Thoughts on save scumming

[GarlicPops]

I've been save scumming since I started playing this game and I do know this is frowned upon by many people. I do believe it does take away a lot of the danger and the adrenaline from the game since you can pretty much play without consequences as long as you don't get a sprain. 

I also do recognize that this isn't a good way to learn how to play the game and allows you to always get away with risky plays, with the only cost being your own time, but at the same time it allows me to explore more daringly and try many things out to see what works and what doesn't. For this reason I just don't seem able to stop doing it, or at least I don't have the motivation to.

What are your thoughts about it? Am I a bad player for abusing save scumming? Should I stop doing it? What are the reasons why do you do/not save scum? Can it be considered a "learning playstyle" and therefore be considered a valid gameplay mechanic? Should it be removed from the game? Let me know your thoughts about it.

 

[ManicManiac]

@GarlicPops

I would say it's a mater of player choice.
I think that since it's a single player game, there is no harm in folks playing the game how they want to. 

I don't think you are a bad player, I wouldn't try to be the judge of that.

Personally I choose not to play that way... but there is nothing wrong with you doing that if you want to.
All that impacts is how you play/experience the game.  The only reason you should change is if you'd like to change how you experience it.
You should play the game in whatever way is most satisfying and enjoyable for you.

I wouldn't let other player's criticisms interrupt your freedom to play however you choose.

Edited September 26, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Dr. S.]

I don't think that there's anything wrong with save scumming.

I don't do it because one of my main goals in playing is to see how long I can survive (and how much of GBI I can make my home) without dying, so save scumming would be self-defeating for me.

As for whether it's a good learning experience, I think not, assuming that what you're trying to learn is how to survive. Learning to survive is as much (or more) about learning what not do as it is about learning how to do things, i.e. learning what situations to avoid. If you're still dying regularly then you're probably not learning that.

With that said, avoiding dying also means accepting restrictions on your actions in the game: when you can go outside, when you can interact with predators, etc. Those restrictions aren't always fun.

[ajb1978]

My take on it is save scumming might seem to benefit the player, but really it only deprives you.  I'll give you an example: You know when a new map is released and you explore it for the first time?  That sense of "I don't know where I am or where anything is," is something you only get once.  You will learn that map in time, and then that feeling is gone forever.  People who just download maps online may think it's helping them, but all it does is deprive them of that sense of mystery.  By using maps to make the game easier to play, they are missing out on a central component of the TLD experience.

It's the same general thing with save scumming to undo the fact that you got lost in the fog, or quitting the game when a bear manages to surprise-maul you thanks to the waterfall drowning out the bear crows.  It might seem like it helps you, but really depriving yourself of that mauling only deprives you of the satisfaction of successfully getting away, recovering, grabbing your rifle and getting some payback.  Once you get settled, the game can get tedious.  Hunt, eat, gather wood, hunt, eat, gather wood.  A bear mauling or moose tap dance mixes things up and breaks the monotony.

Ultimately it's your game, play it how you want.  If you don't want the full experience, that's not for me to judge.  Personally I only justify save scumming if I get irrationally stuck on some terrain, like that time I got stuck in the bowl on the 2nd floor of the camp office.  I'll scum out of that one sooner rather than later, because at that point I'm one sprain away from a pointlessly ruined run.

[odizzido]

It's a single player game, you should be able to play how you want to. It's not harming anyone elses enjoyment.

[TiffTastic]

Funny thing, been playing this game for years and did not know that was a thing. Lost a 150 day game yesterday when I got tag teamed by a bear and a wolf after falling the last 20 feet off Timberwolf mountain. Hate to say it, mighta used it then....

[haft2doit]

I could argue it takes away from the experience of the game...however the only possible detriment would be to the player doing the scumming so I can't care about it myself.  It would make playing TLD pointless for me.  Just as much as your play choices don't matter to me, mine shouldn't matter to you. 

If you would like to have a discussion about why scumming would ruin my gameplay I would be happy to do that.

[haft2doit]

59 minutes ago, TiffTastic said:

Funny thing, been playing this game for years and did not know that was a thing. Lost a 150 day game yesterday when I got tag teamed by a bear and a wolf after falling the last 20 feet off Timberwolf mountain. Hate to say it, mighta used it then....

Thats why I don't know how or even thought to find out how to do it.  The temptation would be there.  Slippery slope and all

[haft2doit]

8 hours ago, GarlicPops said:

Can it be considered a "learning playstyle"

I would say it is as much a "learning playstyle", as a racing game that put you back on the track if you leave it, and has no opponents, or time limit. You may learn the track, and possibly get better at racing.  Will you get the most out of the possible experience though?

 

9 hours ago, GarlicPops said:

 considered a valid gameplay mechanic?

