A New Difficulty--REALISTIC


Cosmoline

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We've discussed the potential to tweak Pilgrim mode into something more realistic, but I can also see the purpose for having a contemplative mode. So what I'd suggest is a new mode, REALISTIC. The features would include:

--Wildlife that usually runs from you, except that if you challenge a wolf over a kill it will probably fight you and wolves or bears have a small chance of coming after you. And an enraged Fluffy would still be there some of the time--to keep us on our toes at the dam.

--Weather is more of a challenge. The current game tends to give a lot of 2-3 hour storms and temps that cycle predictably. Realistic mode would include WHITE OUT BLIZZARDS that last for several days, DEEP COLD FRONTS that settle in and take the temp down to -40, -50 c. and even colder for a week or more, CHINOOK WINDS that bring rain and cause the player's lovely furs to get wet and frozen, and ideally snow accumulation--though that last one may exceed the capacity of the programming. Having lived north of sixty for many years now, I can assure you that avoiding a winter storm is not as simple as going back to bed for two hours :D Very few people are killed by wildlife, but a great many are killed by getting snowed in and frozen.

--Food demands are lower, but preparation is more difficult. You can absolutely botch the job--for example by cutting into the guts and befouling the meat. As old Alex Supertramp found out, having a dead moose does not guarantee meat. I'd suggest a percent-chance difficulty mechanic for butchering and preparing the game just like starting fires and repairing clothes that gets better with time. This should be easy to implement. So you stand a fair chance of losing a certain KG of meat on the butchery end, then another roll when you're cooking/preparing it when you can screw it up. Over time your character will get better just as with sewing.

--Crafting should also require a skill roll. And yes this would mean you could screw up your lovely wolf coat and have to dismantle it. But that's realistic, as anyone who's tried to craft clothing from leather and furs can tell you.

--Movement should be slower. I'm amazed by how fast the characters can run through snow without ski or snow shoes. Slowing this down and making running a temporary feature based on a stamina bar would make it tougher to escape weather conditions. Moving around in the cold and in even a small amount of snow cover is difficult.

--Shorter days. This is a reality of winter in the cold north. The daylight hours don't have to change with the season, but at least make them run maybe from 11 AM to 4 PM or so.

--Liquid water is death incarnate. I'd still like to see the mechanic implemented for overflow around the lakes and streams, but really water needs to be a major enemy. In the back country if your feet get soaked in overflow you stand a fair chance of losing toes or worse. Cold water, even on warm sunny days, remains a very serious killer in Alaska and all over Canada. If you fall through the ice, there should be a good chance of simply dying. Struggling to get out should be at least as difficult as fighting off a wolf.

There are other things to make it more realistic that could be implemented game-wide such as proper repairs for the rifle and tools, using rendered bear fat as an essential tool lubricant, and so on. But the main point would be to create a mode for people who really want to battle the elements and try to survive, as opposed to run from wolves.

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I really like this idea as well. Only thing I would add is to make wildlife much more scarce. Seeing a field full of deer and rabbits takes something away from the desperation and isolation. That said, seeing a wolf dropping his third or fourth deer in one small area does give the world a bit of a surreal madness, which plays into the whole strange apocalypse, but I think overall, in this thread, less is more.

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EXACTLY.

Why can we run through snow drifts, for kilometers, with wild abandon? 1) The snow would bog us down and 2) We would sweat, leading to a quick death due to hypothermia.

Why can't I clean my rifle, or sharpen my knife/hatchet, bringing it back to working condition? Why do I need wood and scrap metal (hahahaha what?) to repair something?

Why do animal hides come pre-tanned? If they aren't tanned, then when we make a nice wolf-fur coat to wear around, it should freeze.

Why are houses apparently insulated? If I build a fire inside of a house (where people used to live, sleep and eat), I shouldn't die from hypothermia in my sleep....

And so on and so forth. This game is "authentic", not really "realistic".

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--Wildlife - Agree

( would add to the fun too, because it is actually totally not me when I go out from my shelter and I have 3 wolfs shot down in front of my "house")

--Weather - TOTALLY agree, weather should be the enemy, not only wolfs.

