Survivalmode late game features in The Long Dark

[mfuegemann]

Quote

Note: On interloper, the progressive world decay is limited to only 50 days. At this level wildlife is still too abundant and afternoons are quite warm.

That was new to me. Maybe removing this limit would be a good option. Thus the difficulties would still rise, forcing You to go for a double bear coat and ending every run eventually, despite getting it.

[Rose of Madmen]

Yup, if no-one  will do something to make this game a bit less blank then i don't see a point of playing it

[odizzido]

On 6/19/2021 at 9:59 AM, Rose of Madmen said:

Yup, if no-one  will do something to make this game a bit less blank then i don't see a point of playing it

The game is currently in early access. Hopefully it will be better once they've finished working on it.

[Karl Grylls]

1 hour ago, odizzido said:

The game is currently in early access. Hopefully it will be better once they've finished working on it.

The game is fully released since 2017

 

Late game The Long Dark: I think Jeff Peng described it perfectly. I remember my days as a 6 year old kid playing with lego: building something was more fun to me than playing with it later. In fact, i didn't care about playing, i just wanted to built forever. And that could be the point here: reaching a certain goal isn't necessary (for me, maybe you think so too), just playing the game along for an eternity would be enough. To do so it just needs more content. And this is the point where mods have to happen. New maps from thousands of other players or if you need a goal to accomplish, then even new challenges created by them. Or the community thinks about new challenges, post them here and other players can play them (like the "From Sea to Summit" before it was added to the game). In that case, we only need an incentive and a thread to collect these (maybe we can even found a league for players who accomlished the best of these. We can call it the "hardened survivor league" or something like that )

But yeah, i think mods will crucially account for making TLDs Endgame interesting, but i'm afraid mods will be restricted, because they put the game's original vision in danger. But who knwos what Hinterland will come up with. TLD 2 can replace TLD 1 also🤷‍♂️

[odizzido]

@Karl Grylls They haven't finished making the game? What do you consider early access if not being able to buy the game before it's finished?

[Karl Grylls]

11 hours ago, odizzido said:

@Karl Grylls They haven't finished making the game? What do you consider early access if not being able to buy the game before it's finished?

They have communicated that it's not finished yet and released it in 2017. Wikipedia says: "It was officially released on all aforementioned platforms on August 1, 2017[...]" Source

And when you check the Steam page of The Long Dark there is no note that this game is in alpha/early access/whatever like Steam always do. So it's fully released. I think the fact that it isn't full price (only 25€ in my region), is because the game is not complete now.

[SecondQuantization]

I really like all of those ideas. There could be randomly rolled endgame "crises" happening every 50 days or so. One such crisis would be an earthquake (which also makes a lot of sense lore-wise), which would collapse a traversable cave or the dam, blocking direct pathways between some regions and forcing you to take a longer route. This would also reinforce the idea of the player's lack of agency over the world in the face of the forces of nature.

There could also be an aurora-surge crisis causing wildlife migrations, which for example would replace a region's wolf population with timberwolves, or bears with polar bears. Polar bears would be much tougher to kill than black bears, so they wouldn't be such an easy late-game food source anymore. A mega-blizzard, let's say a week-long blizzard (with some prior indication), is also a nice idea, forcing you to stock up and hunker down.

Actually, much of the above doesn't seem like it would take a massive amount of time to code, maybe someone could make a mod?

Further regions would also be very nice, including the high-security prison and Perseverance Mills that are hinted at in the story mode. A super-cold arctic region would also be cool, populated with polar bears from the start, maybe with an oil rig/refinery or stranded offshore oil platform with massive supplies of petroleum to incentivise you to go there. I'm actually surprised we hasn't seen an oil rig yet. After all, Great Bear is supposed to be exploited by mainlanders for its natural resources.

