suggestion The fundamental problem with TLD

[Niev]

Hello everyone and before you read this long post I want you to know I am in no way attacking the game or the devs, I played the game a fair bit and I totally get how passionate they are about it and I don't want to ruin anyone's mood, but before leaving the game for a while I thought it would be nice to share my feedback  I don't normally do this, but this game gave me a lot of emotion and I feel it's just fair that I take a bit of my time to let the devs know how I felt about it, my impressions might be more common than they seem.. 

I can't bring myself to play this game after 60-70 hours, for several reasons. Essentially, the game is at its most fun when you're almost dying, freezing and without supplies, it really shines in these moments and the devs' vision comes to life beautifully, the problem arises when you have stuff and you get good at the game. It becomes boring, a clicking simulator without any depth, you start to see the code behind the game instead of the game itself, and it's the worst thing that can happen. Why doesn't the long dark have 10's  or even 100's of thousands of players concurrently instead of just thousands? this is by far the most beautiful, immersive and deep survival game out there, it originally surprised me when I discovered it but now I think I understand.. it's not that deep! after the first hours of absolute wonder, it becomes really really repetitive, boring and slightly depressing to play. I understand it's supposed to be like that, and in a way you're not supposed to have stuff, you're supposed to wander around always on the brink of death and that's the game at its best. But..

Every survival game has this phase in its gameplay, when you're weak and defenseless and you have to gather strength, TLD is ONLY about that phase, when you become stronger and full of stuff there's nothing to do, literally. You just have to eat/drink/sleep and you win, that's the game. I've been reading the forums and reddit for a while and it seems the solution the community found was "self imposed challenges", basically ignore certain parts of the game in order to get more enjoyment out of it, and that's perfectly fine I do it all the time in most games I play, the problem I find with this one is that outside of said "challenges" the game is terribly EMPTY! do I have to do the developers work for them? I'm sorry guys but sometimes while playing I feel.. cheated, it's like 10% of a survival game with a superb atmosphere, good but ultimately pointless exploration (always the same 30 items.. no variation) and nothing else, it's like minecraft without interactivity, or 7DTD without crafting, it feels unfinished and lacking in content.

What would make me come back to the game and what is essentially my criticism of it? once you're geared up and moderately comfortable on Great Bear, the fun is over. If all the fun in the game comes from not being good at it or playing an artificial version in your head (self imposed challenge) or playing interloper with even less variety in gameplay, can I really say it's a good game? can I suggest it to my friends? I have to be honest and say no, and I don't like it because I see how passionate the developers are and I know it's their first game, but when you look at it objectively, this game is unfinished and in need of more content. We need something to DO with our resources, outside of keeping ourselves fed and clothed and healthy. We need simple building, build a table or a cupboard, or a rack for drying pelts and meat. We need use for basic survival tools and materials, stuff that is everywhere in this world but it's not used: plastic, rubber, copper, natural gas, salt, sugar, different metals, power tools, all the stuff that you see in the game but can't interact with. We need a higher goal both in survival and story mode, like finding out ways to restore electricity or basic industry, helping random NPCS that can die at any time, we need very basic physics so we can carry branches to our camp/cave instead of being forced to freeze to cut it right where it stands instead of moving it 20 meters away where it's safer, or be able to move a cupboard or couch (with caloric cost of course) to personalize my living space,  guys anything would be better than the barebones experience we have now. It's too niche and I feel it's a waste, because adding more stuff doesn't detract anything from the game and you can always give players the options to disable it, or play "self imposed challenges" without it, it worked up to now didn't it? you could very well have a game that sucks you in for more than 200 hours a game with what you have here! let the first 50 be exactly as they are now with hoarding, raising skills, learning new stuff and stabilizing, and from then on give the player a chance to assert themselves over nature again if they are skilled enough, use books to lock the extra stuff for natural progression, you found a "Basic Chemistry" book, "Basic Building" you slowly get better at it and gather more tools and stuff. And i don't want an "easy mode" with this, let me build and then take it all away with a 7-day blizzard, or a giant wolf pack that sets camp right outside my door, allow me to fall from grace and feel actual loss from having to move on and change location, do MORE! ...

Outside of pure content problems, the technical state of the game is good but sometimes wonky. The inability to not jump, but at least HOP, or just raise your feet more than 20cm off the ground is just insanity, it breaks immersion constantly and makes you feel like you're not actually controlling your character in-game, would it really be that difficult to implement guys? AI is very difficult to program realistically so I won't blame the devs too much but.. please fix the pathfinding, whenever wildlife gets stuck somewhere it emits a loop of sounds that break immersion, it sounds like a machine gun. As I already said this game would benefit amazingly from very simple physics, it's probably also why we can't properly jump.. and one last thing about the story, just a thought. The story is just mediocre, not bad and not good, but I see you are focusing a lot on it with voice acting and writing. Do you really feel the game is complete and the only thing missing is the story? is it really the top priority in terms of money allocation? isn't it a bit of a waste especially considering the mixed reception? for 90% of your players the story is not important at all, actually the sense of mistery and wonder is a bit ruined when you play it, I don't want to be disrespectful and tell you how to do your job, but at least from my perspective, is it really worth it to spend that much time and focus on something most players just ignore or don't like? just my two cents..