--Shorter days. - I will agree if they implement the majestic aurora as a usable light source at night (also would add a lot of fun)

These are great ideas Cosmoline thank you, but the rest supposed to be clarified a bit more, simplicity is still an important factor.

-- "make wildlife much more scarce" - Absolutely agree! Wildlife is gold!

Thanks Monsterguts173!

Please clarify your suggestions Boston123, what you wrote sounds like you are offended by the first steps of an alpha game, however with your help it may be something amaizing, since I think you can add one or two things instead of just saying this is bad how it is now.

Heya, keep up the great work.

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I'm glad this was posted, as it saves me from making a long one myself.

I just finished 50 days w/ Silent Hunter on Pilgrim. I could go another 50 without batting an eyelash. There is so much loot, I am so warm and toasty. I have learned to drive dear to a wolf, let it get the kill and immediately rush it which scares it off and leaves me with ~19lbs of fresh meat, 4 leathers and 2 guts.

I left my Coastal Highway base and stumbled across the Farmhouse in PV by chance. A dayhike turned into a 35-day stay with more goods than I knew what to do with. I probably ate 3-4 full deer. It all became too easy, but I want to play that mode because of the man-against-the-elements kind of thing. Sure, wolves and Bears are the elements too, but I would prefer a more realistic, and yet more difficult mode.

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I like this idea. It would be another experience altogether--It's not exactly a 'difficulty' setting, its almost a different game mode. I'd like to see additional Achievements for the different Game Modes/difficulties as well..

Regarding the amount of suggested daylight. 11AM - 4PM would certainly make things more difficult. Ultimately it depends on where the Devs are placing the game-- i.e. how far north. Based on the current firewood tree species in game--western cedar and Douglas-fir (based on the 'hardwood-like' classification)-- the setting can't actually be that far north. These trees are limited to the southern 2/3 of BC (I posted a map in another thread).

The shortest days in winter at the northern end of their range are around 9AM - 4PM. The easiest way to maintain accuracy and broaden the possible geographic area would be to change the types of firewood available to something more widepsread in the Canadian north, e.g. change softwood(cedar) to spruce or pine, change hardwood (Douglas-fir) to be birch (an actual hardwood). Of course, this a nitpicky detail :)

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--Wildlife - Agree

( would add to the fun too, because it is actually totally not me when I go out from my shelter and I have 3 wolfs shot down in front of my "house")

--Weather - TOTALLY agree, weather should be the enemy, not only wolfs.

--Shorter days. - I will agree if they implement the majestic aurora as a usable light source at night (also would add a lot of fun)

These are great ideas Cosmoline thank you, but the rest supposed to be clarified a bit more, simplicity is still an important factor.

-- "make wildlife much more scarce" - Absolutely agree! Wildlife is gold!

Thanks Monsterguts173!

Please clarify your suggestions Boston123, what you wrote sounds like you are offended by the first steps of an alpha game, however with your help it may be something amaizing, since I think you can add one or two things instead of just saying this is bad how it is now.

Heya, keep up the great work.

In real life cold-weather survival, making sure you avoid overheating is almost as important as making sure you stay warm. If you work too hard while wearing multiple layers of clothing, like we do in-game, you will, of course, warm up and probably start to sweat. Once your under-layers of clothing absorb this sweat, they lose whatever insulating properties they once had, and you are almost guaranteed to develop critical hypothermia as a result. This is why outdoorsmen use the "Layering system": If you are cold, you put on more layers. Once you warm up, you undo a layer until you can work without sweating. If you get cold again, put the layers back on.

In real life, I've climbed mountains wearing little more than an undershirt, a wool sweater, a cap, gloves and a scarf (and pants and socks, of course!). Climbing the mountain took a lot of energy and work, and I didn't want to be soaked in sweat 3000 feet above sea level with 50mph winds roaring by. I was fine, plenty warm actually.

