Limited clothing repair

[Vareta]

I have absolutely no idea if this was ever suggested but here it goes. 
 

Right now clothing basically lasts forever, no matter how many times you get attacked by animals, you can simply repair it. I’ve never sewed anything before, but I’m pretty sure that after 100 repairs it would look like something straight out of Frankenstein.

Basically what I propose is that clothing have a limited amount of condition you can repair before ruining. This maximum amount would vary with your sewing skill, and the tier of the clothes, for example, an expedition parka would have more repairs than a ski jacket.

This would imply that, eventually, you would be forced to use animal derived clothing entirely, though this would obviously take a lot of time. Also this would promote the hoarding of clothing, as I find myself in late game not picking up looted clothes at all because I simply don’t need them.

[UpUpAway95]

It's not really an issue since the warmth and/or protection value of the crafted clothing makes it quite attractive.  The "better" manufactured clothing doesn't spawn if Baseline Resource Availability is set to "Low" (as in Interloper); and combined with the world getting colder over time setting (which is also high in Loper), players are pretty much compelled to make and use a bear hide coat (or two).  Also, even  clothing in perfect repair can be instantly be ruined during an attack or fall ( and animals can occasionally attack even when they are set to Passive).

Invoking a clothing repair limit would work counter to the current sewing level-up, which repairs clothing by a greater percentage the higher the player's skill.  Furthermore, there is no craftable alternative for underwear or socks currently in the game.

Edited December 28, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[Vareta]

4 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

It's not really an issue since the warmth and/or protection value of the crafted clothing makes it quite attractive.  The "better" manufactured clothing doesn't spawn if Baseline Resource Availability is set to "Low" (as in Interloper); and combined with the world getting colder over time setting (which is also high in Loper), players are pretty much compelled to make and use a bear hide coat (or two).  Also, even  clothing in perfect repair can be instantly be ruined during an attack or fall ( and animals can occasionally attack even when they are set to Passive).

Invoking a clothing repair limit would work counter to the current sewing level-up, which repairs clothing by a greater percentage the higher the player's skill.  Furthermore, there is no craftable alternative for underwear or socks currently in the game.

I disagree with you. First off, your only focus is on one difficulty type, Interloper, in which yes, crafted clothes are a priority, but I think you missed the fact that the limited repair would also apply to this clothing type.

Also, I do not see how this would conflict with the base sewing skill, when you level up, the amount of regained condition on each repair increases, and with this so does the maximum amount of condition you can repair, in one piece of clothing, increase. These two modifiers do not interfere.

About the socks and underwear, because they are an inside layer, the rate at which they degrade is staggeringly slow. As such it would take an obscene amount of time to ruin every single piece of socks and underwear in the map. So it’s just a matter of finding them.

 

[UpUpAway95]

8 minutes ago, Vareta said:

I disagree with you. First off, your only focus is on one difficulty type, Interloper, in which yes, crafted clothes are a priority, but I think you missed the fact that the limited repair would also apply to this clothing type.

Also, I do not see how this would conflict with the base sewing skill, when you level up, the amount of regained condition on each repair increases, and with this so does the maximum amount of condition you can repair, in one piece of clothing, increase. These two modifiers do not interfere.

About the socks and underwear, because they are an inside layer, the rate at which they degrade is staggeringly slow. As such it would take an obscene amount of time to ruin every single piece of socks and underwear in the map. So it’s just a matter of finding them.

 

You're the one to stated that you wanted this to "force us to use animal derived clothing entirely."  That's not possible because we don't have an "animal-derived" alternative to underwear and socks.  Your statement was not about ones ability to use up every sock and underwear on the map... and neither was mine.  I used Interloper as an example, but the basis of my comment applies to ALL difficulty levels... We don't need to "forced" to resort to using the animal-based alternatives.  Most people craft and use at least some of them in their later game playthroughs... if even just for added warmth, protection, and/or aesthetics.  Why do you want to "force" players to do something specific in a "sandbox" game?

