Making a case for a jump mechanic that may appeal to Hinterland?

[odizzido]

I jump reasonably often. A number of times this year, but I didn't go out as much. But I live in an area that benefits from it. Also if I couldn't lift my legs you can bet I would be jumping far more often. Stairs, door lips, etc

[oplli]

On 10/17/2020 at 11:17 PM, OdaSamurai said:

Maybe you can't, but you sure can vault over a fence, or over a tree trunk

No to JUMPING, yes.

 

i agree but by doing that you are almost certain to fell off so i agree with you, it is worth it to vault over a fence for a possible chance to sprain you ankle or just have a funny animation where you fall  

[OdaSamurai]

  

18 hours ago, oplli said:

i agree but by doing that you are almost certain to fell off so i agree with you, it is worth it to vault over a fence for a possible chance to sprain you ankle or just have a funny animation where you fall  

 

That's actually a great improvement I didn't think of

Edited October 20, 2020 by OdaSamurai

[Mroz4k]

Hello!

As most mentioned here, jumping is problematic. While I dont think its impossible to jump in a full gear (I mean, Im pretty sure soldiers do it, might not  be a long jump but sometimes it is neccesary, even during hiking to pass some obstacles) there are also mechanical issues to be considered. (although, jumping in snow is generally pretty difficult)

First of the mechanical issues I havent seen anyone mention is when you are being pursued or stalked by an animal. When the predator is after you, and you reach a certain area where they cannot reach you, they instantly switch to "flee" mode (only exception are timberwolves). So, in itself, if you jump and arent considered to be "on the ground, reachable" that would in theory reset pursue. And, even if it didnt, simply using the jump to get into areas that are not accessible by animals would. This would make hunting significantly less risky.

Then there is the matter of possibly using jump to travel faster, avoid areas where you would need to make a huge detour othervise, and so on - but I think these could be fixed if jumping make you tired much faster and sapped your other resources like hunger and thirst faster.

That said, I really agree with some of the people here about vaulting. If this allowed to traverse some obstacles like small piles of snow, fences burried almost entirely in snow, branches and logs... you name it. It would make sense, and I agree with @oplli on the fact that it should carry a significant risk of spraining an ankle and also should not be possible with a sprained ankle. The amount of gear should also increase the risk of spraining an ankle, and at certain weight (10kg over non-overencumbered state, so 40kg-50kg) it shouldnt be possible. It would also take about 15% of your current stamina bar. 

It would be invaluable if you want to make a shortcut in some areas and to be able to get yourself out of some trap areas as there are still quite a few of those left in the world, the map is not perfect.

I am all for the ability to vault. I see a lot of benefits to it as a mechanic.

[oplli]

3 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

First of the mechanical issues I havent seen anyone mention is when you are being pursued or stalked by an animal. When the predator is after you, and you reach a certain area where they cannot reach you, they instantly switch to "flee" mode (only exception are timberwolves). So, in itself, if you jump and arent considered to be "on the ground, reachable" that would in theory reset pursue. And, even if it didnt, simply using the jump to get into areas that are not accessible by animals would. This would make hunting significantly less risky.

i think the whole fight and stalk system is for now broken and need to be tweaked. it is way to easy to escape a wolf encounter (bears a fine) so i hope Hinterland will fix that. if it will be fixed i think that vaulting over a fence would be okay to avoid a wolf encounter but if you only vault over a car hood the wolf shouldn't flee. it makes no sense beacause he can access you after you vaulted. i hope it will be fixed.  

[Robbiieeee]

I think rather than a manual jump mechanic, the option to find jump positions would be better. For example on broken railroads you can find the option to 'press space to jump across'. Just for fun, your weight and energy play a factor. If your player feels it is too dangerous you'll get a hud notificiation and a dialogue telling you so 

[Gun Tech.]