In game, I pretty much run everywhere, as I don't (yet) have to worry about overheating, nor do I get slowed down by the snow. If we had to worry about overheating due to sprinting, or get bogged down in drifts of snow, I bet players would play the game slower and more cautiously, instead of sprinting from the Camp Office, to Trappers Homestead, to Forestry Lookout, then to the Hydro Dam like I've seen in some Let's Plays. Players would either travel along frozen waterways, where the wind would clear away drifts (Frozen rivers are known as the "Highways of the North" in winter-bound Alaska and Canada), or improvise/find/make a pair of snowshoes.

I've made a thread about the somewhat ridiculous items needed to repair tools and such, in this very subforum. I suggest you read it, to get a better understanding of my views on item degradation.

AS for animal hides, making clothing-worthy-leather is actually a rather involved process, taking a lot of time and some know-how. You have to remove all of the fat and flesh from the hide, then stretch it and let it dry. This makes "rawhide"m which is not suitable for most clothing. Then, you make a slurry out of the brains of the animal, and rub it liberally into the fleshy-side of the hide. THEN, you work, stretch, and fold the hide until it is soft, then you let it sit in some smoke over a fire. Days, if not weeks, of real-time work go into "primitive" leather-making.

If I am bundled up in a bed, with a mattress and sheets covering me, inside of a house, there is practically no way that I should die from hypothermia, fire or no fire. Will the inside of a house get cold (even extremely so) if there is no current source of heat? Yes. Will I be 100X better off staying inside the house than outside, even without a fire? Yes. This is because you get out of the wind. Hell, even a fireplace will absorb and release heat over time, warming the interior of the building.

Anecdote time: my troop did a winter overnight in one of our local camp's cabins. The cabin was uninsulated: just "barn board" over posts. We had a nice fire in the fireplace all day, and let it die down about 2 hours before we went to bed. The temperature at 1am was -15 F, with wind chill. We woke up in the morning to a nice warm fireplace. Was the space by the door and windows cold? Yes, but that was why we slept beside the fireplace.

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Having spent quite a bit of time in a cabin (bare board, no insulation) on an island in Canada I can tell you that the kinds of stoves in the game will only really warm up the area about 10' around the stove. It's actually fairly common to have the stove a bit further into the room to increase the livable area.

And yes sweat is death in cold weather. If they had a realistic mode (actually I'd rather in all modes) running would increase your caloric intake by 25% and your perceived temp buy 10 deg C. If you are exerting yourself and the perceived temp is >10C you should sweat and the cold metric should increase to the highest level.

And hey for the animal hides...You can tan and soften if you use urine :)

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[glow=red]Suggestions: Weather, Body temperature, Multiple layers of cloth, Equipment, Hunting, Skinning/crafting, Terrain, Movement, Hypothermia, Frozen body parts and permanent damage[/glow]

In real life cold-weather survival, making sure you avoid overheating is almost as important as making sure you stay warm. If you work too hard while wearing multiple layers of clothing, like we do in-game, you will, of course, warm up and probably start to sweat. Once your under-layers of clothing absorb this sweat, they lose whatever insulating properties they once had, and you are almost guaranteed to develop critical hypothermia as a result. This is why outdoorsmen use the "Layering system": If you are cold, you put on more layers. Once you warm up, you undo a layer until you can work without sweating. If you get cold again, put the layers back on.

In real life, I've climbed mountains wearing little more than an undershirt, a wool sweater, a cap, gloves and a scarf (and pants and socks, of course!). Climbing the mountain took a lot of energy and work, and I didn't want to be soaked in sweat 3000 feet above sea level with 50mph winds roaring by. I was fine, plenty warm actually.

In game, I pretty much run everywhere, as I don't (yet) have to worry about overheating, nor do I get slowed down by the snow. If we had to worry about overheating due to sprinting, or get bogged down in drifts of snow, I bet players would play the game slower and more cautiously, instead of sprinting from the Camp Office, to Trappers Homestead, to Forestry Lookout, then to the Hydro Dam like I've seen in some Let's Plays. Players would either travel along frozen waterways, where the wind would clear away drifts (Frozen rivers are known as the "Highways of the North" in winter-bound Alaska and Canada), or improvise/find/make a pair of snowshoes.