[odizzido]

15 hours ago, Karl Grylls said:

They have communicated that it's not finished yet and released it in 2017. Wikipedia says: "It was officially released on all aforementioned platforms on August 1, 2017[...]" Source

And when you check the Steam page of The Long Dark there is no note that this game is in alpha/early access/whatever like Steam always do. So it's fully released. I think the fact that it isn't full price (only 25€ in my region), is because the game is not complete now.

I still consider it early access, regardless of what hinterland says. Unfinished means early access to me. I looked up the definition of early access on Steam...

What is Early Access?Steam Early Access enables you to sell your game on Steam while it is still being developed, and provide context to customers that a product should be considered "unfinished." Early Access is a place for games that are in a playable alpha or beta state, are worth the current value of the playable build, and that you plan to continue to develop for release.

 

 

Sounds like TLD to me.

[Satouthedeusmusco]

I do not mean to be rude. But some cloudy romantic concept of the late game being "Survive long enough so that your reach the open end of a long book that has no particular story" (A.K.A. reaching a point where you're fine with quitting) is not late game. Actual mechanics and gameplay are.

Entertaining this idea seems absurd. It would mean that anything and everything is late game. Get mauled by a bear but didn't die? Just quit playing on that save and call it the late game. It's something that wouldn't fly if said by any video game developer. Imagine if the next Elder Scrolls game had no content beyond level 30 and Bethesda just said "you've reached the open end of a long book." Professional critics, long-standing fans, the general gaming audience, they'd have every right to be completely outraged.

I feel the potential of the Long Dark is held back by a lack of late game. Kind of like a theatre play without a final act. One could talk philosophically about how it's artistic, but that doesn't change that the actual play itself would be better if it finished properly.

 

 

Let me put it another way. If we're talking only about survival mode and not Wintermute I think the developers at Hinterland would spend their time best and create a better game if they focused on adding features that happen later into the average playthrough. The early and midgame parts already feel great, now the later parts should be raised to the same level.

 

I don't see how adding more late game could possibly make the game worse either. It would not detract from the overall experience of surviving in the frozen Canadian wilderness. Hard late-game regions with special loot (like ash canyon), super predators, storms, long term projects, none of these would change the desolate atmosphere and feelings of inevitable danger.

 

Sidenote: While I suggested a possible way of ending survival mode that I do not think it's the only or even the best way of adding late game. And I would agree that adding a way to end it is one of the few ways adding late-game features could possibly detract from the fantasy the game is going for (hence why I called it heretical).

[Stinky socks]

Well, any game will end at some point. You just get to a certain point when there's nothing else to do in open world. You take red dead redemption2, recent game with huge open world along with lengthy story mode, but once you finish the story, you can go fishing...or hunting....or antagonizing NPCs, hekk even wipe out the whole town. And then what?

Yep. Bananas.

[Satouthedeusmusco]

The point of rdr 2 is not really the open world but the AAA "cinematic experience." The open world of rdr 2 adds very little to the overall gameplay experience and feels more like some kind of requirement on a checklist that Rockstar includes in their game.

The Long Dark has an open world for actual gameplay reasons. It's essential to the non-scripted survival driven gameplay of survival mode. Adding late game features would add to that.

I'm not asking for infinite content. I'm asking for new content that is geared towards the later portions of survival mode.

[Karl Grylls]

I'm splitted: On the one hand, i would like to see the end game to improve (adding more etc, give little goals here and there). On the other hand: TLD is the way it is (beautiful, meditatious, it makes you being lost in thought, etc) because there is no goal or end game. And adding end game content or a goal could diminish/destroy that. When end game gets improved, Hinterland must balancing it so perfectly, that both of these parts can coexist.

I just wanted to write that this is very challenging and i don't know how to solve this. But right at that moment two ideas came to my mind. First: We all know the little notes we can find in the world (e.g. in the hut in TWM). I think you can make use of this interesting mechanic. You have to find all the notes that are distributed over 2-3 regions about a particular topic (let's say how to craft pants from deerskin) and after you accomplished that minigoal, you can craft these pants.