Sorry for the long post, but I think it speaks volumes on how much I liked this game and how strongly I feel about it, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. Keep up the great work, and I hope to come back one day to a more complete survival experience, this game can easily become a 10/10 masterpiece with a few extra years of content and updates, for now it's a brilliant seed of a game that doesn't exist yet, and what exists right now is fun for a while but ultimately pointless and boring, except when you lose everything and then it gets fun again for half an hour, rinse and repeat.. give us a higher goal and this loop will become 10x more addicting, because you're building up to something, instead of just passing days without any real goal

and that's it, hope we can have a nice discussion on this, and thank you for reading

 

 

 

[ManicManiac]

First of all, I don't think it's good form for folks to try and speak for other players...  Have your opinions (that's each person's right, of course), but I think folks ought to just speak for themselfs.  I don't think you really know the opinions of "most players," so it's probably not helpful to your argument for you to state what most of us players like or don't like. If you don't like something, that's fine... but I don't think it's right for you to try and speak on behalf of "most players."

I think, if being just familiar with a game (and marginally proficient at it) is enough to turn you off from it... then rather than complain about it, I suggest just finding another game you like better.  As a point of comparison, I have over 1400 hours in this game... and I've never once felt bored.  Survival Mode is a sandbox after all...  and in a sandbox the story we experience is our own (we create it though our gameplay).  In that context, I think the onus is on the player... so if the player is bored, I'd say the player has no one to blame but themselves.

As for the rest of this... I've discussed almost all of it in the past so I'll just echo what I've already stated:
From Milton Mailbag Dispatch #36
"I personally don't think there is a late game problem.  I do think there might some issues with late game "expectations."  Which to me is not the same thing.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who will disagree with me (and that's fine) but I just ask those folks hear me out:

I think anyone that has spent long periods of time in isolation/lone subsistence will attest that coping with the mundanities of survival can be your biggest challenge.  There is no "happily ever after" or "congratulations you win!" in survival mode and I would suggest there shouldn't be... After all death is the eventuality, no mater what.  Be it because we've given up, or due to tragic circumstances (most often brought on by our own bad decisions).

I really like the idea that once we get proficient with our survival tasks, that it's really up to us to find creative ways to just live in Great Bear on our own terms, and for how long.  If one really feels the need to face the near death struggle again, we can always start a new run... or walk away from our "comfy" set up and go on a death march to some other desolate zone and work on getting set up again (only this time without the luxury of finding all those lootables - since we already took them all).

Like I said before, I really don't see any "late game problem," but I guess I just have a very different way of looking at the whole picture of Survival Mode."

On 2/17/2020 at 11:48 PM, ManicManiac said:

I think that player behavior doesn't need to be fixed by a developer... so I still don't think there is anything about this that needs fixing on Hinterland's end.

On 10/31/2019 at 1:05 AM, ManicManiac said:

In my opinion too many people get hung up on convincing themselves that their opinions are objective truths and that they are right in whatever statement they are making (which of course objectively is not the case - opinions are subjective in their very nature).  The general idea of my comment was meant to convey that if we accept the game for what its... then our discussion about what we think the game 'could' be would be much less infused with people's personal emotional baggage  

The moment people start tossing around their opinion like they know better than Hinterland what's going to be best for Hinterland's game... that's when I tend to perk up.

Again I think it's great to talk about ideas folks have for this game... but I don't think people should make declarative statements when they are expressing very subjective points of view.

On 12/21/2019 at 6:21 AM, ManicManiac said:

I love the discussion of ideas and the exchange of points of view.

I've made posts in the wishlist subforum in the past as well, but the longer I played the more I came to understand (or at least by my estimations) and respect why things were implemented the way they were.

To be clear, there have been ideas here that I have very much supported... the other's I have just weighed in on with my perspective.  I think it's equally valuable for any developer to hear from both sides of an idea or opinion.  I seem to have a much different perspective on the game as a whole than a lot of people on the forum.  Which I suppose has caused some to assume I'm against changing anything... which is not the case.  In the end, I trust Hinterland to do what's best for their game... so if they see fit to change things, then great.  I've not objected to anything they've changed, even though I've not always agreed with the changes... I've accepted them and took the challenge of adapting my playstyle to overcome those decisions I initially didn't like.  I didn't fuss about it... I chose to embrace it, and as a result I've become much happier with the game.

I do feel (that at least to some degree) I understand and can appreciate the choices that Hinterland has made with their game... and I think a voice expressing that is not harmful, but provides a counter balance to all the voices who do what to change things based on their own personal preferences.

I don't condemn other's for their opinions, I just don't always agree with them because I try to understand and appreciate why Hinterland makes the choices they do.  To me player choice is more powerful at adjusting the experience than wanting to change the game itself.

I think the game gives players far more agency than most realize (at least in survival)

On 6/14/2020 at 8:02 PM, ManicManiac said:

Raph has stated before that, "we don't want to make a game that's going to hold the player's hand."
Raph has also stated, "So that’s where all the mechanics of the game emerged from, how to turn Mother Nature into a…not necessarily an adversary but sort of a neutral threat. She doesn’t care whether you live or die."