[align=center]So lets think binary a bit, you suggest to have a "Body heat/temperature" and multiple layers of cloth like "tier 1, 2, 3" also movement speed supposed to depend from "terrain and equipment" (I personally believe these will make the game better once we have larger maps and ruthless weather).[/align]

I've made a thread about the somewhat ridiculous items needed to repair tools and such, in this very subforum. I suggest you read it, to get a better understanding of my views on item degradation.

[align=center]I will look forward to it :D[/align]

AS for animal hides, making clothing-worthy-leather is actually a rather involved process, taking a lot of time and some know-how. You have to remove all of the fat and flesh from the hide, then stretch it and let it dry. This makes "rawhide"m which is not suitable for most clothing. Then, you make a slurry out of the brains of the animal, and rub it liberally into the fleshy-side of the hide. THEN, you work, stretch, and fold the hide until it is soft, then you let it sit in some smoke over a fire. Days, if not weeks, of real-time work go into "primitive" leather-making.

[align=center]So basically the quality of the gathered hide and leather depends on the invested time, consequence: you should be able to take the body somewhere safe where you can spare half a day working on it, or if you are skilled enough you can skin and prepare them locally within a few hours, and make useful leather out of the stuff later with a tanning table or with proper tools, am I right?[/align]

If I am bundled up in a bed, with a mattress and sheets covering me, inside of a house, there is practically no way that I should die from hypothermia, fire or no fire. Will the inside of a house get cold (even extremely so) if there is no current source of heat? Yes. Will I be 100X better off staying inside the house than outside, even without a fire? Yes. This is because you get out of the wind. Hell, even a fireplace will absorb and release heat over time, warming the interior of the building.

[align=center]Sure, understood, that needs tweaking, but here is something for you: My condition goes down to 5% from cold and freezing, I barely reach the small hut at the end of the road, and after 12 hours of sleeping I can continue my trip without frozen fingers or any kind of permanent or at least long lasting damage? I do not think so.[/align]

Anecdote time: my troop did a winter overnight in one of our local camp's cabins. The cabin was uninsulated: just "barn board" over posts. We had a nice fire in the fireplace all day, and let it die down about 2 hours before we went to bed. The temperature at 1am was -15 F, with wind chill. We woke up in the morning to a nice warm fireplace. Was the space by the door and windows cold? Yes, but that was why we slept beside the fireplace.

Thank you for the proper answer, you actually surprised me :mrgreen:

By the way, that is what I call a good job, thank you for sharing these!

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--Movement should be slower. I'm amazed by how fast the characters can run through snow without ski or snow shoes. Slowing this down and making running a temporary feature based on a stamina bar would make it tougher to escape weather conditions. Moving around in the cold and in even a small amount of snow cover is difficult.

I'm not so sure that movement should be slowed. I haven't tried to figure out what the exact ratio is, but consider the fact that time moves much more quickly in the game than in real life, so while it seems like you're moving quite fast playing the game, it would appear much slower if the game occurred in real time.

I like the idea of running requiring a stamina bar or similar mechanic. Stamina could even be something that would improve for your character over time. After all, if you spend enough time running in real life, you'll be able to do it for longer and longer at a stretch.

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Boston123 has some great input. I guess the question is how detailed the devs are willing to be. Are the current crafting mechanics a stop-gap for something more realistic? I guess I don't know. It would be neat to see something less bizarre than taking pieces of firewood and scrap metal to repair an Enfield and a knife.

That's a good point about time compression, and of course there's the boredom factor if it's too sluggishly real.

its the player's fault why he she keeps dying is because he she doesnt want to learn the game but rather relies on looting in houses. no to this suggestion.

It's nothing to do with difficulty. I think I'm still in the top 30 for Voyageur in fact. The danger is that by relying on amped up wolves, we just have a new icy zombie game where the wolves are the zombies. I'm seeing that start to develop, and I guess that's what folks are demanding. That's fine, but particularly if the game heads that direction I'd like to see a realism mode or some kind of tweaked Pilgrim mode for those of us who love TLD but are a bit sick of the endless "gamey" wolf dodging.

