Making a case for a jump mechanic that may appeal to Hinterland?

[Gun Tech.]

The suggestion is simply to add one, but make it the opposite of Tarzan and unusable for billygoating to get us into trouble. After all, you're carrying a backpack. Small and slightly forward, just enough to get you over small snags that the Survivor should reasonably be able to lift his or her leg over.

Game balancing could be achieved by paying 1-3% Energy for each jump. This would then finally give us a mechanic which lets us fatigue ourselves enough to sleep until morning. E.g. crafting, reading, harvesting, repairing refuses to tire us out, and we can sleep off the effects of possible food poisoning, broken ribs, or other affliction without repetitive running around as now.

If further game balancing is needed, then if you jump on weak ice, you immediately fall in, and if you jump on a slope, sprain risk could be increased.

If balancing by losing energy is rejected, then non-skillbooks could be made to have a purpose other than firewood: tiring you out twice as fast as normal walking (reading 1h removes 2h Energy). Ordinary books could then be a valuable find depending on circumstance.

[ManicManiac]

Jumping?  No thank you.

It's been discussed often in the past, so I will just echo what I've mentioned before:

Quote

It's not really that much of an issue... sure it requires the player to play more attention, but even with the game as is we can get still manage to "climb mountains" and even get to areas on the map that (strickly speaking) we're not necessarily meant to get to.

 
Also, considering wild life can't "jump" either... I would say then that it's consistent and therefore still fair.  As I've been saying more and more theses days... it's up to us to find creative ways to live in the world that's been provided for us.  If we work at it a little bit... I find that the inability to "jump" or "step over things" isn't really much of an issue.

On 10/8/2019 at 12:17 AM, ManicManiac said:

Here's how I see it... the particular rules so far seem very consistent.  Like I was saying earlier, it's all just a part of the reality your character exists in.  All of the other creatures in The Long Dark can't jump/step up either (no I'm not counting attack animations, because it's just an animation and not an actual method of locomotion around the environment).  Everything in the world appears to be on equal footing, so it's fair (I acknowledge I can't see the code so I can't know for sure).  Even with the system set up the way it is, a player can still scale up many surfaces and inclines in ways that the animals can't (because they are not capable of being creative, they just have pathfinding algorithms).  In that regard the player always has the distinct advantage of being able to think creatively and use the mechanics to the utmost that the world allows.

For another example just because you're conditioned to have a jumping mechanic from other games does not mean it's "immersion breaking" just because you don't have a mechanic that you expected in another game.  It's just a design choice.  We can either accept the "reality" we are playing in, or we can choose to let small perceived inconveniences ruin our experience; and that's a personal choice.

The point is... we can't just look to the sky and fly off in the air, and we accept this because that's just part of the reality we live in.  Likewise, in the world of The Long Dark we can't jump/step up, that's also just part of that reality we're playing in.  We may certainly not like it, that's our right.  If we really don't like it we can play something that we like better.

 

Also, here is what Raph mentioned about the subject back in Milton Mailbag Dispatch 10:

On 9/7/2018 at 10:58 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

Our world was not built for jumping. It's not an action that offers any specific gameplay benefit for a survivor. Most low obstacles can be walked over (and if you get stuck, it's either a bug or something you aren't mean to walk over), you can't really out-run predators for the most part, etc. At the moment, jumping would only offer risks -- bad landings ending up with sprains, etc. People often ask for a jump action because they are used to first-person shooters having a jump action, but those games are built around having a jump action. There aren't really any instances in The Long Dark -- apart from collision bugs or poorly placed obstacles maybe -- where a Jump action would be beneficial. At least, not currently. If we create some useful gameplay scenarios we feel would benefit from a Jump action, we'll consider adding it. But, a lot of the "boundaries" of our world would have to be revisited which would create an enormous amount of work. So the gameplay that needs Jumping would have to be pretty compelling!!

Frankly I just don't think this idea would add enough to warrant all the time and resources (and debugging) that would be needed to shoehorn a jump mechanic in so late in the game.
In my opinion, I just do not think we need a jump mechanic... it just doesn't seem necessary (especially considering that pack and heavy winter gear we're wearing ).

Edited August 28, 2020 by ManicManiac

[odizzido]

I am neither for or against jumping. I think having jump would solve all of my issues though. What I really want is to be able to step over twigs. Getting jammed up on all these tiny things that I could just step over in real life is sucky. I never know which item is too high and what isn't which leaves me guessing and back tracking. Having to turn back to fight a bear because a little ankle high rock was in the way of the path you chose is frustrating. It's the same problem with hills. You never know which hill is that one degree over the maximum you can get up. Having a little bit of a darker texture so we can see which hills are doable would be really helpful I think. I think a lot of the problem is that I know I can personally get up much steeper hills so it becomes hard to judge what our amazingly competent yet incompetent character can do.