To add to this I would posit: If Mother Nature doesn't care if we live or die... then I think, neither should this game.
I think in an open world sandbox the story we experience is ours, and the onus is on us in that context.
So I'll say again... I think that folks who "get board at the end" are having a player issue, not a game issue.  

Folks may also notice that Hinterland has already given the player a huge amount control over how we can experience the game (far more than most games out there).  I think for folks who want to talk about "going the extra mile," I would say that Hinterland went far above and beyond by giving us Custom Settings that very powerfully give the player so much leeway in how they can tailor their experience without undermining their vision for the game as a whole. 

Perhaps folks just aren't used to a game giving as much agency to the player that The Long Dark does.

On 12/15/2019 at 5:32 AM, ManicManiac said:

I still don't think that adding mechanics that would force players to do certain things wouldn't be a good idea.  I mean, perhaps it would be ideal for you to have the game tell you what do and determine your actions every step of the way... but I know it would not be ideal for me.  I'm a big proponent of player choice.

It hearkens back to what I posted previously:

• "I really like the idea that once we get proficient with our survival tasks, that it's really up to us to find creative ways to just live in Great Bear on our own terms, and for how long."
• "Whether a player decides to hunker down in one spot or stay nomadic should be a player choice, and not mandated by a system that is biased toward trying to force players into particular courses of action"

For me, "player needs" do a fine job of keeping me moving.  Mostly because I never hunt or gather in excess, and I tend to only keep the bear necessities on me at any given time.  From my point of view, we don't need the game to take extra measures (beyond the core mechanics of our "player's needs") to force us to do things, I think that should be a matter of player choice.  I think that in a sandbox (by definition) most of the onus should  be on the player.

As OP put it: "Sorry for the long post, but I think it speaks volumes on how much I like this game and how strongly I feel about it"

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by ManicManiac
Quote Formatting Errors

[Azdrawee]

I don't agree with everything, but you definitely have some great points. I love TLD and imo, it either needs to raise the stakes and be much harder even late-game, or it needs to add more late-game content... ideally both. It sounds like you're not aware of this, but TLD is still receiving survival mode updates (not just story), last two of these updates extended late-game gameplay quite a bit, so I feel like Hinterland is actively trying to improve this.

[Azdrawee]

@ManicManiac Dude, I see you at almost every feedback post on these forums and I feel like you misunderstand the reason people post these. This post specifically is in no way complaining about the game, but rather giving feedback and suggesting how to improve it. TLD is a game with a great concept which many people enjoy, so I feel like suggesting "finding another game you like better" is rather out of place, especially because there's not many games like it.

"If the player is bored, I'd say the player has no one to blame but themselves." - just because TLD is a sandbox, doesn't mean it shouldn't have interesting content and be fun to play in late-game. If I created a simple game where you can move a box around an empty world, it would also technically be a sandbox, and it would feel rather weird to respond "well if you're bored it's your fault" if someone didn't enjoy playing my game for hours.

If you think TLD is a perfect game that shouldn't have any improvements made to it, that's a perfectly valid opinion, but I feel like you're trying to made feedback posts on these forums seem as something negative, which they definitely aren't. This doesn't apply to all of them of course, but most of these (this one, for example), are just trying to provide constructive feedback and suggest ways in which the game could be improved, which in turn would make the game more enjoyable.

[ManicManiac]

@Azdrawee

  I think perhaps you might misunderstand the reason I post these.  Though I thought, I generally make it pretty clear... but I'll say it again if you'd like.  I just express my point of view...  I'm not attacking anyone personally.

On 12/21/2019 at 6:21 AM, ManicManiac said:

To be clear, there have been ideas here that I have very much supported... the other's I have just weighed in on with my perspective.

I think it's equally valuable for any developer to hear from both sides of an idea or opinion.  I seem to have a much different perspective on the game as a whole than a lot of people on the forum.  Which I suppose has caused some to assume I'm against changing anything... which is not the case.  In the end, I trust Hinterland to do what's best for their game... so if they see fit to change things, then great.  I've not objected to anything they've changed, even though I've not always agreed with the changes... I've accepted them and took the challenge of adapting my playstyle to overcome those decisions I initially didn't like.  I didn't fuss about it... I chose to embrace it, and as a result I've become much happier with the game.

I do feel (that at least to some degree) I understand and can appreciate the choices that Hinterland has made with their game... and I think a voice expressing that is not harmful, but provides a counter balance to all the voices who do what to change things based on their own personal preferences.

I don't condemn other's for their opinions, I just don't always agree with them because I try to understand and appreciate why Hinterland makes the choices they do.  To me player choice is more powerful at adjusting the experience than wanting to change the game itself.

Also:

On 8/20/2020 at 5:13 AM, ManicManiac said:

I just don't want other people's personal preferences to potentially lead to changes in a game I enjoy.  Which is why I (more often than not) weigh in with my perspective when I don't agree with the assertions others make.

As always I mean nothing personal toward anyone... but I will speak my mind, just like everyone else here.

Trying to chew me out because I express my opinions... I think that's just bad form.

