Sleep or rest without a bedroll, when inside buildings or under a shelter.


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I'm going to change my position on this - Hinterland should definitely allow the player to lay down anywhere and try to sleep, with or without a bedroll.  However, the action should have a higher than 95% chance of causing the player to immediately fade into the long dark... as they succumb to the fatal combination of cold and fatigue resulting in hypothermia and death in their sleep.  Having a fire or being indoors would keep the RNG at the 95% chance, not having a fire or not being indoors would increase the odds to 99% or above.  Having a bedroll will result in the current situation where it reliably takes about 2 hours for a character at full health to freeze to death if they are not sufficiently warm. 

The actual odds are flexible, of course, as Hinterland sees fit to make them.  The basic idea is to not restrict the player from gambling with their character's life.  Regardless of the dice role, the amount of fatigue reduction from trying to sleep on the snow or on the floor without the benefit of padding the bedroll provides should be minimal regardless of the duration the player opts to sleep.

They should also add a craftable cloth bedroll.  Suggest cost, 30 cloth,  Because it's not made of the same lightweight stuffing as the cloth bedroll found in the world, it should weigh as much as the bearskin one but provide, at maximum, only the same warmth as the found clot one.

Edited by UpUpAway95
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4 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I'm going to change my position on this...

I'll give you credit for changing from "I don't support this, end of discussion" to "yes, lie anywhere with high chance of death".  That's quite open-minded of you. 

I'd say that 95% chance of death would render this pretty useless, and quite unrealistic if you have a fire going inside a shelter, but hey, even that would be a step in the right direction.  Even that would make me go "hey, it's pretty cool that I can just lie down anywhere, let me see what happens if I do".  It's like what the other person said about having the freedom to make your own decision whether you want to take the risk and maybe die. 

A slightly more sophisticated approach would account for how long you sleep, and environmental conditions.  E.g. the longer you sleep while the weather is changing, the higher chance of catching a disease or going into hypothermia or death.  I'd make it so sleeping without a bedroll grants very limited amount of rest, like a fraction of the normal sleep, and after sleeping exposed the character would get exhausted even faster than before.  They could make a lot of interesting things with that.  But it's understandable if that kind of a change is not feasible at this point. 

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8 minutes ago, xenojeff said:

I'll give you credit for changing from "I don't support this, end of discussion" to "yes, lie anywhere with high chance of death".  That's quite open-minded of you. 

I'd say that 95% chance of death would render this pretty useless, and quite unrealistic if you have a fire going inside a shelter, but hey, even that would be a step in the right direction.  Even that would make me go "hey, it's pretty cool that I can just lie down anywhere, let me see what happens if I do".  It's like what the other person said about having the freedom to make your own decision whether you want to take the risk and maybe die. 

A slightly more sophisticated approach would account for how long you sleep, and environmental conditions.  E.g. the longer you sleep while the weather is changing, the higher chance of catching a disease or going into hypothermia or death.  I'd make it so sleeping without a bedroll grants very limited amount of rest, like a fraction of the normal sleep, and after sleeping exposed the character would get exhausted even faster than before.  They could make a lot of interesting things with that.  But it's understandable if that kind of a change is not feasible at this point. 

Rendering it useless is my point.  If the character cannot make a judgement to walk to the nearest bed inside a building or to throw down a bedroll or to make a bedroll if they don't currently have one, then they are already exhibiting the sort of clouded judgment that is symptomatic of onsetting hypothermia... making it very likely that they will die in their sleep.  At any rate, it is highly unlikely that their fatigue would be reduced anyways.  What you want is to undermine the challenge set up by the devs around sleeping in this game.  Your system is not better... just ridiculously easier.  No support.  End discussion.

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50 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

End discussion.

Friend, please stop giving people ultimatums to end the discussion.  It's rude and unnecessary.  If you don't like the discussion, don't respond.

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2 hours ago, pocho said:

Friend, please stop giving people ultimatums to end the discussion.  It's rude and unnecessary.  If you don't like the discussion, don't respond.

OK, I'll stop wording it quite that way.  It's not meant as an ultimatum to other people, but an indication that I don't want to go on repeating myself.

