Darkwalker "teleporting" - bad mechanic/design!

[ArcherAC3]

So, I just died on my way to collecting all the 10 pages because of a frustating and seriously broken game mechanic.

When coming out of Hushed River into the cave towards Mountain Town, if you have the Darkwalker on your back he will "spawn" in front of you once you get into the cave (instead of remaining behind you, towards the entrance you just came in).

I had him about 150m behind me when leaving Hushed River, but couldn't move further into the cave because he would also be 150m in front of me the moment I got into the cave, therefore trapping me there, with low condition, unable to lure him anywhere else because transition zones in this game are always as narrow as possible, with the toxic clouds coming in...

So much time wasted, I'm not even replaying this again.

[stmSantana]

All you had to do was paint the lure on the wall next to you and then run forward.
After that you would have passed the Darkwalker coming from the front, but he would have ignored you because he was distracted by the lure.
You may have been a little scared and reduced your condition, but you should have survived.

Point 1: You can use the spray even in the cave
Point 2: Darkwalker ignores you when the lure is working.

[ArcherAC3]

7 hours ago, stmSantana said:

Point 1: You can use the spray even in the cave

Point 2: Darkwalker ignores you when the lure is working.

True, the issue is that I didn't know you'd lose condition by having the Darkwalker too close.

I got trapped a while before and used the same lure tactic to escape, but hadn't noticed my condition dropping as he was within 50m of me. So I didn't have enough to do it again (had about 15%).

Anyhow, this doesn't justify a bad mechanic. If the Darkwalker is coming after me, he should have been behind me, not in front of me once I step into the cave. This can't have been missed during test play as the Devs must have a way to tell where exactly the Darkwalker is for debugging purposes...

Edited November 1, 2020 by ArcherAC3

[ManicManiac]

9 hours ago, ArcherAC3 said:

When coming out of Hushed River into the cave towards Mountain Town, if you have the Darkwalker on your back he will "spawn" in front of you once you get into the cave (instead of remaining behind you, towards the entrance you just came in).

I mean, it's supposed to be able to get you inside structures and in caves.  They've explicitly said walls won't keep you safe.  Also, keep in mind that if it "touches" us we die... so if we step into a cave, there isn't much of a "behind you" for it to be in (because behind you is the door - the boundary of that rendered part of the "world").  It's important to remember that each region/zone, as well as "inside" structures & caves (where we see a loading screen) are all discrete areas that load separately.  So if you enter a cave... if it arrives in the cave, there is nowhere else for it to be but "ahead" of you.  If it just teleports into the cave at the door... and you are standing there, you'd just be instantly killed. 

Also, since it's a "Wendigo-like" supernatural presence... from a lore standpoint, of course it can teleport.  I don't think that's a "bad mechanic."
Besides, I think that's a very subjective statement anyway.  Just because a you don't like something about the game doesn't make it a "bad mechanic" nor does it mean it was "bad design."  If just means that you didn't like it. 

I like it just fine.  I don't think it was a bad mechanic or a bad design.  I think it's a challenge, and part of the fun is testing our wits to figure out how to effectively deal with it.

In game function, it's not unlike the Demon Bear from The Hunted - Part 1 Challenge.
In that challenge, the bear also occasionally "appears" in a location near you (at some pseudorandom interval after the last time we escaped it).
 

@stmSantana is correct in any case:
That is also precisely the kind of situation that the Lure was created for.  When the Lure is active, the malevolent presence "ignores" the player attracted by the Lure rune... once it reaches the location of the Rune.  It destroys it and resumes it's hunt for the player.

So far, I've never had an issue using the Lure in caves. 

9 hours ago, ArcherAC3 said:

So much time wasted, I'm not even replaying this again.

I mean that's certainly your choice.

17 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Those that don't like it... do not have to even mess with it, they can keep on playing their regular runs, challenges, or chapters of Wintermute.

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Lohaan]

10 hours ago, ArcherAC3 said:

I'm not even replaying this again

LOL. 

 

44 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I mean that's certainly your choice.

 

44 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Those that don't like it... do not have to even mess with it, they can keep on playing their regular runs, challenges, or chapters of Wintermute.

 

 

[ArcherAC3]

11 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Also, since it's a "Wendigo-like" supernatural presence... from a lore standpoint, of course it can teleport.  I don't think that's a "bad mechanic."

Then it ought' just teleport directly to the player position when it first spawns and be done with it - wouldn't be a bad mechanic, it'd just and only be "teleporting" by your logic...

It going through walls doesn't justify it appearing in front of you - even if the cave takes a U Turn. Besides, it NEVER goes through walls when it's in the cave with you, but instead it walks through the open area just like you; so it's a at least cheap excuse to try ans justify it literally appearing somewhere else (and not simply moving through an obstacle) because it can "go through walls".

The game clearly can't handle NPCs positions while the player is transitioning zones - if the cave from HRV to Mountain Town was a seamless zone, this bug would surely not happen, because the Darkwalker would just continue to go directly towards you like it does the whole time since it spawns.

It's not only a bad mechanic, but a clearly unintended error in how the game works, even if you try to defend it with any general excuse.

[ArcherAC3]

11 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

When the Lure is active, the malevolent presence "ignores" the player attracted by the Lure rune... once it reaches the location of the Rune.

It only ignores the player presence, it doesn't stop teleporting based on where the player is / when the player changes region, blatantly showing that it's a problem in how the game handles NPC movement.