Edited August 31, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Azdrawee]

@ManicManiac Not sure if you read my post correctly.

24 minutes ago, Azdrawee said:

If you think TLD is a perfect game that shouldn't have any improvements made to it, that's a perfectly valid opinion

As I think is perfectly clear, I'm not trying to chew you out for expressing your opinions - that would be just ridiculous. If you think someone's idea should not be implemented, it's more than appropriate for you to voice your opinion.

My post is about how you, in your responses, present feedback posts as "people complaining" instead of treating them as feedback. What Niev said in this post is nothing else than his subjective review of the game, and why, even though he really enjoyed it at the beginning, doesn't enjoy playing it anymore. Therefore, he decided to suggest how the game could be improved, which is in my opinion the best thing he could've done, not only because I agree with many points of his post, but also because it's great for Hinterland to get feedback from as many players as possible.

If you really think "it's equally valuable for any developer to hear from both sides of an idea or opinion", which I fully agree with, I'm rather confused why you think players who don't enjoy playing should "find another game they like better, rather than complaining about it". From your posts, I really get the impression that you think they shouldn't voice their opinion here.

[Admin]

The Long Dark as a game is still growing, being updated, and having new content added to it. So we value all constructive feedback which everyone in this thread has given.

We do have fairly high community standards and a low tolerance for toxic comments, insults directed at the Dev Team or other players, and threats which unfortunately are often a part of the broader gaming community.

Thankfully with our community that's not typically an issue and again everyone in this thread has been sharing reasonable views and we are happy to allow that to continue. 

We welcome people sharing their views, other people sharing counter-views, and then others sharing counter-views to that. Discussion and civil disagreement is helpful in showing us what people care about in the game and what they'd like to see changed which is valuable feedback. That's not to say that just because people ask for a particular thing we'll automatically do it, but it's helpful to see what the community thinks.

So thank you all for taking part in our forums and please continue to do so.

[ManicManiac]

24 minutes ago, Azdrawee said:

If you think someone's idea should not be implemented, it's more than appropriate for you to voice your opinion.

  Right, which is what I'm doing... so I don't know what issues you seem to have with me.
 

24 minutes ago, Azdrawee said:

My post is about how you, in your responses, present feedback posts as "people complaining" instead of treating them as feedback.

I think most of that is in how you're choosing to read it... I have no control over what tone you read my text in.
I'm not sure why you seem to be trying to dictate what I can or can't express my opinion on.

 

24 minutes ago, Azdrawee said:

I'm rather confused why you think players who don't enjoy playing should "find another game they like better

I can see how you might read it that way... however, I think you've taken me a little out of context.  I was just pointing out an option we as players have...  I don't think I've ever tried to stop someone from posting anything.

I realize that it may annoy some folks when I don't agree with other people's opinions... but if I don't agree, then I'm likely going to speak my mind.
At this point, I think this is getting off topic.  If you'd like to talk more about my posting habits, please feel free to message me directly. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Azdrawee]

@ManicManiac I don't think there's anything else to be said - I already explained everything in my posts. I still feel like you're missing my point, but repeating the same things over and over won't change anything about that. You're right that this conversation is getting off topic and taking the focus from the contents of Neiv's post, so it's best that we stop.

@Admin Thank you for reading through the forums, listening to feedback, and updating the game. All of your recent updates have added fantastic things and I really like that I already know I can expect more in the future.

[Serenity]

11 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I think most of that is in how you're choosing to read it

No, it's not just him. You don't seem to realize how aggressively you react towards anyone who dares to criticize some aspect of the game or thinks that the developers aren't perfect.

[Niev]

Manic we're on the same side, I love the game too and I want it to become the best it can be, that's why I took the time to write this post and I will take the time to reply to everyone, we're all on the same side here, so please no "stop complaining and play something else", it's needlessly rude and antagonistic  also I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to speak on your behalf and I absolutely understand and cherish your passion for the game, I really really didn't want to put words in yours or anybody else's mouths, I was just looking at the numbers and thinking: "how can a game this well crafted, this atmospheric and emotional have such a relatively low success rate compared to vastly inferior games in the same genre?" then I kept playing and playing and it became clearer each minute.. lack of content! so I put 2 and 2 and tried to deduce the silent opinion, it might be right it might not, I just gave my two cents, really no ill will on my part and again sorry if it didn't come clearer  (also sorry if my english is not always perfect, I'm not even american and I live in a pretty hot country, I'm a bit of an outsider here )

And so my question to you becomes simple: do you think it would detract from the game if we were able to, for example, move a couch in front of the fire to make a cozy retreat from the cold that looks exactly like we want? would it detract if we could build primitive furniture and storage with the saw, if we could (with enormous cost) cut down a tree and use it for crafting and fuel? would it make the game worse if we had pens, pencils to write stuff in the journal or maybe make a painting to hang in our living room? I think you would agree with me that these would be organic, immersive and absolutely natural features that would fit perfectly in this game, the list is near endless and I don't want a thousand different activities, but maybe a dozen fun extra things to work towards? I'm not imagining this as an "easy mode" but the exact opposite, and outlet for very proficient survivors (such as you, with 1400 hours!) to make survival games worth surviving outside of just watching the numbers grow.. I'm talking about raw content, new stuff to play with, wouldn't that make you happy?