In this discussion, the OP has asserted several times that the player doesn't have options that they do have.  That's my point - The alternatives are already there.  The OP just doesn't like those options because, in one way or a different way, it always comes back to the existing alternatives being too difficult.  So, at the bottom line, the purpose of this is not "role play" because the player can already throw down a bedroll anywhere at any time or pass time anywhere at any time.  There are various costs, risks, and benefits applicable with each different alternative... and all the player is expected to do is choose wisely in order to stay alive.  That's the very basis of this "survival" game.

Addendum upon checking - Re sleeping in a car.  A car without a bedroll in your inventory will give +3C warmth bonus.  If you have a bedroll in your inventory, the warmth bonus will equal that of your bedroll.  This makes sleeping in a car with a bearskin bedroll in your inventory very doable on a reasonably good-weathered night, even if your fire near the car goes out.

ETA:  The Interloper start (without matches and a bedroll) is not realistic... but it is also not compulsory.  People choose to play it BECAUSE they want the added challenge.  Figuring out how to get by without being able to sleep to regen is part of that challenge.

Edited by UpUpAway95
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3 hours ago, xenojeff said:

I'll give you credit for changing from "I don't support this, end of discussion" to "yes, lie anywhere with high chance of death".  That's quite open-minded of you. 

I'd say that 95% chance of death would render this pretty useless, and quite unrealistic if you have a fire going inside a shelter, but hey, even that would be a step in the right direction.  Even that would make me go "hey, it's pretty cool that I can just lie down anywhere, let me see what happens if I do".  It's like what the other person said about having the freedom to make your own decision whether you want to take the risk and maybe die. 

A slightly more sophisticated approach would account for how long you sleep, and environmental conditions.  E.g. the longer you sleep while the weather is changing, the higher chance of catching a disease or going into hypothermia or death.  I'd make it so sleeping without a bedroll grants very limited amount of rest, like a fraction of the normal sleep, and after sleeping exposed the character would get exhausted even faster than before.  They could make a lot of interesting things with that.  But it's understandable if that kind of a change is not feasible at this point. 

Would you be so kind my friend as to tell us which game you played previous to The Long Dark that allowed you to sleep on the bare floor? I played many games including the SIMs which covers bodily functions, hygiene, fitness & depression...they still make you use a bed/couch/bench to sleep in the SIMs.

Seems like The Long Dark would be the first of it's kind to allow sleeping on the floor, or anywhere really....wait they already do. I just remembered all the dead bodies scattered around Great Bear Island that simply sat down for a short nap & went off into The Long Dark.

Seems like the Hinterland devs already fleshed out this idea, & left a trail of dead bodies for you to see what happens when we sleep on the floor/ground.

This poor fellow slept on the floor instead of beds that were 5 feet away.

👇

 

 

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1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

OK, I'll stop wording it quite that way.  It's not meant as an ultimatum to other people, but an indication that I don't want to go on repeating myself.

OK, I see.  When you said "end discussion", you meant "this is the end of my comment" rather than telling others to stop discussing.  Yea, I wouldn't use that phrase because it can give the wrong impression.  All good then.  I misunderstood.  

 

1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

The OP just doesn't like those options because, in one way or a different way, it always comes back to the existing alternatives being too difficult. 

The OP can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think maybe you misunderstand what their issue is.  It's not that they don't like the existing options, or the difficulty of the existing options. 

I think it's the lack of the one option that would make sense to have included, not to make things easier, but to have a more 'complete' survival system from an immersion POV.  If you read jeff's comments, he mentioned "logical consistency" of the mechanics.  I think we all agree that once we figure out where all the bedrolls and vehicles are in the game, we can go and use them.  The issue is that if you lose your bedroll, the game essentially gives you two choices:  keep going until you find one of those pre-determined locations on the map with a bed, or sleep in the snow by building a snow shelter in no time, using 5 cloths.  So jeff is saying, OK instead of being able to lie down anywhere on the ground, then at least add a similar recipe for crafting the same kind of thing as the snow shelter, but for INSIDE, just to make things consistent.  That's all.  Crafting a show shelter takes zero time, and you can sleep outside immediately, but you can't do the same for the inside, and you can't even move that snow shelter inside.  I think that's the biggest inconsistency he's talking about, which doesn't obey the law of physics.  So I can stand outside one meter from the door to sleep in the snow, but I can't do the same inside with the same materials.  