Edited December 28, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[Vareta]

18 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

You're the one to stated that you wanted this to "force us to use animal derived clothing entirely."  That's not possible because we don't have an "animal-derived" alternative to underwear and socks.  Your statement was not about ones ability to use up every sock and underwear on the map... and neither was mine.  I used Interloper as an example, but the basis of my comment applies to ALL difficulty levels... We don't need to "forced" to resort to using the animal-based alternatives.  Most people craft and use at least some of them in their later game playthroughs... if even just for added warmth, protection, and/or aesthetics.  Why do you want to "force" players to do something specific in a "sandbox" game?

This game forces you to do a lot of things. Eventually you will be forced to use magnifying lenses and use the bow exclusively, for example. How is this different ? It gives more value to clothing, thus promoting its collection. It would also give a little more reason to hunt, as at some point you will need to make another set of clothes. And I mean, realistically this makes sense, you wouldn’t to “patch up” a piece of clothing indefenetly.

[UpUpAway95]

35 minutes ago, Vareta said:

This game forces you to do a lot of things. Eventually you will be forced to use magnifying lenses and use the bow exclusively, for example. How is this different ? It gives more value to clothing, thus promoting its collection. It would also give a little more reason to hunt, as at some point you will need to make another set of clothes. And I mean, realistically this makes sense, you wouldn’t to “patch up” a piece of clothing indefenetly.

I disagree... there are usually several ways to go about getting something done in this game.  I was watching Atheenon the other day and he was embarrassed how many matches he still had on a 700+ day Interloper run... so, most players will never be "forced" use a magnifying lens.  You can stone rabbits indefinitely... so you may never be "forced" to use a bow even if your rifle and revolver and flare gun run out of ammo... and then run out of supplies to make more ammo.  You can also run deer towards wolves and the wolves will bring down the deer for you... then throw stones at the wolf from a distance to scare them off their kill.  You can also snare rabbits and fish.

In general, the clothing in TLD degrades far more quickly than similar-use clothing IRL.  My ski suit is 10 years old now and still going strong.  I have ski sweaters at least that old and I know of people who own animal-based clothing that is 100 years old.  The reason are stuff degrades so quickly is so it's possible to work up to sewing level 5 within the timeframe of a "normal" run.  To get my achievement... I had to resort, at 500 days, repairing everything I could find whenever it dropped below 100% conditions for severall in-game days just to grind it to Level 5.  Another player here reported having a similar experience on another thread here just yesterday.  Realistically, how low would a repair cap have to be to even come into effect in a normal run... and wouldn't it still feel at odds with the current sewing skill level up system and rate to get to Level 5?

Edited December 29, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[Vareta]

10 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I disagree... there are usually several ways to go about getting something done in this game.  I was watching Atheenon the other day and he was embarrassed how many matches he still had on a 700+ day Interloper run... so, most players will never be "forced" use a magnifying lens.  You can stone rabbits indefinitely... so you may never be "forced" to use a bow even if your rifle and revolver and flare gun run out of ammo... and then run out of supplies to make more ammo.  You can also run deer towards wolves and the wolves will bring down the deer for you... then throw stones at the wolf from a distance to scare them off their kill.  You can also snare rabbits and fish.

In general, the clothing in TLD degrades far more quickly than similar-use clothing IRL.  My ski suit is 10 years old now and still going strong.  I have ski sweaters at least that old and I know of people who own animal-based clothing that is 100 years old.  The reason are stuff degrades so quickly is so it's possible to work up to sewing level 5 within the timeframe of a "normal" run.  To get my achievement... I had to resort, at 500 days, repairing everything I could find whenever it dropped below 100% conditions for severall in-game days just to grind it to Level 5.  Another player here reported having a similar experience on another thread here just yesterday.  Realistically, how low would a repair cap have to be to even come into effect in a normal run... and wouldn't it still feel at odds with the current sewing skill level up system and rate to get to Level 5?