Second: Some parts of the maps are suffering from environmental pollution (oil barrels in lakes, man made structure is influencing the course of a river, etc.). Once you have pulled the barrels out of the lake, you can come back later (let's say ~ 3 ingame months) and then you are able to fish in this lake or some cattails have grown or whatnot. Maybe even the shape of the landscape has changed? 

Another thing is: Once you restored the original course of a river, beavers have returned building a dam. And because of this you have now access to a new kind of animal.

Or if you find some empty cans that are laying around at a picknick place and clean it, mother nature won't see you as an interloper but part of her again. Just my quick 2 cents.

 

//or maybe over time all the man made structures will decay more and more. The Carter dam gets some holes (new entrance from the bottom of the river then, but inside it gets colder and wolves can enter too!), the concrete gets weak, parts of the dam are collapsing, burying the loot that maybe was still there.... Your base, for example the camp office, is not as warm as it was before because the wood is aging. You have to repair it and therefor you have to get the materials. Either by crafting or by collecting boards laying around in the Carter dam? Something for a TLD 2 for sure

Edited June 23, 2021 by Karl Grylls
Adding some more ideas

[Omnijack]

As a compromise, I'd like to suggest a late-game idea that shouldn't take too much effort from Devs...... Can we have more steam achievements with a mid-late game focus?

Things such as.. Survive 10 / 50 / 100 days on Stalker or Interloper (to show we've gone some distance on a harder difficulty setting). Or something similar to winter in July event (drink 25 maple syrup) like drink 50 summit soda in one play through. Maybe include a few 'negative' achievements such as : Don't swim there (awarded for falling through the ice 5 times)

Collecting achievements can extend the play time of a game, even if it's just : Kill 50 wolves in one play-through.

I eagerly await new content, ofc, and I really liked Ash Canyon with hidden 'treasure' in the gold mine. Ideally, any new regions added to the game will have some kind of unique item or bonus skill.

 

semi-related, an end game idea that just occurred to me....

During Aurora, after 150+ days, you hear a radio call from a search and rescue aircraft. In order for it to find you and land, gotta repair a radio transmitter (perhaps Signal Hill) and then use 12 road flares and 4 cans of spray paint to mark out a runway for it to land. 

Plot twist: no aircraft arrives, the SAR calls you heard are radio reflections from the ionosphere and are years old (damn Aurora bouncing back old radio transmissions) and your left in the snow with your burnt-out flares and spray painted landing strip. Achievement unlocked: at least you tried.

[Leeanda]

Used why people want more to do but asking for more from the devs seems unfair! I've had the game for several years and since then they've added so much already! And for free unlike any other game I've seen. Most companies would either make another game or use dlc's but they have more than given me enough!

[Karl Grylls]

well, for me it's not like "asking" for more. It's just thinking about what are the possibilities. For example for modders one day. The game got support for years and for free as you said, so i'm far away from "demanding" anything.

[Omnijack]

3 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Used why people want more to do but asking for more from the devs seems unfair! I've had the game for several years and since then they've added so much already! And for free unlike any other game I've seen. Most companies would either make another game or use dlc's but they have more than given me enough!

If Hinterland made extra survival-mode maps as DLC for $3 or $5, I would happily pay that money.

I also think that a 'rescue-ending' DLC would be a good way to deal with the strongly polarised opinions on the forum (as many people seem to be either very favourable or very against a 'happy ending'). What I mean is: if you have to opt into an ending by buying the DLC for it, then there is no impact upon those who don't want it. If you prefer TLD with a continuous non-ending sandbox, then don't buy the (theoretical) DLC that I suggested, and it won't even be an option to distract you.

I think Hinterland has been an excellent developer, exemplary in delivering quality updates without charging, and fairly good at communicating (I'd like to see more frequent Dev diaries ideally, but what we have is just fine.)

[Satouthedeusmusco]

@Leeanda

What's the point of the wishlist forum if we can't use it to wish for stuff?