I hope this will help clarify the issue.  It's not about the difficulty, and it's not to make things easier, but it's to make things more logical. 

Edited by pocho
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Hello!

I skimmed through most of the discussion here, but I see a lot of the points that were brought up over the years. I used to be on the side of "Sleeping without bedroll" but over the time have leaned towards the opinion against it. Like others pointed out, the fact that you cant just "rest everywhere" is a pretty lovely game mechanic that actually forces you to make certain decisions and take certain strategies that you would not be forced to do if you had the ability to just sleep everywhere. Yes, sleeping everywhere woudl be convinient. If I were to choose words for The Long dark and describing it, convinient would be the last word I would use.

I noticed the idea "sleeping everywhere with high probability of death" - if this is just a flat-out chance it happens, thats a 100% no, thanks. I am against any sort of RNG system of that kind, that doesnt tie into the mechanics of weather, where certain kind of RNG makes perfect sense. After all, weather changing quite often puts a stop to your plans, and sometimes even forces you to improvise. 

Personally, I like things the way they are, but since there are two camps on this idea, it would not be me if I did not offer a suggestion of a compromise. One that, I think, would more of less satisfy both camps of this discussion.

The makesift bedding of leaves you can find in some caves, I believe it should be buildable under the section "campcraft" just like Snow shelter. It would take material and time and energy to make one, and they could only be built inside the "indoor" areas. That means a cave where the outdoor temperature drops, and where there is no "wind" coeficient. Like the caves they are currently found in. They would be temporary - with a condition much like snow shelter. You can build them, then take them apart next morning, at a loss of material and more time. 

In the end, you can build a snow shelter to do most of those things. The advantage of building one is the extra temperature boost it provides and the unnecesity to have a burning fire to detract predators. The risk would be the weather could change, the temperature may not be enough. Bedding would provide no temp bonus, and you would be succeptible to animal attacks if you did not keep a fire burning closeby. It still brings something new to the game, it has its merits and demerits, but in the end, does not affect the game too much compared to how things are right now. It is also more realistic in a way.

The credit for this idea is not mine entirely, it is based on a collaboration with other forum members. The mechanics of "how it would work" - those are mine now, the initial idea  was a bit different. I will give proper credit in a bit, as an edit to this post. 

 

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On 2/11/2021 at 12:39 AM, Ps4Methuselah said:

Would you be so kind my friend as to tell us which game you played previous to The Long Dark that allowed you to sleep on the bare floor? I played many games including the SIMs which covers bodily functions, hygiene, fitness & depression...they still make you use a bed/couch/bench to sleep in the SIMs.

I'm not resurrecting the topic really, I just wanted to answer this person's very polite question. 

Afaik the SIMs isn't really a survival game and  sleep isn't a core mechanic that's very important to the overall progress in the game, so IMO that's a poor comparison.  On the other hand, Green Hell is a first-person survival game much like TLD, and it allows you to lie down and sleep anywhere even if you dont have a bed, at the risk of negatively affecting the character's sanity level as well as catching diseases.  But that's a much more advanced survival simulator than TLD. (I highly recommend that game btw)