Even with this addition, you’d  still be able to do that exact same grinding process. Let’s make an an example: 

- you have a coat that is at 25% condition, and the maximum amount of condition you can repair is 200%. Now you repair it to a perfect state. In that moment you’d have a 100% coat of which you could repair a maximum of 125% condition. Mind you this is just an example, not how the numbers would go. When you level up, that maximum amount would increase, thus making clothing last longer. I simply cannot see how this system would be at odds with the current sewing skill.

Also you said that you aren’t actually forced to do anything, yes it would take a massive amount of time for you to be “forced” into doing something, but presumably it will happen, no matter how well you manage your resources. Of course no one would ever have the patience to do such a long run, these systems aren't meant to starve you of resources, but give them more value. If you could make ammunition presumably infinitely, you’d stop caring about saving ammunition. This is the situation that clothing finds it self in, theoretically, it can me maintained for eternity if you craft enough fishing hooks and beachcomb for cloth. 
 

I believe this addition fits perfectly with the idea that “everything eventually decays” that is embedded within this game.

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, Vareta said:

Even with this addition, you’d  still be able to do that exact same grinding process. Let’s make an an example: 

- you have a coat that is at 25% condition, and the maximum amount of condition you can repair is 200%. Now you repair it to a perfect state. In that moment you’d have a 100% coat of which you could repair a maximum of 125% condition. Mind you this is just an example, not how the numbers would go. When you level up, that maximum amount would increase, thus making clothing last longer. I simply cannot see how this system would be at odds with the current sewing skill.

Also you said that you aren’t actually forced to do anything, yes it would take a massive amount of time for you to be “forced” into doing something, but presumably it will happen, no matter how well you manage your resources. Of course no one would ever have the patience to do such a long run, these systems aren't meant to starve you of resources, but give them more value. If you could make ammunition presumably infinitely, you’d stop caring about saving ammunition. This is the situation that clothing finds it self in, theoretically, it can me maintained for eternity if you craft enough fishing hooks and beachcomb for cloth. 
 

I believe this addition fits perfectly with the idea that “everything eventually decays” that is embedded within this game.

Everything decays... I agree, but you're talking about eventualities that virtually no one will reach in any sort of reasonably length of run... and what I asked was WHY you wanted to "force' people into using hide clothing.  Now you're trying to tell me that repairing something to 200% condition makes more sense than what the game does now.  Clothing decays.  Sure, you can repair the clothing on your back indefinitely... but chances are it will at some point in the game roll a "ruined" status after an attack.  If not on your back and you're not keeping tabs on it, it will slowly decay while being stored in a container until it hits a ruined state where it cannot be repaired and is only useful for harvesting into cloth.

Also, note, I haven't actually said I object to the basic theory behind this... but IRL, it would take many more years than people play for single runs in this game for clothing to fall apart in that way when it is being repaired by someone with increasing skill at making the repairs.  So, to incorporate this, they would have to, IMO, revamp the current sewing level up AND they would have to set another unreasonably fast decay rate for it to have any meaningful effect in the game.

[Vareta]

1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Everything decays... I agree, but you're talking about eventualities that virtually no one will reach in any sort of reasonably length of run... and what I asked was WHY you wanted to "force' people into using hide clothing.  Now you're trying to tell me that repairing something to 200% condition makes more sense than what the game does now.  Clothing decays.  Sure, you can repair the clothing on your back indefinitely... but chances are it will at some point in the game roll a "ruined" status after an attack.  If not on your back and you're not keeping tabs on it, it will slowly decay while being stored in a container until it hits a ruined state where it cannot be repaired and is only useful for harvesting into cloth.

Also, note, I haven't actually said I object to the basic theory behind this... but IRL, it would take many more years than people play for single runs in this game for clothing to fall apart in that way when it is being repaired by someone with increasing skill at making the repairs.  So, to incorporate this, they would have to, IMO, revamp the current sewing level up AND they would have to set another unreasonably fast decay rate for it to have any meaningful effect in the game.