 

Quote

 

I really like the idea that once we get proficient with our survival tasks, that it's really up to us to find creative ways to just live in Great Bear on our own terms, and for how long.  If one really feels the need to face the near death struggle again, we can always start a new run... or walk away from our "comfy" set up and go on a death march to some other desolate zone and work on getting set up again (only this time without the luxury of finding all those lootables - since we already took them all). 

Like I said before, I really don't see any "late game problem," but I guess I just have a very different way of looking at the whole picture of Survival Mode."

 

I have to say, this comment here made me feel a bit frustrated, it's like you know perfectly what I'm talking about but decide to ignore it: WHY would anyone surviving in the harsh canadian winter decide to all of a sudden leave their home and start a death march to someplace else? why do you feel the need to restart the game once you get too comfy? because there's absolutely nothing to do with your resources, nothing to work towards! there is no content at all after you have all you need, the game is over unless you decide to do something stupid, wouldn't it be better if we could expend these resources and invest them to make something? something for our pleasure, or for practical survival, or something to prepare us for an even higher goal that they could implement in the game, like getting electricity again, salvaging a solar panel, again the list is ENDLESS but it seems we have given up on new meaningful content, and as fans I feel we should keep the developers to a higher standard, they have a lot of talent and this game is incredibly professional, I just feel it lacks in raw content..

Hope I cleared it up, I'll be happy to read your reply

[Admin]

Let's get back onto replying to the opening post and the issues it raised and away from who is at fault. Everyone here is a valued community member and we don't want to get into an argument.

Just try to keep in mind that everyone's feedback is welcome, and debate is as well. Try to offer your feedback either to the game or other posters' views in as kind and understanding a way as possible because everyone here loves the game and would like to see it continue to grow and get better. Which doesn't mean that it's perfect or that people will agree on everything.

Try not to shut down other people's ideas, but if you don't agree offer solutions or alternatives.

[ManicManiac]

@Serenity

I don't have any control over the tone anyone reads my posts in.  When I post, I just mean to express my opinions (just like every one else here).
Again though, this seems to be getting off topic.  If you'd like to discuss my posting habits, please feel free to message me directly and we can talk further about it.

[Niev]

And I want to stress, even though I got bored with it, how GOOD this game can feel, how deep and fascinating. The first hours are really incredible, the basic loop is very well done, all I'm hoping for is an expansion of said loop and new loops to work towards, bigger loops! and also @azdrawee I understood why manic wrote what he wrote, I understand him and I would never want the game he loves to be taken away for the sake of accomodating more players and dumbing it down, that's why I wanted to clarify that I'm advocating the opposite, I find it to be too simplistic and empty and want it to become more and more complex, not necessarily difficult, and always retaining player choice. If you don't want to do the new activities, you don't do them, I don't want the game to fundamentally change because it is very special just the way it is, I think it was just a misunderstanding

[ManicManiac]

2 hours ago, Niev said:

I wanted to clarify that I'm advocating the opposite

Fair enough. 

I acknowledge that in the interests of saving a lot of time typing, I echoed what I'd written in many previous posts.  As a result perhaps some of those things might have easily been misconstrued and/or taken out of context  (I tried to keep them in their original context in the care of selecting how much text to carry over, but perhaps it wasn't enough).  Perhaps I should have taken the extra time to specifically discuss your post more directly.  I certainly meant nothing personal towards you... or anyone.  However, I think it does still illustrate my point of view.

Back to your initial post then:

I still don't think there is a late-game problem.  I do believe that in a sandbox it should be up to the player to decided how to live in the world we've been provided, and for how long.  I've been playing the game consistently since the later end of 2014, and I've never found myself getting bored.

I'm not saying the game is perfect... but I do tend to think that in the survival sandbox, the story I experience is the one I create through how I choose to play the game.  So... by that reasoning, if I did find myself getting bored I'd say that's on me... not a problem with the game. 

This gets back how I think that the wealth of player choice is where the game shines brightly.  For me, this has created an experience that long out lives other games (that tend to put the player on rails and points them where they need to go and what they need to do to "win"). 

I love that the Survival Mode leaves us to our own devices.  For me that never gets boring because I always find ways to explore and challenge myself. 

I wasn't ignoring your thoughts about boredom... I think we just don't look at it the same way.  I'm not trying to be dismissive of how you feel about it, I was trying to express I see it as a source of gameplay freedom that we don't get with other games. 

I think that the game being centered around it's survival mechanics (and what you refereed to as simplicity and empty)... to me opens up a lot of emergent gameplay and gives the player the freedom to explore and live in the game world however they choose.  I guess I'm just the kind of player that's well suited to and very much enjoys the freedom that a sandbox (particularly this one) provides.

Sure, of course I'd like to see more updates and regions.  However, I don't agree with a lot of other people's ideas about how to go about that.  More often than not just I don't think most of those ideas would blend well with the game we have, and I try to express that.  If someone talks about how boring things get, I try to give my perspective (in that I don't think it gets boring at all).   I try to share how I see the game in (apparent) contrast to how others seem to see it.