To be a valid mechanic it would need to be a user facing option...so no.  It is a valid thing for people to do.

[Andy_K]

My thoughts are that it prevents you really learning how to play safely. If you always have a save file backup, you will constantly take chances that might kill you. Perhaps 90% or 95% of the time it works out in your favour, but that's not good enough for solid play on ironman mode. You need a 95%+ play with a 95%+ backup plan.

There's something fundamentally different, and in many ways more satisfying, in knowing that you didn't die not through a skillful shot/fight or a bit of luck, but through meticulous planning for the worst case in every scenario.

[manolitode]

A few years back when I started playing, bluescreens were more common. Sometimes a crash happened upon door entry and ruined the save. So I was forced to replay half an hour of travel or so. Sometimes the second turn would end bad so I'd turn off the console before I died. Seemed fair at the time but honestly it ruined my liking for that particular save, so I stopped doing it. You seem to have drawn the same conclusion. On the other hand, if cheating helps you reach a place you've never been, or craft something you've never crafted before, then you learned something from that experience and that's a good thing.

What do you define as risky play? If you keep making decisions that might get you killed, you eventually will  If you want to avoid dying, take less risky decisions. Decide beforehand what items should always be in your bag. During what conditions will you do long and short travel. How much health is enough to leave your current base, etc. Deciding on these conditions beforehand should improve your death rate. 

How you choose to play TLD is up to you, play it the way you enjoy it.

[piddy3825]

I didn't even know this was a "thing" that players actually do in this game.  I understand the concept of quitting a game and reloading a prior save especially if you've been killed or damaged somehow, but never really thought it applied here since the game automatically "saves" when injured or killed kinda defeating the ability to do so.  But I think I understand how a player might wanna get a do over especially when faced with certain circumstances or occurrences that could have dramatically different results depending on the player action taken.  Especially since those circumstance might not present themselves again, ever.  

I guess I might be guilty of this practice myself in that I make it a regular habit to create a new save by entering and exiting a building multiple times to create a new save point in anticipation of the potential game killing glitch that I occasionally seem to encounter.  I started doing this after my 800 day survival run character got stuck under/inside a car after I had entered the vehicle crouched.  Had I just turned off the game, I would have kept that character alive and would have only lost the progress I would have made on that session of gameplay.  But I didn't and then did make the mistake of saving which of course was the coup de grace on that game.  

So, player, save scum all you want, it's just a game and it's your game!  

 

[GothSkunk]

The game goes to great lengths to prevent save-scumming working in Survival Mode. But obviously, it can't be perfect.

 

If you save-scum to circumvent a bug, I'm okay with that. But if you save-scum to avoid an undesirable outcome, damn right I'm going to frown and shake my head. Are you a bad player? In my opinion, yes, you are. But you are free to play the game how you see fit, and my opinion should not matter to you.

[TiffTastic]

After thinking about this a bunch, I don’t think I will ever use this even if there’s a bug, although that really stinks to lose a game to a glitch. The reason this game is still fun to me is that the risk of losing the game due to carelessness or in attention adds so much tension. If I knew no worries, it goes away, then I would not care bout that...so I’ll not use this. I’d get bored in a week or a month, instead of 3+ years and counting....

[odizzido]

I play a number of games, including ones much much harder than this one, without "save scumming". It depends on the type of game but I often find that much more fun and it totally changes how I play.

 

But that's me and I know not everyone wants to play like that. Whatever is fun for you is the way you should play IMO.

[Funguy]

Restoring from saved data is required if you are going to figure out half the mechanics.  Before story mode the only way to do this was to scum.  Story mode then went and made it part of the game, it only for that part.  So restoring from save points is totally legit and I would say necessary.  How else are you going to figure out how bears die without Googling it?  How do think those guys figured it out?

[ManicManiac]

On 9/29/2020 at 8:37 AM, Funguy said:

How else are you going to figure out how bears die without Googling it?

...umm, I don't think most folks would have to use google to know that bullets and/or arrows are for killing the wildlife in this game, and the finer points of hunting are pretty easily learned with a little bit of gameplay experience.

I have to disagree with your supposition.
I'd say it's pretty simple to learn all the mechanics through just playing the game, and so save scumming is not required in order to learn.  However, as I mentioned before... I think it's a matter player choice.  If a player wants to save scum they can, but I don't think it's correct to say it has to be done in order to learn the game... that's just not true.

For example, I learned this game's fundamentals through many many... many deaths.

[Glflegolas]

Wow, I didn't know that "save scumming" is even a thing.