I don’t want to force anyone to do anything, I just stated a consequence that would eventually happen if this were to be added. A consequence that mirrors the already existing weapon system, for example.

Now about how it would work. I’ll take you through my thought process. Originally my first idea was to use a limited repair system, basically a piece of clothing had a limited number of repairs it can do before ruining. Now this had a problem, when you were repairing something that was, for example, at 90% condition, you would lose one repair, for only a 10% condition gain, when you could have gotten maybe 30% if the clothes were a little more damaged. So instead of that, I thought that clothes should have a limited amount of condition you can repair. Thus when repairing something at 90%, you get your clothes in a perfect state, and 10 % is removed from the maximum amount of condition you can repair afterwards. Try to understand this with the other coat example I gave. I don’t think I can explain this any better, I mean it makes sense to me. I also do not see how anything would have to be changed to accommodate this, I think the current decay rate can coexist perfectly with it.

 

 

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, Vareta said:

I don’t want to force anyone to do anything, I just stated a consequence that would eventually happen if this were to be added. A consequence that mirrors the already existing weapon system, for example.

Now about how it would work. I’ll take you through my thought process. Originally my first idea was to use a limited repair system, basically a piece of clothing had a limited number of repairs it can do before ruining. Now this had a problem, when you were repairing something that was, for example, at 90% condition, you would lose one repair, for only a 10% condition gain, when you could have gotten maybe 30% if the clothes were a little more damaged. So instead of that, I thought that clothes should have a limited amount of condition you can repair. Thus when repairing something at 90%, you get your clothes in a perfect state, and 10 % is removed from the maximum amount of condition you can repair afterwards. Try to understand this with the other coat example I gave. I don’t think I can explain this any better, I mean it makes sense to me. I also do not see how anything would have to be changed to accommodate this, I think the current decay rate can coexist perfectly with it.

 

 

... and I still think that's at odds with the Level Up regarding sewing.  As the player gets more skillful at sewing they should then get more efficient repairs that last longer and longer AND that increase the total limit on repairability (however, you want to define that cap) of the clothing.  Regardless, if realistic, the clothing should outlast any run that's under, say,  2 years long (a whopping 730 days)... which means, if even halfway realistic, would be an irrelevant addition.

ETA;  You're also assuming that players are currently repairing the same few pieces of the clothing over and over again during their runs.  Usually, I upgrade my current clothing as I go - exchanging it for the better clothing I find throughout my run and ultimately upgrading it to animal hide clothing when I obtain enough hides and guts.  The only time I felt I was making excess repairs to the same items of clothing was when I was literally grinding to get my sewing skill to Level 5 to earn the 5-in-all-skills achievement... something I've only ever bothered to do once.

Edited December 29, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[wilsonaka]

I would just like to say something, and hopefully it helps.

There is absolutely nothing preventing you from instituting your own set of rules.  Most serious players abide by these rules (which cannot be set in-game) in order to enhance their experience.  If you want to set limits on how often or how much you can repair a set of clothing, then you can do it.  It's not very hard to keep track, a simple piece of graphing paper or spreadsheet would help you keep track.  Say you're only allowed to repair 7 times. Tally them up, and move forward. 

I don't feel it's necessary to alter the repair dynamic in the game since every repair would be unique and making a million different variations of how clothing looks or altering their bonuses for each time it's repaired wouldn't be a good use of the Developer's time in my opinion.

That being said:  I would like to suggest that maybe there could be different qualities of cloth for repairing, and certain items require them; or ones at certain condition levels.  I.E. Expedition parka needs cloth from pillows or old bedrolls (Insulated cloth), Combat pants need "sturdy" cloth like from old jeans or other sturdy material that escapes my brain at the moment.

I hope you find my suggestion well, and stay warm!