But other games are irrelevant to whether this particular game has certain shortcomings in the context of its own scope and what it's trying to do.  When I say that a mechanic is underdeveloped or incomplete, I'm not necessarily saying "oh but other games have that feature, so this one should have it too".   My reference point is the game itself, in which sleep is a pretty central mechanic to the overall experience, or at least it's 'trying' to be, and as such I feel that the implementation doesn't quite hit the mark by not providing enough self-sufficient methods to sleep at various locations that dont' have beds like barns, some cabins, shelters, caves, or even some exposed places.  That's unless you've hit all the 'right' locations on the map to loot for a bedroll which isn't even craftable in story mode, and if you happen to find one you are forced to hold on to it forever.  That lack of self-sufficiency and being forced to search for loot or else I can't sleep, feels a bit... well, forced, to me.  It's too much hand holding by the game.  In fact, to the people who say that sleeping anywhere would make the game too easy, I would say that being 'forced' to carry that bedroll everywhere  with you, is what actually makes things too easy and one-dimensional, and it makes things like the snow shelter irrelevant.  You just find one bedroll, carry it with you till the end of times, don't lose it, and you're set forever.  To me that's a very simplistic and unimmersive approach that doesn't require much involvement from the player. 

And when I suggest "sleep anywhere", I don't mean "leave everything else the same".  In fact the game would be better if it didn't have all the beds and bedrolls placed at carefully selected locations for the player to find, and instead provided more self-sufficiency.  I don't like the feeling of being too dependent on in-game loot. 

Some of the other physical limitations in the game like you can't equip knives, hatchets, prybars, etc. and freely swing them at stuff, also took some getting used to.  Or that you can't really build much of anything in the game. 

Anyway, when (or if) story mode is ever completed and released, I may go back and finish it provided I still remember this game, but the survival aspect just isn't quite there for me.

Edited by xenojeff
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A simple solution would be to make the pine bough beds something we could craft and then place in one location. Shittier than an actual bedroll or snow shelter, but at least you can rest in a cave if you have nothing. The game already has bough beds placed in some caves so I don't imagine it being too much of a stretch for them to make it a crafting item. It's something I can only see effecting new players starting a interloper run though. 

 

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There are times when the weather is too terrible to move and there is no bed in the place you're around. I've had it.

 

However my bigger thing about not being able to sleep anywhere is let's say you need to climb a rope to get out of a place but you are 100% tired and your bed roll was ruined. It's game over. Your character will refuse to even try. I don't mind dying, infact I like it most of the time, but to die because your character is so pathetic makes me sad.

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58 minutes ago, odizzido said:

you are 100% tired and your bed roll was ruined

 

59 minutes ago, odizzido said:

to die because your character is so pathetic makes me sad.

Not pathetic, but ill-prepared:) this is wilderness, not Interstate 95.🏤🏨

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I would be nice to have a nap in one of those comfy chairs or on a couch tho. Don't see why not.

 

I'd like to be able to sit in the comfy chair in front of the fireplace at Homesteader's Respite, while reading a skill book. Throw in a bottle of scotch while we're at it. Then it would be like my own life simulator lol

Edited by Kranium
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6 hours ago, odizzido said:

There are times when the weather is too terrible to move and there is no bed in the place you're around. I've had it.

Then why wouldn't the player have just brought a bedroll with them?  If the player doesn't have one because they haven't found one yet, then perhaps the player needs to be a little more forward thinking (i.e. try to head to places where a bed is more likely to be found).  This is generally a good rule of thumb even if the player is new to a region, so while previous experience is ideal... it's not necessary.  Most major structures have beds inside (heck, even some remote caves will have a Pine Bough Bed in them).  Besides that, if the player can just manage to stay warm enough and wait out a storm... then they've got another chance to get out there and find a place with a bed.
 

6 hours ago, odizzido said:

However my bigger thing about not being able to sleep anywhere is let's say you need to climb a rope to get out of a place but you are 100% tired and your bed roll was ruined.

I mean why would the player not be paying attention to the condition of their bedroll?
We can avoid wildlife, so if our bedroll is ruined because of an animal attack, I'd tend think that's kind of on the player.
Also, climbing ropes does require some pre-planning.  I think that if a player ends up getting themselves struck on a ledge with no way to get down (or up) and no way to start a fire and take a nap...  I think the issue is more of a lack of planning/preparation on the part of the player.  Why even try to risk a climb if the player isn't reasonably sure they would be able to make it?  For me, when in doubt... I just don't make the attempt.

Just having a ruined bedroll isn't necessarily an automatic game over.
The player just has to plan where their going to try and go a little more carefully.  I think that in this particular scenario, it's seems that the player had just perhaps given up.  It's not automatically a game over... I think it's a challenge for the player to try and overcome and survive though.
 

