Shelter the living

[Stone]

Come now Hinterland. Surely it's time. I prostrate myself before you that you might let us make a real shether. A shelter worthy the frozen dream you have created.

If you so wish, let the interaction be as the snow shelter. Just let us make it and repair it with hides. Let us have a slightly better warmth bonus. Let us stack it with a bearskin bed roll. If needs be, have us bring a ton of hides and labour many hours of work. And if you really want to reward us; the blizzard walkers, the faithful cartographers, those with the will to live; let us light a fire in there and cook. 

Fire may be life out here. But shether is living. 

[oplli]

maybe a wigwam wich you can make from multiple and various furrs

Edited September 13, 2020 by oplli

[ManicManiac]

I prefer the snow-shelter the way it is.  What's proposed only serves to make things easier for the player, and I'm generally not in favor of things that make life easier for the player.

As it stands, I think we have plenty of options for shelter in the game (be they man made, caves, ruined cabins, barns, outbuildings... in other words many kind of "interior" and "exterior" types of shelters).  I like that the snow-shelter doesn't seem to be intended as a permanent solution, but rather more for emergency or short duration.  I also love that no mater what if we choose to use a snow-shelter, we will loose some cloth (that is to say we can't just recover all our resources if we just plop one down and break it down the next morning).  This characteristic means we must make a commitment of resources if we really think it's necessary.

I think that making what is essentially just an "over powered" version of a snow-shelter would take away from what I love about the game.  To that I say, no thank you.

[oplli]

Just now, ManicManiac said:

I prefer the snow-shelter the way it is.  What's proposed only serves to make things easier for the player, and I'm generally not in favor of things that make life easier for the player.

As it stands, I think we have plenty of options for shelter in the game (be they man made, caves, ruined cabins, barns, outbuildings... in other words many kind of "interior" and "exterior" types of shelters).  I like that the snow-shelter doesn't seem to be intended as a permanent solution, but rather more for emergency or short duration.

yes i can definitely agree even if it would be nice to have "permanent shelters building" it wont even be necessairy. the only time i would use them is when i would hunt far from my base and during a long time for example a moose and for that the snow shelter is perfectly fine.

[Stone]

@ManicManiac would a shelter that takes a long time to create and requires many hide 'make the game easier'? As you say, there's shelter all over the place already which is far more convenient. 

I love the idea of the current snow shelter but, in practice, its never called for. Even on interloper, you generally camp next to a hot sheltered fire with bedroll - the shelter isn't needed. It's only actually needed if you don't have a bedroll but MUST camp and that situation is extremely rare.

So what I'm asking for is really just a snow shelter that's a) worth living in and b) like actual shether people build in these environments and c) not dependant on damned cloth. 

[oplli]

@stone yeah it would not make the game eayer but as you said there is shelter all over the place so, im not against your idea but i would prefer to see other changes to come before.

[ManicManiac]

11 minutes ago, Stone said:

I love the idea of the current snow shelter but, in practice, its never called for.

...so by the logic you're using; if the current iteration isn't called for... then it would be even more extraneous for there to be another version of it. 

 

11 minutes ago, Stone said:

would a shelter that takes a long time to create and requires many hide 'make the game easier'?

Given that hide is much more renewable than cloth... Yes, I'd say that makes the game easier.  Even if the general mechanics remained the same... I doubt a player would worry about investing hides in a shelter because they can simply "get more," where as cloth is a little bit more precious in that regard.

Sure cloth is "renewable" thanks to beachcombing, but even still that comes with risk and chance in the means to acquire it.  By comparison... hides are cheap...  making a snow-shelter that would only take hides and sticks to craft; also cheap. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by ManicManiac

[oplli]

Just now, ManicManiac said:

I doubt a player would worry about investing hides in a shelter because they can simply "get more," where as cloth is a little bit more precious in that regard.

it really depends on the number of hides needed if it is like 6 to 7 bear hides for example it would definitively be a choice to make that shelter and beside of the choice gatting 6 to 7 bear hides cand be difficult and dangerous. yes during a 200 300 400 days run you can kill more than 7 bears but in a short ammount of time this can bea a real challenge to accomplish. also you have to wait 12 days before curing a bear hide so it would definitely not be without any dangers. but as i said i would prefer to see other more important things added before that.