Everyone already seems to know everything that's wrong with a small jump that will solve all the snags problems, and cause no new ones. It won't even let you jump over sparking wires. Just over a flat plank on the ground, or a protruding ice floe (which was actually a place to get stuck in FM before they removed the offending ice floes).

No jump causes more problems than it solves. Err... well, lack of jump actually doesn't solve a single problem, it just causes them.

[oplli]

i dont think so @Gun Tech. the wold isnt made for jump mechanics. they would have to add borders to the map wich would add time and test all their maps from a to z and the time it would take to just get rid of all the bugs would probably be the same than finishing the game. the maps just havent been made for that

[ajb1978]

On 10/18/2020 at 5:42 PM, odizzido said:

Your bomber jacket is really heavy.

It is!  Leather exterior, fleece interior, hood, plus some flaps with buckles that approximate a built-in scarf or face covering.  Frankly I think my bomber jacket is superior to the expedition parka in the game.  It's insanely warm, tough, and waterproof.  But excessively bulky.  I'm not sure I even COULD wear two of these at once.

[UTC-10]

14 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

It is!  Leather exterior, fleece interior, hood, plus some flaps with buckles that approximate a built-in scarf or face covering.  Frankly I think my bomber jacket is superior to the expedition parka in the game.  It's insanely warm, tough, and waterproof.  But excessively bulky.  I'm not sure I even COULD wear two of these at once.

But wouldn't you like to have two so you can find out by direct experimentation and tell us how well or poorly it worked? 😁

[ajb1978]

1 minute ago, UTC-10 said:

But wouldn't you like to have two so you can find out by direct experimentation and tell us how well or poorly it worked? 😁

It's about 400 bucks, if you want to get me one I'll try it lol

[Mr. 0]

I am aware how jumping can break this game, but i am annoyed by small obstacles. There are two ways:

1. Remove colision from small items.

2. Implement "jump" just for obstacles as camera animation. Then you jump over certain items, like logs and fallen trees.

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Mr. 0

[oplli]

40 minutes ago, Mr. 0 said:

I am aware how jumping can break this game, but i am annoyed by small obstacles. There are two ways:

1. Remove colision from small items.

2. Implement "jump" just for obstacles as camera animation. Then you jump over certain items, like logs and fallen trees.

 

 

It would be nice to be able to vault. I was seconding that idea before but now that i thaught about it i dont think it would be a change that we want really, let me explain. It is absolutely not as easy as you are telling us. Being able to jump will make the devs work hard and during a long time to correct the bugs and the map desing (all the maps would need to be made over again.) to fit the new mechanic. on another hand, vaulting over objects would fit the playstyle of the game but it would take a lot of time too to achieve, correct the bugs, and modifying every maps to make us able to vault over every object that would make sense to vault over. this means creating a new mechanic, adapting it to every region in the world at every fences, rocks, small obstacles etc. without saying that it would considerably add time to create new maps or modify current ones. This is the type of mechanics that yo uhave to implement while starting to create a game and not in the middle of its creation.

this would be the project of a life and all that only to be able to vault over fences once in a while. I MUCH MUCH prefer seeing WINTERMUTE done and a lot of new content added to the game with survival mode updates before having this new mechanic. I would go further and say that i would prefer see hinterland makes all their other games that they want to do before being able to vault in the long dark. I dont know how much time it would take but i know that it would be a lot. i have worked a bit with unity in the past so i pretty much know what i am saying.

Edited October 25, 2020 by oplli

[odizzido]

Last time I played I got stuck on a snow drift on the road. It was sad to see my character get stuck like that, though I guess on default settings our character traded the ability to get over 2cm high snow drifts for the ability to shrug off near death bear maulings within a day.

[oplli]

Then report it to the support i dont think jumping is the solution

Edited October 25, 2020 by oplli

[odizzido]

Too much work, there are like 5000 spots I get stuck on. Twigs and pebbles and bits of snow, tiny pieces of wood and such.

[UTC-10]

We might want to be more precise in what is meant by stuck. 