6 hours ago, odizzido said:

I don't mind dying, infact I like it most of the time, but to die because your character is so pathetic makes me sad.

To me, it's not that the character is being pathetic... In some of the scenarios described it seemed to me that mistakes were maybe made by the player, or perhaps might not have planned very well, or maybe even just having a run of really bad luck; and that caused the character to die.


:coffee::fire::coffee:

On 12/14/2020 at 7:52 PM, ManicManiac said:

My opinion...  that is to say, I think:
This is a game that requires players to pay attention to what they are doing.
It's a game that has real consequences for mistakes (and sometimes just misfortune).
It's a game that was (to use Raph's words), "we don't want to make a game that's going to hold the player's hand."

These are all things that (for me) make it the best game I consistently play (even after 6+ years, I still play almost daily).
That the game is willing to punish mistakes, gives the player a big incentive to always pay attention.

Edited by ManicManiac
Found some errors after the post had locked... so I removed and reposted to correct the typeos I spotted.
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I know you don't think the character is pathetic, we simply don't agree. You feel that we should just play the game how it is, and I dislike when basic human functions are beyond our character's ability. Like sleeping. Or turning your head. Or stepping over a stick. I will forever think of the upper class twit of the year who refused when they got to the match boxes when I play TLD. That's us.

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I think I can empathize with the OP's frustration here, as it might strike someone to be odd and unrealistic - despite myself not frequently having run into the same situation (as I simply just carry a bedroll at all times, ever since I first played 4-5 years ago)

When it comes to reality: It is all about insulation, I believe. With the huge mass, heat capacity and cold temperature of the buildings (or caves) they would just keep sucking up your body warmth, no matter the fire nearby (to warm the stone/wood as well much-much-much more warmth is needed, than warming up the air). As soon as there is a layer of insulation between you and that floor, it will start to make sense sleeping on it - and that layer is represented (quite accurately) with the cloth and bear-fur bedrolls and their degradation (thinning) mechanic. (giving you a bit of warmth)

Realistically you would be losing temperature and/or condition very quickly, without that layer of insulation between you and the floor, I believe to the extent that it would easily counter the healing properties of sleeping. It could be part of the game, that you lay down, start to sleep, but keep losing temperature (at first), but it would need to kill you relatively quickly at most in a few hours, or even less. So I would guess the devs just simplified this mechanic to simply make it not possible. Instead of making it possible, then let the player believe it to be safe, and then kill them. (One could argue they did a favor by limiting it). In the jungle, the mud you sleep in is not below-freezing, so it does make sense there (a'la Green Hell). I did IRL sleep on the floor as well, but never in freezing temperatures, and I do not think anyone who did sleep on the floor in freezing temperatures is here to tell us. (please, if you did, correct me being wrong)

At the same time I was wondering "why cannot we sleep on the hides, or even better, make a bed out of them. Maybe, two bearskins and some wood could make a perfect bed." Oh wait...
But maybe the "wolf-skin is also fine, just dropped on the floor... at least if it is completely dry? or the deer/bunny too? and some places do have a carpet on the floor too" so I guess that could be done, at least in theory. But then you would need to decide how many of these you need to lay on the floor, how to tile them, and then check whether they cover enough area to keep the survivor fully safe, and what if it only covers 47% of body area...? I believe that would just be too complicated both for programming it and playing it (=not fun).

Maybe it is simpler, and more realistic to have to have some sort of pre-made insulation for sleeping safe?  (I do like the compromise of @Mroz4k as well - to create a makeshift bed akin to the improvised hand/head wraps, maybe without introducing a new resource of pine-branches, and rely on the existing ones such as furs/cloth, with a "high" cost in condition degradation/lost material)

About rage-quitting: I think, giving the game a bit more credit (given its massive fan-base) - despite some, at-first-odd mechanics, can still lead to a love affair down the road. But of course it is for everyone to decide on their own.