Edited August 28, 2020 by odizzido

[gotmilkanot]

I'm fine with no jumping in this game but there should be, at the very least, the ability to vault over short fences or tree branches.

I know we're carrying a 40kg backpack but if we can climb ropes and ledges with it then I don't see why the game doesn't allow us to step over tree branches. For vaulting over short fences, I don't mean it like how they do it in shooter games but just a slow and careful one will do (like you put one leg over and sit on the fence, and get the other leg in).

Edited August 29, 2020 by gotmilkanot

[UTC-10]

Whatever one does do not call it a "jump mechanic" since that implies provisions for a "jump" which has been discussed elsewhere.  An ingame command to "jump" would lead to complaints about "why can't I jump higher" etc. 

What is being suggested can be a more tolerant capacity for a player to not be stymied by very short obstacles that anyone would expect could be stepped over.  We've probably all been walking along a snow-drifted road and suddenly come to a halt because a 3 or 6 inch high mound of snow has a slope that the game defines as unclimbable.  Try the uneven dock walkways with a 4x4 at an angle sticking up an inch or two, portions of walkways on the ground of Hibernia, portions of railroad tracks, and even campfires (burned out ones to be safe 🙂) and you have to back off, strafe to one side a bit or turn, etc. to cross it. 

That big bowl in the Camp Office by the upstairs stove was one where a character could step into it, but could not get out because the bowl's sides were vertical which the player can't "climb".  The devs fixed that, like other inadvertent "traps" by putting a "lid" over the top (I think that is what they did) so they didn't have to fix the issue of "climbing up a vertical surface" even if the surface was only a few inches high. 

I can imagine that the game sees a character as moving forward and when he encounters a slope the game checks where it can be climbed but does not know that the slope is only 6 inches long/high so the character can't cross it.  I suppose putting in some way for the game to know what kind of slope (i.e. that it can be stepped over) might be more problematic and more work than the devs want to monkey with.

[odizzido]

Perhaps it might take some effort, but it really would solve a lot of problems. I consistently get jammed up on small objects in TLD and removing that issue would be a pretty nice playability bonus for me. Maybe they wouldn't have to worry about every little thing on the maps then since people wouldn't be getting stuck nearly as often.

[Patriot]

I agree with @ManicManiac on this point.

Now there are parts where you're left scratching your head..."why can't I step over this plank?" or other benign things that for some reason you're forced to walk around. Regardless of that I think implementing jumping would be a poor solution. Perhaps adjusting the game to allow to move over some of these things, but I would "guess" that the reason that hasn't been done already is to avoid a plethora of bugs that may occur.

[Gun Tech.]

The ability for PC/NPC to detect obstacles and traverse them is already built into the FPS template this game is based on. See e.g. deer traversing logs at Trapper's. For the PC, this is not what you want; the camera would jump without the player knowing what's going on. You can see this handled well in many small indie titles, so there's no problem having it. I suggest that the jump should be small only so that it can be added this late without changes to the world.

With a manual trigger (keybind), it would only have to be handled when pressed, and a distance over which the PC could lift his/her leg is established. E.g. planks, pallets, stairs, porches. This might help with obstacles not perceived as obstacles by players of any other game. Fences, steep snowbanks, and big rocks are different from this. The camera moves by command of the player, so the player knows what's going on.

This speaks to the feature itself.

If a feature is tweaked and balanced, it becomes a mechanic; the game becomes deeper and more enjoyable. Much time and effort has been spent on balancing in TLD, to make it a simulator with depth. I offer some balancing ideas to make the feature a mechanic, as per thread title.

This to get suggestions that it's hard to implement out of the way, because it's not and this in my meaning muddles the discussion.

I'm also skeptical towards opinions that "we shouldn't" want this mechanic added. Unlike other mechanics added from or without player suggestions, if you don't want to jump, just don't press the keybind.

What's left is arguments that jumping hinders more than it helps, which is hard to see since it's recurred as a missing feature and would help, and ideas about how to balance it. Experienced players might protest change even though the feature is opt-in and wouldn't affect their gameplay. Such a vote is neutral with regards to the suggestion, but it's certainly a valid vote to count when deciding whether to spend the time implementing it.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Gun Tech.

[ManicManiac]

And that's wonderful... I think it's great to be able to discuss these kinds of ideas.
I also think it's important to be able to discuss both likes and dislikes pertaining to it.

The player can already traverse most minor obstetrics, much like the deer or wolf can... I even noticed in previous updates when we were able to "step over" the curb in front of the Rural Store (and we still can if memory serves).  So I still think that since we and the rest of the inhabitants of Great Bear Island are on equal footing (so to speak) that it's still fine as it is now, and I don't see any need for a jump mechanic.