 

I don't think the game is perfect, but I do choose to accept the game for what it is.  What others may decide gets boring for them... doesn't get boring for me.  I see it as the freedom to play and explore however I want to, and I love that.

I hope I could clarify my thoughts on this as well.  I suppose some will still read this with a hostile voice... but it's not intended. 

It's just that what some seem to see as "The Fundamental Problem with TLD"... I don't think is a problem at all.

Edited August 31, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Serenity]

3 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

I don't have any control over the tone anyone reads my posts in. 

 

[sonics01]

@Niev Very nice writing pal. New resources, new animals, new wildlife, new crafting items, more content, and stories... If we make a poll, I'm sure the majority will vote to see those new content in TLD, and I'm sure devs know this pressure for new content for many reasons.  

Any game developers (I'm not working in the game industry, but I do know that the competition pace in the game industry is very fast.) clearly understand the meaning of the quote "Iron rusts without use, stagnant water rots" and I assume HL would feel the same towards TLD. Right now, the "same old TLD" is losing to all other survival genre competitors in the steam player ranking. Without innovation, and without new content, TLD will become a "game of oldbies" who always sings in the forum "this game is not for everyone", and then will lose new customers and new players to competitors and will be forgotten. 

I'm pretty sure that devs, including Raph himself, have (or had) a ton of brilliant ideas for new content to flourish TLD. HL "had" a roadmap, which is deleted long ago but you can still google it. If you read the roadmap, you will find that a good portion of "roadmap" content is already implemented in TLD. Check this post

to compare the deleted roadmap and current TLD. 

In addition, you will be able to see that the most of ideas in the "roadmap" coincide with the suggestions from the wishlist forum and Reddit. Such as improved cooking, primitive fire making, grizzly bear and cougar, snowshoes or nordic skis, wellbeing system (i.e. mental/emotional cost of survival), spring and another season sandbox... Surprising enough, HL even had some radical ideas, such as canoe/horse, and NPC in the sandbox. In the link above, it mentions 

Quote

Has been talked several times on Raphael's twitter and there was a hint to raidings by raids. Most likely a gameplay option prior starting a new save file.

Can you imagine "raid" in TLD? I'm not sure if I really like that idea of raid in TLD. But, I'm glad that HL devs and Raph are trying to create the new content in TLD, and I'm happy to see them putting some efforts to being more creative to improve this game. 

While I know several ideas from the "roadmap" are officially denied, I think they are still working loosely based on the roadmap. No one expected revolver and gunsmithing when such features were implemented in this game, and both of them were in the old roadmap. Now, that "roadmap" is deleted long ago, so I think and I assume that HL has a better version of the roadmap with even better content for internal use only. 

Based on this, I believe the degree of imagination and ideas from devs themselves are (or were) really great. But why they are not in TLD yet? As far as I know, looking back in the mod debate post of so-called "IL2CPP incident", the Unity engine and Unity related issue of performance optimization is (or was) prohibiting any new bright ideas to this game. I'm also curious if this issue is cleared or not, and if not, why it takes so long time to clear this optimization issue. It would be a lie if I'm not disappointed with HL. But at the same time, I don't have any intention to undermine HL's effort to make this game better, I think (and I wish) HL had a good reason to take a long time to resolve these issues and I wish the best for HL devs. I really appreciate HL never gave up on this great work. 

 

 

Anyway, they are working on an official modding tool as far as I know, so I wish they do this as soon as possible with a wide degree of freedom. I think it is a bit too late to introduce the official modding tool now but better late than sorry. I'm also trying to learn C# myself. I think modding has the potential to increase the perspective of this game. There are so many great mods that hit more than the original. XCOM long war, Stalker Misery/Anomalie, so many mods in Fallout and Elderscroll franchise... Modding with such depth and width will surely make TLD flourish. 

At the same time, I'm 100% sure TLD players who want the new content surely understand "the sentiment of old TLD" and I, you, and the majority of TLD players do want to keep that "feeling" and "originality" of TLD. And I, you, the majority of TLD players believe and wish that such new content will not and should not harm the "sentiment or originality or whatever we call of TLD".

That is why I think modding can be a great answer, as all the brilliant-but-radical ideas can be tried as purely optional content. I'm not a fan of the zombie apocalypse in TLD, but if there is a zombie mod in TLD, I wish to try it. Any Cryptid mod, Bigfoot mod, or horror mod as well. I'm 99.9999% sure, and I bet my 25c in my pocket, that such mods will positively influence on TLD sales, player ranking, and increase the number of YT/Twitch viewers.  

If HL provides them as an option without modding, that will be great too. But I'm sure their hands are tied with so many things now, so I wish they throw us a good, detailed modding tool with wide degree of freedom.  

These are win win scenario for everyone. All additional new contents are optional, so "traditionalists" or "oldbies who sings this game is not for everyone" satisfies. And all "innovators" or "noobs who wish to see new contents" satisfies. I really can't understand the minds of prohibiting even optional contents. Such minds are surely killing the future of this game IMO. Seeing the roadmap, even devs have (and had) a brilliant ideas for new contents. 