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When it comes to games like this call me casual. I love more than anything to explore game worlds but I still want some immersion so I find the whole hunger thirst thing to be just to my liking but I would like to see a level where it's live and let live unless I try I try to steal a wolf or a bear's kill. The animal should then actually take offense instead of just running away but as long as I leave him alone he can leave me to my explorations perhaps doing a bit of growling to warn me off if I get too close. I would like to see an actual bear as well in the pilgrim level instead of just reading about needing them at the crafting tables. Not that I actually need a bear skin sleeping bag it would just add to the immersion of the game for me. Perhaps a pacifist like myself could find a dead bear or wolf from time to time. Deer and rabbits aren't the only things that succumb to the cold. I find it a little unrealistic that there seem to be more animals in some places than there are trees. (figure of speech) When exploring or hunting seeing a huge buck or bear or wolf should be a treat or matter of life and death, not an "Oh there goes another one" moment. I would like to be able to fashion a few more things at the work tables. I am presently running around in my long underpants because I ran out of material and my last pair of jeans were ruined before I managed to find any more. The picture of myself running around in the Canadian wilderness wearing my newly made buckskin boots rabbit skin mittens and the best coat I've been able to find and one stubborn button flap of my long underwear loose and flapping in the wind is a constant cause of entertainment for me as I look to see that I've made it yet another day living and exploring and coming home to the trappers cabin.

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The danger is that by relying on amped up wolves, we just have a new icy zombie game where the wolves are the zombies.

players are just overreacting how difficult the wolves are, theyre not. i read a post here about a guide to wolves, read that guide and learn from it.

You're missing the point. He's not saying they're too difficult--he's saying having too many wolves breaks the immersion of the game because wolf dodging feels like a video game rather than survival.

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This is a thread about requesting a game mode without so many wolves. It's understandable that in the course of discussing this request, people would explain why they don't like the current amount of wolves.

So, one more time--It's not about how hard or easy the wolves are, its about wanting the game to challenge survival without resorting to increasing the number of encounters with zombie substitutes.

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same thing. i read the guide and it tackles evading a pack of wolves as well. i dont care if he/shes in the 30th place in voyageur or whatever achievement he/shes in, its all the same if he/she complains theres too many wolves that simply means its hard for him/her. read the guide to wolves here on the post somewhere and stop crying about how many in packs the wolves are, jeez.

Hey did you even play this game before 1.82?

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I'm glad this was posted, as it saves me from making a long one myself.

I just finished 50 days w/ Silent Hunter on Pilgrim. I could go another 50 without batting an eyelash. There is so much loot, I am so warm and toasty. I have learned to drive dear to a wolf, let it get the kill and immediately rush it which scares it off and leaves me with ~19lbs of fresh meat, 4 leathers and 2 guts.

I left my Coastal Highway base and stumbled across the Farmhouse in PV by chance. A dayhike turned into a 35-day stay with more goods than I knew what to do with. I probably ate 3-4 full deer. It all became too easy, but I want to play that mode because of the man-against-the-elements kind of thing. Sure, wolves and Bears are the elements too, but I would prefer a more realistic, and yet more difficult mode.

If they add a wet meter. They can drastically make it more difficult. Hunger is a silly meter because you can evade satisfying it for very long. Drink is another meter which is really easy to satisfy. Cold is a dangerous one because it not only limits your mobility it can kill you in a few hours or less if you are already weakened. Wet should be very similar to cold but only accelerate the cold meter progress.

Lastly if they implemented realistic water containers you'd actually have to find containers to put water in or make them some how and that would be a task and a time sink and make the drink meter actually matter. Right now you can make a truck load of water and get all the free bottles you want from the environment lol. All you need is wood, (free) and time (mostly free)

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I really like this idea as well. Only thing I would add is to make wildlife much more scarce. Seeing a field full of deer and rabbits takes something away from the desperation and isolation. That said, seeing a wolf dropping his third or fourth deer in one small area does give the world a bit of a surreal madness, which plays into the whole strange apocalypse, but I think overall, in this thread, less is more.

Agree, hunting isn't really hunting when you see constant wildlife everywhere.