Anyways... yeah, I've done it, though only twice in two years. Both times were in my YouTube series, where I really would prefer not to die/have to restart due to doing something really stupid. Namely, both times, the stupid thing was falling off the Raven Falls trestle due to holding down a key for a little too long. (I still hate crossing this bridge)

However, something like a sudden blizzard blowing in, getting lost at night, being attacked by a bear I didn't see, getting surrounded by timberwolves, etc. is all fair game.

[Gracia_WolfSlayer]

@ManicManiac I agree completely. I've never save scummed, and I figured the game out. I didn't even need the tutorial that sorta comes with story mode. Most of it is intuitive, IMO. "How do I kill a bear?" well bullets or arrows, and from the numerous games I've played I know that likely shooting it in the head/neck area will do the most damage. The only thing I had a tiny problem with was the controls when I played my very first run and all I had to do was look up the key bindings in the menu screen.

I'll admit to google the odd thing on occasion. Stuff like, "does time of day really affect fishing success?"  or "does a bedroll spawn in in ____ map?" 

But as to the OP's question, do i think save scumming makes you a bad player? Nah, not really. I don't personally think it's the way to play TLD, but if it allows the game to be fun for you, then go for it. Just like how some people play RPG's with the strategy guide open in their lap. Games are for fun, so do what makes you happy.

Now, I would say if you go bragging about a really long Loper run that you did a bunch of save scumming on, I think it'd be proper to make that info know when talking about your achievements 

 

 

[pdxthehunted]

Great topic. 

As others have already mentioned—single player game, do your thing. 

I play on PS4, which seems to make save scumming harder/require more intention. I’ve done it, and interestingly it never occurred to me that it was cheating. I discovered the mechanic by playing too late into the night and wandering around until a blizzard hit. I realized my mistake and just turned off the game and console and went to bed. The next day, I figured I’d at least see my survivor through to the bitter end. To my surprise, I loaded up outside of Trapper’s—weather was fine. I realized what had happened. 

I kept playing that sandbox, and one night my wife was distracting me a bit and I got attacked by a wolf. I immediately quit out of the game, figuring I would just give my full attention to her. 

Immediately, she said “Oh, is that cheating?”

She is not a gamer, and she didn’t mean to accuse me of anything—it was an innocent question  But it spoiled that sandbox for me, for sure. I had plenty of reasons that it wasn’t cheating—she was distracting me, the wolf had come out of nowhere, the settings had been off.

But the seed was planted and I realized that sandbox was dead. For me, save scumming does drastically change the game. The major mechanic of TLD is its unforgiving, carelessness-punishing nature. With that mechanic removed, or sidestepped, you’re not really playing The Long Dark  

 

[Sherri]

I understand some of the criticisms of save scumming and using downloaded maps etc.... but for me... I have 3 children, a business, a household to manage....  I just don't have the time for gaming that I did when I was younger or before I had kids. While I don't save scum, I do download maps because I don't have the time to learn by trial and error, and fumbling around blind and dying then replaying is time consuming. I don't have the time in my life to do much re-playing of things I've already done. One big reason that I don't like rogue-like games where the point is to do a level over and over and keep dying as you get marginally better. Repetition is not something I can afford in my limited free time.

As I get into harder difficulties that mean dying more, I may start to backup saves for this same purpose. So far haven't died on Voyager yet.

But to each their own.

[Sherri]

1 hour ago, pdxthehunted said:

The major mechanic of TLD is its unforgiving, carelessness-punishing nature. With that mechanic removed, or sidestepped, you’re not really playing The Long Dark  

 

Considering the wealth of options in custom difficulty, you can completely remove the punishing nature and play it to enjoy the exploration and travel. That is STILL a valid way of playing the game.

[PrincessAutumn]

I don't personally do it because then that takes the challenge away from the game. If I mess up and come close to death or actually die and lose my save, I'm a little disheartened and in one incident angry at my own stupidity but I like to learn from my mistakes so I be better  

[piddy3825]

On 10/1/2020 at 10:53 AM, pdxthehunted said:

I kept playing that sandbox, and one night my wife was distracting me a bit and I got attacked by a wolf. I immediately quit out of the game, figuring I would just give my full attention to her. 

I'd rather give my wife my full attention and be called a cheater, than to piss her off for neglecting her and spending the next couple of nights on the couch...  
 

[darkscaryforest]

I wouldn't judge someone for save scumming, but I personally don't do it for regular playthroughs for some of the reasons discussed. I do save scum to practice certain scenarios however. For example, I have a save labelled "target practice" where i have a bow and arrows and a rifle on me. It is the morning of a clear day and literally right outside the camp office are 2 wolves. I got somewhat decent at killing wolves and deer on this save- dying dozens of times to figure out what works and what doesn't. I have another save near a moose that I've used to practice hunting that. To get really good at something, you need to do it ALOT. It is so much more efficient to isolate and work hard problems separately from the rest of the game.