There is stuck where once in a location the character cannot leave the location - i.e. they have fallen/stepped into a depression and since the depth of the depression exceeds how high one can step the character is stuck. 

There is stuck where the character runs up against some raised object that blocks forward progress but can be gotten around/passed. 

One breaks a players game (though there is the quit and reload) and the other is an inconvenience since the player is not permanently stopped.  That does not mean that the inconvenience should be ignored, but in the priority of things to do or need fixing that is not as important.

I remember in Coastal Highway where the log rafts at Log Sort used to be easy to traverse, almost effortless.  Then that got changed and it became more of a problem to traverse the rafts.  It was not as casual an action.  Then, episode 3? or recent update, it became easy to traverse the log rafts.  I have also notice, at least on the docks, that uneven decks do not get in the way like they used to.  This is not to say that this effect was completely  uniform for I still get a few frustrating instances where something could not be cross directly but I was not unable to move around it. 

I know nothing about how TLD and Hinterland adjudicate this kind of movement, but I would hope the devs would give serious consideration to extending it as much as possible. 

[Mroz4k]

Not saying it is gracious, but there are is a fix to being "stuck". Simply close a game and load it again. You get to start from the last point. Well, tough luck, but that is your punishment for doing something stupid (Yes, I do it sometimes too, and lets not lie to ourselves - if we do get stuck, its always our own fault. It always starts with "I wonder if I can get stuck in that bowl" kind of thing, or when we are "cheesing" the game by "climbing down" an almost vertical rock wall only to fall into a crevisse of unpassable floats.)

Reloading is our punishment.

As for the "I get stuck on the tiniest of hills on the road" argument - that is kinda the game. I dont mind it personally that much, it adds to a difficulty of the game, as you need to walk past, and that often might mean having to come closer to that wolf that you want to avoid. And I think people oversimplify the "tiny hills" - I think its also a matter of our field of vision as a player. The tiny hills we cant cross over are probably higher then we think, I believe the field of vision of a player is actually quite closer to the ground then a standing human of average height would have. Or is it just me that feels that crouching means almost crawling on the ground? Think of all the holes you need to crawl through in caves and how small they look when you look at them from standing up.

I believe @oplli has a point, too. While I dont think vaulting would be that major of a change, there is a high possibility that maps would have to be reworked. Thought I dont think thats such a bad idea. It will have to happen eventually anyways as the game progresses and gets more ellaborate. Take the thick brushes for example. As much as I love Mystery lake region with all my heart, the fact that region has basically no bush vegetation makes it feel somewhat unnatural when you consider it. If these regions were reworked to add more thick brushes, bushes and other obstacles we might get in the future game, I think it would breathe in new life into the older zones.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Mroz4k

[Mroz4k]

On 10/24/2020 at 3:40 PM, Gun Tech. said:

Everyone already seems to know everything that's wrong with a small jump that will solve all the snags problems, and cause no new ones. It won't even let you jump over sparking wires. Just over a flat plank on the ground, or a protruding ice floe (which was actually a place to get stuck in FM before they removed the offending ice floes).

Please dont take it personally, it is a good thing that we have a discussion about it, its through this discussion we can talk merits and demerits of these ideas and provide that creative spark for the devs to improve the game.

On 10/24/2020 at 3:40 PM, Gun Tech. said:

No jump causes more problems than it solves. Err... well, lack of jump actually doesn't solve a single problem, it just causes them.

I respectfully disagree. It would solve some of the problems, that is true. It would, however, create a whole lot of other problems in its stead. As was discussed by others - the issues of cheesing animals, make shortcuts in the maps where they werent intended, getting into places where the player was never meant to go, which in turns creates a lot of other issues - what if those areas are not solid and your character just falls into endless void? It would also mean a significant re-shaping of the entire world.

I must say I agree with @oplli.

However, I am not against the idea of jumping as it is. even after vaulting. But it would need to be added cleverly to avoid the issues that would arise from it, or it would have to be added with a significant adjustment of the current game. Which is easier said then done.