I just don't see how being able to hop will make the game any deeper.

We don't agree... and that's okay.

Edited August 31, 2020 by ManicManiac

[ajb1978]

There was a meme floating around for a while which showed Will with an enormous mountain of junk on his back, using the in-game images of items.  Even down to a bunch of cups of tea strung on a line around his neck.  The caption was something like "And you wonder why I can't jump."

But in all seriousness, that's pretty true.  If you're carrying a ton of gear, you're not going to be jumping.  If you do need to get over something, you'll crawl over it, so in that regard a "vault" button does make sense.  Something simple, like if you are within a certain distance of an obstacle, that is say 1 meter or less in height, you can slowly crawl up onto it.  Enough to get over a crate or something. If the obstacle is too high, or if there isn't enough room on top of the obstacle for the player to stand, nothing happens.  I can think of several locations in Forlorn Muskeg where I'll want to get up on a fallen tree bridge, but the angles just aren't right.  And it's like come on dude, just sit down on it, swing your legs up, then stand.  Not a big deal.

[thefistoffury1]

Jumping in The Long Dark is pretty ridiculous, considering the snow you're walking on, heavy load on your back etc. But a teeny tiny 5-10 cm (2-4 inch) obstacle like a tiny lip between surfaces or a limb just barely in your way becomes a massive stress when pursued by death puppers (wolves) or their better-textured silver cousins.

A nice way to split the difference is have the game engage a tiny automatic skip if the higher surface (no more than 8 inches/ 20cm in my opinion) you're trying to reach isn't snow or ice. There are plenty of wood/steel surfaces where planks lead to floors you can't reach, or you can't backtrack because you got over the tiny lip from the higher side first.

 

Minor nuisances, really, but these moments annoy me quite a bit.

[UTC-10]

Anything that gets called a jump is going to engender complaints about it being too little.  Many people expect that if there is a jump mechanic that it means a "substantial" height or distance and if they don't get that they will complain incessantly about "is this a jump?!?". 

I have noticed especially at Log Sort that some of the "climb" up mechanics have been eased.  I remember when getting onto the ice-bound logs from the ice surface was a bit of a struggle after previously being mostly trivial.  Now, it is back to being relatively trivial to do so.  I  hope that it stays mostly like that. I have also noticed maybe a bit less of a being blocked by odd pieces of timber that jut up or have uneven surfaces on partially collapsed docks.

I still run across instances where I cannot cross a railroad track because the railroad tracks are "too high" for me to "climb" I guess, but that is more here and there.  I think I still occasionally run into small snowdrifts on the roads that are completely impassable. 😁

So maybe being a bit looser on crossing small obstacles might help a lot in place of a "jump" mechanic. 

[Gun Tech.]

The Long Dark is unique in tiny snags being impassable obstacles. Players coming from any other game would wonder we this hasn't been solved like in all the other games. Their first thought will be to check the jump bind, and find that there isn't one.

In the other games, this is solved by having a minimum height difference collision check. Of those games, the ones that should have impassable objects have this, and likely many checks for geometry that should be handled specially, to not let the player pass or to not let the player get stuck.

This is normally a bit of work and requires testing. A small jump (following the implementation that I have described) would take care of the small snags, and allow no illegal shortcuts, with a minimum of work and testing.

There is no appeal to realism in not wanting a player to be able to jump. Humans wearing backpacks can jump, small jumps if the backpack is heavy. Furthermore, they can climb mountains, step over a plank, and step over a log wearing heavy backpacks.

[ManicManiac]

On 9/1/2020 at 3:00 AM, ManicManiac said:

The player can already traverse most minor obstetrics, much like the deer or wolf can... I even noticed in previous updates when we were able to "step over" small steps like (for example) the curb in front of the Rural Store, as well as things like some of the fallen logs.

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by ManicManiac

[OdaSamurai]

I think the first thing that should be done to get even a chance at that, is to just stop calling it "JUMP" mechanic.

Call it vault, call it transverse, goddam, call it "obstacle course mechanics" for all I know, just don't call it jump, cause jump, has already beem rulled out, and most of the community really doesn't want that, as I see it (I might be wrong, gather numbers and prove me wrong then).

However, vaulting over small objects, could be QOL change.
As an example, I'd say the fence over the farmstead both on Milton, and on Pleasant Valley

It's just a couple of meters really, won't make A LOT of difference on the gameplay, BUT, it's quality of life, makes people happy to be able to transverse a obstacle that otherwise would just annoy them

No need for jumps really, but vaulting - that has already been brought up, really - would be good, IMHO.

HOWEVER, the work that would involve developing such mechanics on this game, are the key point here. How much work time is involved in that?
Cause if it's A L-O-T, then I rather have HL invest that L-O-T of time in other contents, such as wintermute, and new map areas.