[ManicManiac]

@oplli

9 minutes ago, oplli said:

really depends on the number of hides needed if it is like 6 to 7 bear hides for example it would definitively be a choice to make that shelter and beside of the choice gatting 6 to 7 bear hides cand be difficult and dangerous

sure, that's a fair point... but if this were the case:  Then it would be cheaper and safer to just stick with the regular snow-shelter... thereby making the bear pelt option more expensive and riskier... which sort of make the point of it kind of moot.  Plus, folks would then just moan about the alternative being difficult. 

All-in-all, I see no value add in there being another version of the snow-shelter using hides.  I think the snow-shelter as is, works just fine for what I think it's intended for.  Some folks seem to want it as a permanent dwelling (which I think is odd).  Where as I think it's really meant as more of an emergency shelter if one get caught out in a blizzard or maybe a quick over night stay (and the player didn't plan their route well enough to make it to the next shelter before dark). 

Edited September 14, 2020 by ManicManiac

[oplli]

Just now, ManicManiac said:

 I think the snow-shelter as is, works just fine for what I think it's intended for.  Some folks seem to want it as a permanent dwelling (which I think is odd).  Where as I think it's really meant as more of an emergency shelter if one get caught out in a blizzard or maybe a quick over night stay (and the player didn't plan their route well enough to make it to the next shelter before dark). 

how i see the shelter we are talking aabout is a shelter that we can light a fire inside and covers it from the wind. of course if the shelter is an alternative to the snowshelter but with hides i see no interest in it. i definitely agree on that point. i think it would be useful as a semi permanent hunting shelter not for emergencies. for example you wanna stay in hushed river valley for a long time to hunt the moose that may appear in 15 to 20 days who knows, then this type of accomodation would be fairly welcome as it would have took you months to prepare and get ready. i just wanted to clarify my point  

[ManicManiac]

46 minutes ago, oplli said:

for example you wanna stay in hushed river valley for a long time to hunt the moose that may appear in 15 to 20 days who knows, then this type of accomodation would be fairly welcome as it would have took you months to prepare and get ready. i just wanted to clarify my point

Alright, but in that scenario (one that I'm sort of living in my run right now)... I'd suggest it's far more economical to just get set up in one of the many caves (just pick one that's near where you want to hunt).  I mean that's what I did.  I spotted the bear I wanted to hunt... then found a cave near by and set up my main encampment there.  The next day, I successfully hunted and quartered that bear, and in relative safety hauled it all back to my cave to process it, cook it, and start curing the pelt.  In a snow-shelter, there would be no curing (so you'd have to drag the pelt and guts back to a cave anyway).

I don't see how using a snow-shelter would have made that any better.  The plan went perfectly, and I was always near my warm shelter (the cave).  Substitute with a moose and it would be basically the same: Live in the cave and hunt moose when it arrives...

Edited September 15, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Stone]

@ManicManiac I said the shether is far too situational and suggest one that has late game interest and, if a fire can be lit in it, real value. Clearly this is not of interest/adding value to you. No worries.

@oplli I agree, the fire is the sheltered fire is most useful thing about it.

I'm still driven by the inexplicable inability to use hides for shelter. @oplli got me thinking maybe you'd need to stitch a bunch of hides together to create an canvas.

 

[ManicManiac]

14 hours ago, Stone said:

I said the shether is far too situational and suggest one that has late game interest and, if a fire can be lit in it, real value

...and that part, I think, would absolutely make the game easier (and therefore in my opinion would take away/undermine the challenge I value in this game).
Also, I 'm generally not in favor of things that make life easier for the player. 

---

In addition, regarding "late game interest"... to me, that's a player issue.  I've been playing this game since the later end of 2014, and I've logged a little more than 1,467 hours (I only mention that for context).  I've never had any problems with keeping things interesting.  I always find ways to challenge myself, I always find things I want to go do/see, or go on little adventures just to press my luck.