On 10/21/2020 at 12:24 AM, oplli said:

i think the whole fight and stalk system is for now broken and need to be tweaked. it is way to easy to escape a wolf encounter (bears a fine) so i hope Hinterland will fix that. if it will be fixed i think that vaulting over a fence would be okay to avoid a wolf encounter but if you only vault over a car hood the wolf shouldn't flee. it makes no sense beacause he can access you after you vaulted. i hope it will be fixed.  

Couldnt agree more with this. 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Mroz4k

[Mr. 0]

21 hours ago, oplli said:

It would be nice to be able to vault. I was seconding that idea before but now that i thaught about it i dont think it would be a change that we want really, let me explain. It is absolutely not as easy as you are telling us. Being able to jump will make the devs work hard and during a long time to correct the bugs and the map desing (all the maps would need to be made over again.) to fit the new mechanic. on another hand, vaulting over objects would fit the playstyle of the game but it would take a lot of time too to achieve, correct the bugs, and modifying every maps to make us able to vault over every object that would make sense to vault over. this means creating a new mechanic, adapting it to every region in the world at every fences, rocks, small obstacles etc. without saying that it would considerably add time to create new maps or modify current ones. This is the type of mechanics that yo uhave to implement while starting to create a game and not in the middle of its creation.

this would be the project of a life and all that only to be able to vault over fences once in a while. I MUCH MUCH prefer seeing WINTERMUTE done and a lot of new content added to the game with survival mode updates before having this new mechanic. I would go further and say that i would prefer see hinterland makes all their other games that they want to do before being able to vault in the long dark. I dont know how much time it would take but i know that it would be a lot. i have worked a bit with unity in the past so i pretty much know what i am saying.

I dont think it so difficult, probably work for a week or two when using vault system i have met in old czech game "Vietcong" (i made some maps there), there was special object in level editor. Something like space restrictor or trigger (invisible in normal game), you could set shape and dimensions all you want and when you were in reach of this object and while pressing key for jumping, you performed a vault over obstacle. There were a many variants for each style of vault. So you placed it over obstacle (tree, box, wall) in editor. Because modable shape and dimensions you could use one trigger per one long linear obstacle.

TLD is easier you dont need to position legs or hands with obstacle, you dont seem them. I think it would be worth of effort.

 

 

[Mroz4k]

6 minutes ago, Mr. 0 said:

I dont think it so difficult, probably work for a week or two when using vault system i have met in old czech game "Vietcong" (i made some maps there), there was special object in level editor. Something like space restrictor or trigger (invisible in normal game), you could set shape and dimensions all you want and when you were in reach of this object and while pressing key for jumping, you performed a vault over obstacle. There were a many variants for each style of vault. So you placed it over obstacle (tree, box, wall) in editor. Because modable shape and dimensions you could use one trigger per one long linear obstacle.

TLD is easier you dont need to position legs or hands with obstacle, you dont seem them. I think it would be worth of effort.

 

 

If anything Hinterland are kinda proud of their quality. Their content takes a while to come out, but when it does, it has been polished into perfection as I believe they test everything meticulously.

I personally think it would be a huge undertaking, especially keeping in mind how proud they are of their quality. 

I believe the ability to vault would be a decent addition in the form of a mod once modding option is supported. I believe there were some unsupported mods for the game in the past and one of them had vaulting as an option. I never played  that sort of modded game so I wouldnt know much about it. But from what I remember other forum members write about it, those mods left a lot to be desired.

I dont think it would be impossible to add that sort of mechanic, but the additional work on re-building the maps to do it your way would for sure take while. Even more with all the testing they would do to ensure it was a top-quality addition.

[Gun Tech.]

The 1' jump I'm talking about will not cause any map editing, while the ice floes I mentioned have already caused map editing because of refusing a small jump.