[Leeanda]

I take the wish list as a bit of fun. Not seriously!😃

[Karl Grylls]

2 hours ago, Omnijack said:

If Hinterland made extra survival-mode maps as DLC for $3 or $5, I would happily pay that money.

I also think that a 'rescue-ending' DLC would be a good way to deal with the strongly polarised opinions on the forum (as many people seem to be either very favourable or very against a 'happy ending'). What I mean is: if you have to opt into an ending by buying the DLC for it, then there is no impact upon those who don't want it. If you prefer TLD with a continuous non-ending sandbox, then don't buy the (theoretical) DLC that I suggested, and it won't even be an option to distract you.

I think Hinterland has been an excellent developer, exemplary in delivering quality updates without charging, and fairly good at communicating (I'd like to see more frequent Dev diaries ideally, but what we have is just fine.)

In the last survey that was part of it. Extra DLCs after Story mode is done, deeper mechanics etc. Would also pay extra for if it enriches the game permanently.

btw nice Avatar you have there! One of the best sets they ever made. When it came out i was thrilled!

Edited June 23, 2021 by Karl Grylls

[Stinky socks]

We need nukes! That way, maybe move into underground? What's the closest large city with tunnels? Toronto? And bandits, 

Maybe a reactor meltdown? Causes radiation levels to spike and open up new survival strategies! Crafting gas mask and filters! 

[philthechamp]

21 hours ago, Karl Grylls said:

I'm split: On the one hand, i would like to see the end game to improve (adding more etc, give little goals here and there). On the other hand: TLD is the way it is (beautiful, meditatious, it makes you being lost in thought, etc) because there is no goal or end game. And adding end game content or a goal could diminish/destroy that. When end game gets improved, Hinterland must balancing it so perfectly, that both of these parts can coexist.

A million times this. I think the Long Dark stands out among video games because of the lack of traditional content forcing you to respond. You have to make fires and thats about it. The result is a soothing mandala of picking up sticks, warming up teas and exploring the world. Its for this reason that I have to say in game events like storms or earthquakes shouldn't be a thing. The player has to have a consistent read on the flow of weather over time to make their own decisions. Forcing us to respond in some particular way to a sudden event would pull us out of that kind of decision making. 

On the other hand, there could be some more features to add to improve the late game. I just think that these things need to be initiated entirely by the player. The environmental cleanup works with this, bc the player has to decide to initiate the change. I also think the radio tower/ hydro electric dam repairs fit into this. Neither require any drastic changes to the gameplay, and the result could be mostly cosmetic. Even with these 2 suggestions the player could choose to live in a world with more wildlife/ better scenery or choose to be the industrialist and have better vision at night due to the glow of radio towers (something like that). It just gives you a new goal to think about and reason to move around the map + the payoff of feeling like you had an influence at a later stage. 

Other things that I have thought of:

- a unique skill tree only available after all levels are maxed out (require reading on interloper?) could just be a simple movement bonus, calorie intake bonus, or any kind of subtle boost

- Very rare named animals/ fish that appear after some number of days. I think there already are 'special' fish in certain spots and I think that if we saw named animals it would totally change how we respond to them at a point. They could even have their own quirks. Do we keep them alive to say hi? Do we take their pelt and make new clothing? etc.

- Crafting. This is talked about a lot. I dont want a whole home builder with 4 different types of flooring and walls but it would be nice to hang certain things on walls or just remove the clutter around some of these houses. 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by philthechamp

[darkscaryforest]

20 hours ago, Satouthedeusmusco said:

@Leeanda

What's the point of the wishlist forum if we can't use it to wish for stuff?

 

20 hours ago, Leeanda said:

I take the wish list as a bit of fun. Not seriously!😃

I think the wishlist is a nice thought, but showcases that there will always be folks that want more or something to be different. I've posted there a couple times but don't seriously think the company will change anything. Also, hinterland has their vision for the game and I think they have a right to disregard popular opinions from the players.