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Again, this isn't about the difficulty of wolf dodging or even about how many wolves there are on a map. I've been dodging this or that enemy since the arcades of the 80's. Been there, done that. It's about whether TLD sandbox should be a choice between either dodging wolves/zombies or no interaction at all. I think a mode where there was greater realistic interaction with the arctic would be a more interesting challenge. The wolves could be zombies or grunt soldiers in the current sandbox--they function as dangers to be ducked and avoided or occasionally confronted in classic survival horror fashion. You can find hundreds, maybe thousands of games that do something like that on the market. But none to date have actually presented us with the horrors of having to keep from dying in the wilderness in street clothes at forty below zero. Remember, "To Build A Fire" was about trying to get a fire going in the deep cold after stepping into overflow, not about the wolves. Like I said, liquid water is death in the deep cold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Build_a_Fire

I think the problem here is, again, with gamers. The enemy is us. So many demand a hardcore challenge and excitement of ducking, dodging, running and scavenging. And it is quite fun--for a little while. But so many other games already do this, and TLD has the potential to be something far greater. At moments of my long plays it's actually broken through to the status of art. Having the wolves to fight from time to time is great. Having to plot your course to avoid their back-and-forth "guard duty" patrols is just silly. Both because even crazed, lone wolves don't do that and because it turns the game into furry zombies on ice.

I'm not asking to get rid of all the fur zombies, I'm saying this is alpha so let's try something different. Maybe it will be a big bore, but there would still be Voyageur and Stalker for those wanting more of the traditional gaming experience. And surely now is the time to try something radical. Something few other games have done before--present a serious challenge to the players without relying on the tropes and conventions established in other games. No more fur zombies, no more meta gaming by learning their programmed routes, no more looting all the things. Just you, some basic equipment and the shock of forty below base temp and a monster storm minutes away that will force you into shelter for four days straight or kill you outright if you can't find any.

By increasing realism, the devs would be making weather and water the real foes. And believe me it can get much, much, MUCH worse than anything currently in the game even on STALKER. I've been in north winds so strong I couldn't walk into them at all and had to tack back and forth to make headway. I've experienced cold air that rolls down off Denali and settles along the Big Su for weeks at a time, short-circuiting most modern technology and threatening to flash freeze any bit of skin you negligently leave exposed. You don't just need a toque, you need a bala, proper mittens and a carefully prepared layering of clothing for the conditions and tasks at hand. And I've had to balance the need for warmth against the ever-present threat of sweat. A nuisance in civilization, but something far more dangerous if you're stranded out there. The current game just gives you a little taste of that while you're ducking wolves. It does not give you both barrels like the arctic does in real life. Nor does it simulate the real-world difficulties of turning a huge dead animal into food for a month. Or of finding some kind of carbs when all you can find is meat and more meat.

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Instead of having a simple increasing difficulty scale, one way might be to look at it like this, which is where I think this thread is heading... I've loosely placed the existing modes as they sit now (This is just conceptual!) A new mode could fill in the gap.

[table=width][tr=text-align][td=border][/td][td=border][/td][td=border]Wolves (#/diff)[/td][td=border][/td][/tr]

[tr=text-align][td=border][/td][td=border][/td][td=border]Less[/td][td=border]More[/td][/tr]

[tr=text-align][td=border]Environment [/td][td=border] Less[/td][td=border] Pilgrim [/td][td=border]Voyageur[/td][/tr]

[tr=text-align][td=border]Difficulty [/td][td=border] More[/td][td=border]???[/td][td=border]Stalker[/td][/tr][/table]

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Instead of having a simple increasing difficulty scale, one way might be to look at it like this, which is where I think this thread is heading... I've loosely placed the existing modes as they sit now (This is just conceptual!) A new mode could fill in the gap.

[table=width][tr=text-align][td=border][/td][td=border][/td][td=border]Wolves (#/diff)[/td][td=border][/td][/tr]

[tr=text-align][td=border][/td][td=border][/td][td=border]Less[/td][td=border]More[/td][/tr]

[tr=text-align][td=border]Environment [/td][td=border] Less[/td][td=border] Pilgrim [/td][td=border]Voyageur[/td][/tr]

[tr=text-align][td=border]Difficulty [/td][td=border] More[/td][td=border]???[/td][td=border]Stalker[/td][/tr][/table]

No idea how to read this.