Survival Mode is a sandbox (I discussed this a little bit in Milton Mailbag Dispatch #36).

I think that in a sandbox the onus should  be more on the player.  I think the whole idea of a survival sandbox (and what I like most about this game) is that once we get proficient with our survival tasks, that it's really up to us to find creative ways to just live in the world Hinterland has provided us, and for how long.

---

The other reason I don't think there is a need for an "animal hide"-shelter, is most of what you want to do... can already be done in-game.
For example:
If you want to live in a snow-shelter permanently with a protected heat source, you can already do that!  First, as long as we repair the shelter daily... it only requires sticks (meaning it can be used indefinitely and already supremely cheap to keep repaired - provided a little discipline on the part of the player).  Second, if we pay attention... we can set down our snow-shelter either near a fire-barrel (already a windproof firebox) or we can setup near a hollow tree (not "perfectly" windproof, but very nearly).

So... as long as the player is really serious about setting up a permanent snow-shelter for their encampment, it's already very simple to do... as I said it just requires a little forethought and a little discipline (that is to say, using a stick or two a day to keep it in repair).

I see what you are getting at, I do.  I'm just not in favor of it.

Edited September 15, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Stone]

Pretty condescending form of words your using there @ManicManiac

Thanks for your opinion all the same. 

[ManicManiac]

@Stone

I'm sorry you feel that way.  I was only trying to further explain my point of view.  However, I have no control over what tone you choose read my words in.  I know sometimes folks choose to take it personally when I don't agree with them, but it's not intended that way.   

[Stone]

@ManicManiac I'm not flaming you here. You clearly love this game. I do too. Same team! 

I've seen you say 'I don't control the tone people choose to read' many times. But must realise you do control how it will sound. Maybe you just don't realise how it comes over. So, for your own sake, consider how you might, at times, come across as condescending.

For my own part on reflection I realise you are a details and context person so.. My apologies. Please forgive my lack of context. I agree in not liking things that make the game easier. Right now I'm trying to survive interloper without clocking any time indoors at all. The shelter would be great for that if it weren't for the fact that it needs cloth which runs out fast if you can't access curtains and other indoor luxuries. So in that situation, it would be useful and realistic, to be able to use hides.

A sheltered fire location would also solve the cold problem but these are limited in great bear. So having a shether you can keep warm in would be great. Would it make the game easier? I don't think so, but it is slightly redundant with so much shether around (if you're happy to use it!). As @oplli says though, there are wild places it would be useful. What's more, it would let Hinterland release a map with zero caves / buildings. That would be a nice challenge! 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Stone
Typos

[ManicManiac]

@Stone

Our conversation about tone seems to be getting rather off topic.  If you'd like to discuss it further, please feel free to message me directly

However, regarding the rest:
As I mentioned before, I do understand what you are getting at.  I do like your personal challenge, and I can appreciate the idea.  I just still think that the sheer number of caves and other exterior shelters (specifically places like broken down cabin in Milton Basin which supply shelter while still not considered an interior location) that make snow-shelters kind of unnecessary anyway (except of course as a temporary emergency shelter).

Which is another reason I don't see a need for another version of it... 

True, protected areas to set down campfires are limited... but I think that's kind of the point.  I say that because, having to carefully consider where to hunker down is one of those aspects that I like so much.  As I've mentioned in the past, I think this is a game that's all about careful and deliberate action.  I think that having to make careful choices about where to bed down is an important part of that. 

I think that having an animal-hide shelter that (more or less) eliminates the need to carefully consider where to make camp... takes a lot away from the struggle and strategic elements that I value so much in the game.

Edited September 16, 2020 by ManicManiac
Edited to expand on some ideas...

[Laika Ivanova]

I love the snow shelter as it is now. Relatively expensive to build with 5 cloth initially, but for an emergency nothing is too expensive in my opinion and as a permanent solution to early morning crafting it suits well sitting right outside your actual shelter so you can easily use and repair it every day. Combine that with a double bear coat clothing build and you can stay inside it until you get positive temperatures without the need of a fire.