 

 

Regarding the internet identity of problem in this post, just ignore him. Not worth your time. I learned that by my own experience. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by sonics01

[haft2doit]

@NievOP You have arrived at your first "I accomplished what I wanted" moment.  It's ok to put the game down until something sparks you to fire it up again.  I have gone years between starting a game or continuing a run.  Concurrent players may be a metric of concern for an online game that needs players to make it work, but TLD is more like a book that catches your eye after potentially years on the shelf.  Imaginings of what could be in the game are enticing, but the lack of which shouldn't be considered "problems".  No matter the mechanics or content added you will always reach a point where you say "I'm done for now".  It's ok.

[Niev]

@ManicManiac

then I get you man, and it's a valid point of view, the game is special the way it is now and adding new stuff could easily break the balance, and I also agree that if you like it just the way it is then there is no "problem" with endgame. You made me think about it and in fact TLD is the only purely "corporeal" survival game out there, and with that I mean the main focus is purely keeping alive, and the challenge doesn't come from anything else, all of the items and the actions you perform are aimed at keeping you alive, not manipulating the world or asserting dominance over the situation, the soul of this game is being unable to do so and as a philosophical point I find it a powerful experience, my problems come more from the gameplay side of things   I wouldn't want to lose the main feeling of the game, but only add stuff to do in it and give players more choice about what they can do their survival, I think it would improve the game and not dampen it in any way, but also as the admin has stated, all of these are just suggestions and will probably not end up in the game, Hinterland has the final word and seeing the recent updates I'm willing to give this game multiple chances, they deserve it

@haft2doit I wasn't worrying about player counts in a practical way but more in a "I think the devs deserve better and there's something stopping this game's success, what could it be?" and as for the "book in the shelf" analogy it's actually very accurate to what I feel about it too, it's just that given the sheer quality of the game I would like it to be a whole book series that I could read for months and months on end, instead of a fleeting pleasure

As for the features themselves that I feel are missing, and trying to narrow down the list as much as possible to give concise feedback to the devs about what stood out the most to me while playing (technically and content wise): 

Inability to hop over very small obstacles and generally clunky movement, when I'm carrying 30 kg of stuff I expect to be slow and clunky but that's all the time, encumberance actually plays less of a factor than in games like Skyrim, which is crazy

Absence of physics and related baggage (can't carry stuff dynamically, strange collision detection, invisible slopes spraining you, can't personalize spaces or move furniture)

Limited interactivity and unusable resources that are nonethless available but "static", no curing meat, lack of very basic and realistic building, things you would do given the time and expertise in an apocalypse

Little variety in items, no brands or qualities outside of %numbers, nothing ever surprises you after a couple hours of gameplay, looting becomes tedious

Wonky AI that can break immersion and be exploited easily

Auroras are impressive and unique in all their features, expand on them! maybe make them the key to getting electricity back in some places, make them more useful and exciting occasions

I'm no expert in canadian wildlife, but shouldn't there be a couple extra animals? birds, insects, surviving dogs maybe?

And that's mostly it I think ,these are the things that make me leave the game after a couple hours even with its beautiful atmosphere and immersion, this game needs a bit of fleshing out IMHO and after that it could easily become a real masterpiece, something you could easily sell at full price and keep thousands of players happy for years, and that's all, I'll come back in time for the next update and have fun again.. till it lasts

 

 

 

[ManicManiac]

2 minutes ago, Niev said:

I wouldn't want to lose the main feeling of the game, but only add stuff to do in it and give players more choice about what they can do their survival

Fair enough

I didn't intend to cause a ruckus, I only meant to add my perspective.

[Niev]

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

Fair enough

I didn't intend to cause a ruckus, I only meant to add my perspective.

which is valued and the fuel we need to have this discussion, if new stuff were to be added it would be important to listen to all fans and have multiple perspectives and opinions, as for the rest no ruckus for me, through internet and heat of discussion some things can sound different than what you actually mean, I understood it was the case and saw the good in it, so no problem here

[haft2doit]

@NievMy main goal, having made a post like your OP in my past was to suggest taking a step back.  It's obvious to me you really enjoyed the game and wanted to keep going, but couldn't justify continuing.  I have been there with this game and others.  If I were to have just said "ok time for a new thing for a bit" and still felt like I wanted to let devs and others hear my thoughts after a couple days, I might have started with :

Quote

Niev: given the sheer quality of the game I would like it to be a whole book series that I could read for months and months on end, instead of a fleeting pleasure

As for the features themselves that I feel are missing, and trying to narrow down the list as much as possible to give concise feedback to the devs about what stood out the most to me while playing (technically and content wise): 

Inability to hop over very small obstacles and generally clunky movement, when I'm carrying 30 kg of stuff I expect to be slow and clunky but that's all the time, encumberance actually plays less of a factor than in games like Skyrim, which is crazy

Absence of physics and related baggage (can't carry stuff dynamically, strange collision detection, invisible slopes spraining you, can't personalize spaces or move furniture)

Limited interactivity and unusable resources that are nonethless available but "static", no curing meat, lack of very basic and realistic building, things you would do given the time and expertise in an apocalypse

Little variety in items, no brands or qualities outside of %numbers, nothing ever surprises you after a couple hours of gameplay, looting becomes tedious

Wonky AI that can break immersion and be exploited easily

Auroras are impressive and unique in all their features, expand on them! maybe make them the key to getting electricity back in some places, make them more useful and exciting occasions

I'm no expert in canadian wildlife, but shouldn't there be a couple extra animals? birds, insects, surviving dogs maybe?