Lifting your leg (which, same as jumping) is possible when wearing a backpack IRL to get over small obstacles is an alternative solution, but a jump bind is normal. A 'lift your leg 5" off the ground' bind is weird. Automatic would be fine, especially for ice floes, planks, and the like.

I also think it's good that it's being discussed. It's being discussed because TLD is the only game without a jump bind.

The trick is not to convince players that it would solve problems though, the trick is to convince the devs. Hence the title. They have to like it enough to put it in. Maybe someone will come up with an alternative idea to mine that will make it into the game and then more 'umm... that's just stupid. sigh.' moments will be removed from the walking part of this awesome survival sim.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Gun Tech.

[oplli]

4 hours ago, Mr. 0 said:

Something like space restrictor or trigger (invisible in normal game), you could set shape and dimensions all you want and when you were in reach of this object and while pressing key for jumping, you performed a vault over obstacle. There were a many variants for each style of vault. So you placed it over obstacle (tree, box, wall) in editor

Exactly imagine doing that for EVERY obstacle that is "vaultable" and on every of the 15 existing maps (including transition zones). That only would be an enormous job and that is not all. they are only 30 people in the studion and they are not working 24h all on vaulting. they need to create one or two animation too and test if there is no bug for EVERY obstacle that is "vaultable" and on every of the 15 existing maps............. that would take sooooo long only to be able to vault? maybe but i want wintermute finished before  

the devs are giving free content for more than 6 years now multiple time a year and they will continue until wintermute is done. wich is in a long time probably 2 or 3 years so i dont think they will be investing that much time on a little mechanics that will not add that much new gameplay or at all...

 

Edit: that would probably even worse with the jump mechanic as they would need to test every cm of the map

and besides of that this would not look good in the long dark. i am okay with no jumping. Actually i NEVER tried to jump until they added the quick menu that we can access with the spacebar. I played 2 years without even knowing we could'nt jump in this game   it think it would just make the game less realistic and less enjoyable... less nostalgic too.

Edited October 27, 2020 by oplli

[odizzido]

20 hours ago, oplli said:

the devs are giving free content for more than 6 years now

Uh not they're not. We've paid for the content already, in early access, in good faith to fund development of the game like a publisher does. We took the risk of buying an unfinished product with the hope that we will get something good in the end. They are not charging like paradox does which is good because I don't buy their games because of how they operate with their hollow shell of a game for full price to be filled in with an actual game with DLC chunks which ends up costing 800 dollars. I am still disappointed they're making that new vampire game, what a waste. Oh well.

 

21 hours ago, Gun Tech. said:

I also think it's good that it's being discussed. It's being discussed because TLD is the only game without a jump bind.

The trick is not to convince players that it would solve problems though, the trick is to convince the devs. Hence the title. They have to like it enough to put it in. Maybe someone will come up with an alternative idea to mine that will make it into the game and then more 'umm... that's just stupid. sigh.' moments will be removed from the walking part of this awesome survival sim.

I would love to not have those moments of me going "oh for fricks sake" while getting jammed up in twigs

Also another game without jump was alien isolation. I specifically remember early in the game I was trying to get through a spot and there was this perfectly passable object acting like a brick wall. I sit there going "really?...". Thankfully that seemed to go away after the first part and I think a big difference between alien isolation and TLD is that in alien I wasn't getting stuck on every knocked over mug like I do in TLD. The game worked well without jump. Sadly I don't feel that TLD does.

[oplli]

18 minutes ago, odizzido said:

Uh not they're not

They are absolutely giving content for free. Yes they make money but their expansion is limited by the cost of the development wich is big. 

I have spent 800 hours playing this game... i only paid it 20$ it is NOTHING of a risk . i actually paid the game 0.025$/hour that is nothing (it is free) and yes you buyed it once but the devs still need money to develop their game and i understand them to at least worry about it. After wintermute episode 5 is released they are probably going to release DLC'S wich is fine i dont understand why you hate it it keeps the game you like alive and i am shure if you are here on this forum is beacause you liek the game.