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Again, this isn't about the difficulty of wolf dodging or even about how many wolves there are on a map. I've been dodging this or that enemy since the arcades of the 80's. Been there, done that. It's about whether TLD sandbox should be a choice between either dodging wolves/zombies or no interaction at all. I think a mode where there was greater realistic interaction with the arctic would be a more interesting challenge. The wolves could be zombies or grunt soldiers in the current sandbox--they function as dangers to be ducked and avoided or occasionally confronted in classic survival horror fashion. You can find hundreds, maybe thousands of games that do something like that on the market. But none to date have actually presented us with the horrors of having to keep from dying in the wilderness in street clothes at forty below zero. Remember, "To Build A Fire" was about trying to get a fire going in the deep cold after stepping into overflow, not about the wolves. Like I said, liquid water is death in the deep cold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Build_a_Fire

I think the problem here is, again, with gamers. The enemy is us. So many demand a hardcore challenge and excitement of ducking, dodging, running and scavenging. And it is quite fun--for a little while. But so many other games already do this, and TLD has the potential to be something far greater. At moments of my long plays it's actually broken through to the status of art. Having the wolves to fight from time to time is great. Having to plot your course to avoid their back-and-forth "guard duty" patrols is just silly. Both because even crazed, lone wolves don't do that and because it turns the game into furry zombies on ice.

I'm not asking to get rid of all the fur zombies, I'm saying this is alpha so let's try something different. Maybe it will be a big bore, but there would still be Voyageur and Stalker for those wanting more of the traditional gaming experience. And surely now is the time to try something radical. Something few other games have done before--present a serious challenge to the players without relying on the tropes and conventions established in other games. No more fur zombies, no more meta gaming by learning their programmed routes, no more looting all the things. Just you, some basic equipment and the shock of forty below base temp and a monster storm minutes away that will force you into shelter for four days straight or kill you outright if you can't find any.

By increasing realism, the devs would be making weather and water the real foes. And believe me it can get much, much, MUCH worse than anything currently in the game even on STALKER. I've been in north winds so strong I couldn't walk into them at all and had to tack back and forth to make headway. I've experienced cold air that rolls down off Denali and settles along the Big Su for weeks at a time, short-circuiting most modern technology and threatening to flash freeze any bit of skin you negligently leave exposed. You don't just need a toque, you need a bala, proper mittens and a carefully prepared layering of clothing for the conditions and tasks at hand. And I've had to balance the need for warmth against the ever-present threat of sweat. A nuisance in civilization, but something far more dangerous if you're stranded out there. The current game just gives you a little taste of that while you're ducking wolves. It does not give you both barrels like the arctic does in real life. Nor does it simulate the real-world difficulties of turning a huge dead animal into food for a month. Or of finding some kind of carbs when all you can find is meat and more meat.

Very well said, also love the Jack London Story. To build a Fire. That is what TLD was before 1.82, now it is more "THE EDGE" only instead of one blood thirsty bear, it is dozens of meandering wolves with a bad attitude and shitty eyesight.

Indeed I would welcome a more To build A Fire like game. More realism based on environment and effects of hypothermia and moisture and sweating etc.

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+1 (thanks for the Jack London story)

I preferred the Defoe: Robinson Crusoe while I was a kid (8-16), but since that Jack London beats them.

I wonder if Mr. Lierop wants to give us a bit of both, for young ones who wish to learn a few things they can actually give a try in real life when they are out in the woods, and something more deep for the mature age about how brutally simple can be to die from stupidity in a wet and cold climate.

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... I'm not so sure that movement should be slowed. I haven't tried to figure out what the exact ratio is, but consider the fact that time moves much more quickly in the game than in real life, so while it seems like you're moving quite fast playing the game, it would appear much slower if the game occurred in real time.

I like the idea of running requiring a stamina bar or similar mechanic. Stamina could even be something that would improve for your character over time. After all, if you spend enough time running in real life, you'll be able to do it for longer and longer at a stretch.

This is very true. A round-trip all-day trek in CH only covered a little over two miles (3.5 km), so the character isn't moving nearly as fast as it appears.

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