Edited June 24, 2021 by darkscaryforest
words

[Karl Grylls]

3 hours ago, darkscaryforest said:

I think the wishlist is a nice thought, but showcases that there will always be folks that want more or something to be different. I've posted there a couple times but don't seriously think the company will change anything. Also, hinterland has their vision for the game and I think they have a right to disregard popular opinions from the players.

There were some things that had been added to the game because people wanted it. The ability to place items in the world for example. The placement was later improved, i was one of the people who wanted that (could still get an improvement imo). The Darkwalker event was so succesfull, that many many people wanted it to be a challenge. Hinterland added that. And years ago, fans wanted a region completeley without any man made structures and Hinterland added Hushed River Valley.

Also some years ago i fantasized in this forum about how it would be if we had a smell system. Like you're sitting in the woods, cooking food and a bear or wolves (or both) can smell it? Realistically, the range would be very wide, i would say the whole map since bears have the best noses. But gameplaywise this would just destroy anything Anyway, i believe it was a few months later when they added the smell mechanic when carrying meat or guts/hides. In the same update we got the ability to quarter corpses - a long wanted fan feature also.

So they have their vision for the game, but they also listen. And when it fits, then it fits. Or maybe they had the same idea already in one of their drawers, but time wasn't right to put it into the game. They don't answer, and they don't have to. Personally i would do it the same way, because when you answer on wishes etc. you always risk to fuel/stoke/shed (whatever the correct term in this context is) expectations. And when you can't deliver them because of - for example - unforeseen events, people will get mad and no Dev want to upset the fanbase. I believe that's the way Hinterland does it and i think it's the right way

Edited June 24, 2021 by Karl Grylls

[darkscaryforest]

2 minutes ago, Karl Grylls said:

There were some things that had been added to the game because people wanted it. The ability to place items in the world for example. The placement was later improved, i was one of the people who wanted that. Could still get an improvement imo). The Darkwalker event was so succesfull, that many many people wanted it to be a challenge. Hinterland added that. And years ago, fans wanted a region completeley without any man made structures and Hinterland added Hushed River Valley.

Also some years ago i fantasized in this forum about how it would be if we had a smell system. Like you're sitting in the woods, cooking food and a bear or wolves (or both) can smell it? Realistically, the range would be very wide, i would say the whole map since bears have the best noses. But gameplaywise this would just destroy anything Anyway, i believe it was a few months laterm they added the smell mechanic when carrying meat or guts/hides. In the same update we got the ability to quarter corpses - a long wanted fan feature also.

So they have their vision for the game, but they also listen. And when it fits, then it fits. Or maybe they had the same idea already in one of their drawers, but time wasn't right to put it into the game. They don't answer, and they don't have to. Personally i would do it the same way, because when you answer on wishes etc. you always risk to fuel/stoke/shed (whatever the correct term in this context is) expectations. And when you can't deliver them because of - for example - unforeseen events, people will get mad and no Dev want to upset the fanbase. I believe that's the way Hinterland does it and i think it's the right way

Those are some good examples. I probably haven't been playing this long enough to see the dots between some requests and updates 😅

Edited June 24, 2021 by darkscaryforest

[Karl Grylls]

8 minutes ago, darkscaryforest said:

Those are some good examples. I probably haven't been playing this long enough to see the dots between some requests and updates 😅

Don't worry. Some things had been added because fans wanted it: Darkwalker challenge, item placement, quarter corpses, putting dead bunnies in the backpack. Hinterland confirmed that. But about the other things like the smell system i'm just guessing ^^

When Milton Mailbag was still existing, i asked Raphael which things had been added to the game because people wanted it. In my post i used the term "demanding". He gave an evasive answer iirc because of my formulation. But still, i would like to know which things in the game were created on a fans idea. Was it either directly or was a fan's idea a spark that inspired the team and gave us something similar or else? Maybe some day i'll get the chance to ask him again

Edited June 24, 2021 by Karl Grylls