[odizzido]

The other thing to consider is HL seems to already invest time into fixing all the places people get stuck. Having it just not be a problem anymore would save that time. Next time I fall through the floor into a bathtub I could just step out of it like a normal human being too which would be nice.

[oplli]

you can't jump with 10kg of winter clothes plus 30kg of gear in a pack. plus the snow that can block you. i say no to jumping

[OdaSamurai]

Maybe you can't, but you sure can vault over a fence, or over a tree trunk

No to JUMPING, yes.

3 hours ago, oplli said:

you can't jump with 10kg of winter clothes plus 30kg of gear in a pack. plus the snow that can block you. i say no to jumping

 

[UTC-10]

I have thought that one should be able to walk up to an obstacle like a guard rail and get over it then continue on one's way but that would be a deliberate action and situational.  I would expect that one would not be able to run "through" it i.e. run up to it, put ones hands on the obstacle, then vault over it (which would be rather close to "jump" over it) and then continue running.  

It is annoying that I cannot make my way slowly right over a guard rail, for example, but maybe the details in implementation might be a bit too hard to differentiate between actions.  Certainly the devs would be aware of the problems they make for themselves if they have a half-way "jump" like action introduced to the game even if it was for limited situational conditions. 

[odizzido]

18 hours ago, oplli said:

you can't jump with 10kg of winter clothes plus 30kg of gear in a pack. plus the snow that can block you. i say no to jumping

I don't think this is fair. Weights in TLD are ballooned well beyond reason so you have to cut that at least in half. It would be 10-15kg of gear and maybe 3-5kg of clothing.

Either that or we have to account for our character's herculean strength and stamina. 

[ajb1978]

2 hours ago, odizzido said:

I don't think this is fair. Weights in TLD are ballooned well beyond reason so you have to cut that at least in half. It would be 10-15kg of gear and maybe 3-5kg of clothing.

Unless you run around in just jeans and a t-shirt, the weight of clothing is fairly accurate.  As a test I weighed a bunch of items of clothing I own in real life on a lab scale.

Wool socks: 0.1kg
Ski Gloves: 0.2kg
Work boots: 2kg
Cargo Pants: 0.75kg
Ear wrap: 0.1kg
Hoodie: 0.75kg
Long underwear: 0.2kg
Bomber jacket: 3kg

So at these real-world weights, assuming I doubled up pants, socks, shirt, underwear, coat, and ear wraps, it comes to 12kg for a full set.  

[odizzido]

Interesting. I just did a couple. My super warm hat is 106g, my socks(between sports/wool) are 50g, and my hoodie is 528g

 

Your bomber jacket is really heavy. I will have to check how much mine is sometime.

 

Anyways my hoodie is over double the weight of TLD one(and almost certainly warmer, how is a hoodie the same warmth as a t-shirt??) The socks are off by more than 3X and the hat is at least 2.5X off(mine is triple layered, I assume TLD ones aren't since there is no mention of it).

 

So yeah, just from my minor testing weights are off by over probably 150%. Maybe some are accurate, but the ones I just checked are way off.

Edited October 18, 2020 by odizzido

[Screenshot Pilgrim]

Just for comparison, I'll mention the maps in TheHunter: Call of the Wild, which are huge and look pretty good, but where you can stroll through underbrush, fallen trees and branches at will; to the point where it also kind of kills the feeling of being out in the woods sometimes.  For hunting, that stuff will blocks sight lines, so it's not all useless visuals, but it has no substance and can break emersion when moving through it.

That said, I would welcome OP's suggestion for 'small jump' or 'vault' or 'step up' or 'climb' or whatever it would be called.   My weirdo mind tends to make up little stories to explain away some of the snags (there's a nasty old nail sticking out of that), so I'm not necessarily all that bothered by them (I want it to be a struggle to navigate the island), but the suggested change makes sense all the same.  The snags could still be there, but if you have the travel experience, you'll know just when to hit the key.

[OdaSamurai]

On 10/18/2020 at 3:34 AM, UTC-10 said:

I have thought that one should be able to walk up to an obstacle like a guard rail and get over it then continue on one's way but that would be a deliberate action and situational.

That's exactly what I think.

You should not rely on something like that on a emergency, that's not the use. Should be an action like opening a door, getting in a car, or forcing a locker door, or climbing a wall with roots in it.

Stop in front of it, aim at it, hold the mouse button, see the animation, proceed.

[Willbonney]

I'm trying to think on the last time I've ever jumped.  Hmm, bootcamp when I was 18 maybe?  So 22 years ago.  Doesn't seem practical to me or really that necessary. With 35, 40kg of gear or more, yeah, I'd never.  On snow and/or ice, you're kinda asking for a fall.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Willbonney
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