And that's mostly it I think ,these are the things that make me leave the game after a couple hours even with its beautiful atmosphere and immersion, this game needs a bit of fleshing out IMHO and after that it could easily become a real masterpiece, something you could easily sell at full price and keep thousands of players happy for years, and that's all, I'll come back in time for the next update and have fun again.. till it lasts

Not in any way saying your OP isn't valid, however I would say it's unlikely to get the attention of the devs, or have the best chance at engaging other players. I think you have valid points here, and this is by no means a demand... I suggest getting something like what you wrote above into a new thread with a different title, and also throw a link in your OP directing people to the new thread.  It might be worth a fresh start.  just my two cents nothing more.

Edited September 1, 2020 by haft2doit
grammar

[Dan_]

To the OP, I get exactly what you're saying @Niev.

There's this amazing curve of... quality to this game. Meaning, the early experience is phenomenal and gets you on edge and addicted quickly, it compounds with the amazing ambiance, the incredible visuals, the beautifully crafted sound design ( one of the strongest points of the game, IMO ) and interesting survival and crafting mechanics that take a given level of progression (in-game and player skill progression) to achieve. The first experience is just brilliant and makes a mark on us. 

After you get your game set up and your playing skill increase, you start to find the game to be easy and that early dose of adrenalin is suddenly gone. This is where the people that usually post here diverge, because you can find new ways to enjoy the game or it kinda grows stale and repetitive, which is why many ( myself included ) try and find challenges to get that early game fix back, but to be honest, you're just fiddling with the game mechanics at this point, the game is never the same again after you conquered it.

So I can see the whys in your post and I agree that the usual steam gamer will drift towards other survival titles after a few hours in TLD. Hence why the developers have put a ton of focus on improving and finishing story mode, I guess this is the 'canon' way to play the game and this is how they cater to this target (and much larger) audience, structured gameplay and storytelling.

Posts like yours help Hinterland immensely I feel. I think I'd love to see your late game ideas implemented ( or at least considered ) and I can see the general idea behind improving and building upon the general state of the late game. By now, I feel like every change and addition will have story mode as a primary driver and that's great, any new content is absolutely great past my 800hrs of gameplay. But having fresh takes of feedback is always refreshing to see and given HL's track record of usually hitting the marks with their careful game balancing, I'm pretty sure many of these ideas float around in their brainstorming sessions. 

Never hold back on feedback, just keep the long posts coming.

 

[odizzido]

On 8/31/2020 at 7:48 AM, Niev said:

when you look at it objectively, this game is unfinished and in need of more content.

Well, the game is unfinished and still in development. Really the game is in early access though I am not sure it's advertised that way(it should be). I purchased TLD because I wanted to give a little extra money to the development of the game. Whether that will pay off or not I am not sure yet but the reworking of the story mode says that everyone who did buy in early did make a difference. I am happy with that and like that they upped the quality, though I know a lot of people don't like the delays. I am patient though, I don't mind waiting for a higher quality product. I like it.

I do agree with a lot of that you say. This game is best when you're not sure if you're going to survive the week but the difficulty drops to trivial levels as you get better gear and such. I want to die in TLD, but claw every last day I can. Unfortunately past day 30 or so it's almost impossible to die unless it's on purpose since difficulty has an inverse curve to what I would like.

I am mostly waiting for the story mode myself. That's the most interesting thing for me. I do however have a more interesting game of TLD survival going, though factorio has been taking a lot of my time recently since that released a few days ago so I haven't been playing TLD really. The TLD game I have going has some new settings which I hope will give me that difficulty curve I want, but we will see.

 

I also agree that exploration has very little value in TLD. There is nothing unique about any location so if you have everything you need exploration is all risk with no reward. This changed a little bit with bleak inlet and forges provide some incentive for travel which is nice.....but bleak inlet isn't worth it to me and a forge is a one time stop where you craft all you need in one go, at least that's how it works out for how I play.

 

I would love to see TLD get some new mid and late game challenges in there instead of just chucking more wolves at you. I can get combat survival in lots of other games and it's much much better. What TLD has done well is survival against the environment and in that way it can be excellent. That's what I would very much like to be expanded upon.

[Vince 49]

On 8/31/2020 at 12:39 PM, Azdrawee said:

I don't agree with everything, but you definitely have some great points. I love TLD and imo, it either needs to raise the stakes and be much harder even late-game, or it needs to add more late-game content... ideally both. It sounds like you're not aware of this, but TLD is still receiving survival mode updates (not just story), last two of these updates extended late-game gameplay quite a bit, so I feel like Hinterland is actively trying to improve this.

@Azdrawee, I may have missed something.  What are the late game improvements included in the last two updates?