I even recorded this while playing, I set a lure outside the cave in Hushed River with the Darkwalker further into the region, and then I got back into the cave. When inside the cave, the DW also appeared inside and in front of me.

The game doesn't "remember" the DW was back there in Hushed River when I change regions, even though it was and kept going for the lure the same way.

Edited November 2, 2020 by ArcherAC3

[ArcherAC3]

11 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

So far, I've never had an issue using the Lure in caves. 

Clip uploaded: https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/archerac3/video/114940501

Explain this then.

If the reason, like you say, for the DW to be appearing in front of me when I get into the cave is due to it going through the walls "because it can", then the Lure is clearly broken; because it wouldn't have gone after me, through the walls, into the caves with the lure is still back there.

Otherwise, and totally obvious while you may not want to acknowledge, the game can't handle NPCs positions when the player changes region and is artificially and wrongly placing the DW in an incorrect position when the player transitions from one place to another.

But imagine pointing out there's a problem in this game...

[Bearly Alive]

2 hours ago, ArcherAC3 said:

Clip uploaded: https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/archerac3/video/114940501

Explain this then.

If the reason, like you say, for the DW to be appearing in front of me when I get into the cave is due to it going through the walls "because it can", then the Lure is clearly broken; because it wouldn't have gone after me, through the walls, into the caves with the lure is still back there.

Otherwise, and totally obvious while you may not want to acknowledge, the game can't handle NPCs positions when the player changes region and is artificially and wrongly placing the DW in an incorrect position when the player transitions from one place to another.

But imagine pointing out there's a problem in this game...

Not only that but sometimes I get a full lure showing when I actually have not placed one. I'll have to pay more attention to when it shows up exactly.

Yes, it seems to me that the DW spawns at some pre-determined place whenever you enter an region or cave. The devs may have done this on purpose so he doesn't get too far behind. Or, yes it just can't keep track of NPCs and lures in different areas.

[ManicManiac]

@ArcherAC3

I'm not going argue with you.
I've already said my piece.

A lot your arguments sound a bit spurious to me, so I'm not going to invest the time necessary to itemize your last three posts.

It's unfortunate that you've seemingly had so many issues... but so far I've not had any issues with this event.  I've earned both badges now, and I'm on track to getting all 10 diary pages in my second (ongoing) run.  Avoiding the Darkwalker (to me at least) is pretty straightforward.

I disagree with your assertions that it's a bad mechanic/bad game design.  I enjoy this event very much.

 We disagree... and that's okay, we don't need to agree.
However, I stand by what I said earlier:

On 11/1/2020 at 7:56 PM, ManicManiac said:

Just because a you don't like something about the game doesn't make it a "bad mechanic" nor does it mean it was "bad design."  If just means that you didn't like it.

I like it just fine.  I don't think it was a bad mechanic or a bad design.  I think it's a challenge, and part of the fun is testing our wits to figure out how to effectively deal with it.

On 11/1/2020 at 7:56 PM, ManicManiac said:

Those that don't like it... do not have to even mess with it, they can keep on playing their regular runs, challenges, or chapters of Wintermute.

 

[ArcherAC3]

11 hours ago, Bearly Alive said:

Not only that but sometimes I get a full lure showing when I actually have not placed one.

I've had the same, both full lure and full ward at random moments.

It didn't seem to break anything in the game, but it shows there's a bug or bad code somewhere.

[ArcherAC3]

2 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

but so far I've not had any issues with this event.

I don't doubt it; the point of the thread through is pointing out that there IS a problem with how the game handles NPC positions, so it doesn't matter if you didn't have any problems yourself or if you think a blatant bug (proved with DVR footage) is not a bad mechanic just because it made the game harder. 😉

[ManicManiac]

@ArcherAC3

There is no need for you to try and be personally insulting towards me.  I told you, I'm not going to argue with you... but like you, I get to express my opinion too (and I did).  You seem to think there is a bug or problem with how "the game handles NPC positions," and I disagree with you.

That's really all there is to it.

You also imply that my experiences and opinions don't mater... but that's not true either.  They just apparently don't mater to you.
But that doesn't change my observations or opinions.

Let's be done with this conversation now... if you're going to try to be insulting, I don't see any merit in continuing to try discuss it with you.

 

[oh... just to be clear, I watched your video - what I saw was what I'd consider to be a player error, not a bug.  The glyphs, after all, are only locally significant - and I think you also let it get way too close to you before you took action.  I think that is not a bug, but perhaps more likely a misunderstanding of how it works in relation to how the game world is rendered.  Again this is just my observation/opinion.] 

Edited November 2, 2020 by ManicManiac

[UTC-10]

I have found (my impression) that if the DW is not in contact (>200 meters) then when it does spawn in the next region/zone it would tend to be towards the middle of it.  If in contact (<200 meters) then it spawns, for the most part, the same distance away when one transitions.  I have had both these cases occur but cannot say whether my experience was as consistent as my writing implies. 

I guess my experience so far says if in contact (<200 meters) with the Darkwalker expect it to be as close after any transition, such as to a region or zone, as it was before the transition.  Use the lures strategically and freely.  Make the Darkwalker take every step to any placed lure. Make it take the time.  Hustle as needed to stay out of contact (>200 meters) with it.

I can only say the above seemed to work for me.  Good luck.