Edited by AdamvR
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sleeping on a floor, even a relatively warm one, is very cold. I've tried it. Of course I didn't have on a full set of winter clothes. If I had I would have felt fine I am sure, at least on the floor I was on.

Honestly we should probably be getting a -warmth penalty even when using a bedroll in a cave. The bedroll will help, but that floor is going to still be extremely cold. Only the magic houses should get a bonus. Not that it matters there anyways since they're magically warm anyways.

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I get the core issue with not being able to sleep anywhere. And I agree that perhaps, having to carry a bedroll everywhere can also be a bit riddiculous. Like I pointed out - I think a way to fix that is that players should be able to build a Pine bought bedding themselves. And making the existing ones be degradeable same as snow shelters. That makes carrying bedroll still relevant as it is just less resource demanding, and not a 1-2 time use bedding. 

Still, overall, the game is not hopeless this way. And you can sleep "everywhere" in the game, more less. It is just that some places are easier to sleep in then others, and in order to sleep everywhere, you need to spend some resources to make it happen - by building a snow shelter. I know you cant build it just everywhere, but I think reasonably everywhere you will find snow close-by to allow for building it.

I saw the argument with being too tired to finish that last stretch of rope climbing... but if you dont have a bedroll, and just cant reach  the top, that is bad planning on the player´s part. Still, it is not something you cant salvage. One can still drop the excessive tools they dont need for immidiate survival, and only keep enough things on them to eat up, drink up, clothes and cloth and sticks to make the snowshelter. Then, you can pretty safely climb down even when exhausted, and just leave the gear lying there on the ledge. You climb down, rest up, and try again at full strenght the next day. That is assuming you cant build the snow shelter there on the ledge.

Now you cant find the sticks to build it up there, but it is reasonable enough to assume you will have the sticks to craft it. If not, climb down and hope you can find enough to build one. Break down torches in your inventory if you must.

Dont have cloth? Well, break down some of your clothes. It sounds insane... but its better then dying. Use that to build the snow shelter.

Sometimes, survival is not pretty and you have to make sacrifices.

The mention of "green hell" - I have not played the game, but if it allows sleeping on the ground, in amazonian forest, it is missing something very important in terms of survival basics. You will never seen anyone sleep on the ground in rainforest, its just too dangerous. The body heat attracts all manner of poisonous insects, snakes, and such. Every survival expert I have ever known would build some sort of elevated bed to sleep in for that reason alone. Elevated sleeping location is a common theme for survival in rainforest, tropical island and marshland survival. Other then that, it looks pretty cool. Might give it a try some time.

Edited by Mroz4k
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"They did allow drinking unclean water from toilet tanks, so that shows you that they can do things like that, and they should.  "

 

In response to Pocho, all toilets have about 1+ gallon of clean drinking water in their toilet. Not in the bowl, notice when you take water from toilets there's never water in the bowl. Its under the lid on the back of the toilet and potable. So yea realism is a part of this game, take a cup and try some

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I think the addition of an on-the-spot craftable bed would improve the game.

Yes, there are solutions to the problem of finding yourself out in the boonies facing death if you can't rest, but you don't a bedroll - the snowshelter being the obvious one.

But it does lead to some frustratingly unintuitive situations, like building a snowshelter to sleep in that's right outside a cave or trailer where you'd have been much warmer. Situations like this remind you that you are fighting for the survival of a game character against artificial game rules, rather than being immersed in the scenario of being out in the wilderness trying to survive against nature - and I think reducing the instances of those "reminders" generally makes the game better.

Edited by Pillock
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I just think bedroll should be top priority to keep in good shape if going out on an adventure. Leaving house with almost ruined bedroll or not having one at all is equivalent to leaving matches at home.(or other means of fire starting)

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9 hours ago, Pillock said:

But it does lead to some frustratingly unintuitive situations, like building a snowshelter to sleep in that's right outside a cave or trailer where you'd have been much warmer. Situations like this remind you that you are fighting for the survival of a game character against artificial game rules, rather than being immersed in the scenario of being out in the wilderness trying to survive against nature - and I think reducing the instances of those "reminders" generally makes the game better.

Yes to this.

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