Malnutrition idea 2 - introduction of PCFV


sonics01

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Very rough conceptual idea. To begin with, I need to clear about this. I'm OK with criticism about my idea or any opposition and suggestions from a different direction and different points of view and I welcome them. But, anyone who wants to prohibit/discourage/ruin the brainstorming attempts, imagination, and open discussion to progressive/imaginative/conceptual ideas using lie which is unrelated to the topic and the situation of TLD (such as 200cal per day for 6 months without any adverse effect) must not reply. 


The post is a brainstorming attempt to clarify the idea of introducing PCFV consumption to the TLD. This idea has the potential of leading this game to be further challenging, realistic, but more balanced in some sense. But some sort of simplification should be also followed. 
 

1. The basic idea is: Replace the current hunger mechanism to consider 4 more stats: Protein, Carbohydrate, Fat, and Vitamin/Mineral. There are a lot more details about nutrition but too much detail will be a burden to the scripting and may burden the source code and engine, so just 4 should be fine. Calorie as a unit will be still used, but the "calorie limit" will be applied for each stats differently. 

2. Protein and Fat are enough already. Survivors in TLD consume cooked meat every day. 

3. For Vitamin/Minerals: Describing all Vitamins like A, B, C, D... would be too much, so just use one term "Vitamin/Mineral". Fish and being outside in sunny days could provide some. Rosehip tea will provide a lot, but rosehip is a limited resource. Animal blood is a source of vitamin and mineral, but I guess the description of animal blood while harvesting would be a burden. So, it might be OK to assume the animal blood is automatically consumed every time when the player harvests the game, or when the player cooks the raw meat. (But it would be great if animal blood is introduced as a harvestable resource from animals as well) 

4. As an additional Vitamin source, pine-needle tea would be a good one. For this, a pine needle should be introduced as a resource that can be respawned, or as a finite resource but with a huge amount. There are a lot of conifer trees in Canada and in TLD. 

5. Carbohydrates can be an issue, there are not many sources of carbohydrates in TLD. In reality, 
https://www.freezeframe.ac.uk/resources/nutrition/4 

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Today we know a person taking part in a polar expedition needs between 4000 and 6000 calories per day. These calories should come from a balanced diet of 20-25% protein, 25-30% fat and 50% carbohydrates (Gunn 1988) 

Carbohydrates supply is really important. 
In a higher difficulty setting, factory-foods will be decayed too fast and cattails will be consumed too fast. In this case, the introduction of new foods/resources would be essential. There are good sources to read:  
https://www.superprepper.com/foraging-for-food-in-a-winter-survival-situation/
https://www.offthegridnews.com/extreme-survival/8-winter-foraging-foods/
It wouldn't need to introduce them all, but items like pine cone nuts, milkweed, watercress, acorns, and edible berry/nut (growing in winter) would be good ones for carbohydrates. In addition, as a coastline-only-item, seaweeds and mussels would be a good source of protein and carbohydrates. 
Items like pine cone nuts would be a very affluent limited resource or should be respawned. It might be good to introduce mussel and seaweed as a beachcombing item with a good respawn chance. 

6. Every 4 nutritions should have their own malnutrition afflictions and penalties. There are different types of vitamin deficiency diseases based on different types of vitamins. I think it would be better to introduce 4 afflictions, but appear only 1 at random. Because this idea does not distinguish different types of vitamins. (But if different vitamins are described then deficiency should be described) 
For the description of lack of PCF, I don't think I need to explain them all in here. 
For the description of malnutrition, I think stacking-up system described in

this post is good. It should be slow and gradual at the beginning, but symptoms should be worsened as the deficiency value stacks up. 

7. This idea will make players cook more frequently. To solve this issue, hand drill and bow drill should be introduced as well. Because, in higher difficulty, the match will run out faster than "vanilla" to cook frequently. Ideas regarding hand drill and bow drill have been suggested numerous times in this forum so I think I don't need to explain. 

8. Map-specific resources would be good to be introduced, such as specific mussels and seaweeds only available in Bleak Inlet, specific edible berry only available in the deep valley inside HRV, bird eggs only available at the top of TWM peak. They might be OK to be respawned but with very long frequency. This will make more incentive for players to travel around + high risk / high return (good resources should be only available in toughest regions) + Very great source of various nutritions for few weeks of time. 

9. "Wellfed" should stay with this system. 

10. Potentially, idea like PCFV nutrition can be connected to "real cooking" and "mood/sanity/morale" but that is totally different story. 

This idea requires more harvestable resources, more foods, and additional ways to make fire without lighter or match. So I don't think this is an easy and simple idea. But this system will bring following things:  
A. Increase difficulty and realism factor (not to the point of fully realistic but in the direction of realism) 
B. Make players be more careful about their diet and resource management in this game. 
C. Make players travel more to tough regions to find and gather the precious/rare resources. 
D. No more starvation/hibernation strategy. If you want to not only survive but also prosper, you need to eat properly. 


I don't think such contents will be provided from HL, their hands are tied with so many events, like optimization/resource issue with Unity, and Coronavirus... If I learn C# I wish to try something like this myself. 

Edited by sonics01
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Since OP already linked to another thread where I explain my point of view in great detail... I don't feel the need to echo it all on this thread again (especially so soon after that conversation :D)

However, I will weigh in on it (in summary at least):

I think the systems and mechanics we already have work fine.  I don't see a need for any of this, especially considering how much work the Hinterland team would need to do to implement all this.

I don't see a need for Hinterland to invest all the time, money, and resources into over hauling mechanics (that I think) work just fine.  I especially don't see a need to make systems overly complicated, convoluted, or "micro-managey."  It's a game after all, and I don't think a game needs to be hyper-realistic.  I think the mechanics just need to do what the designers set out for them to do.


:coffee::fire:
There are also some suppositions here that aren't entirely biologically accurate... which seems problematic since the basis of the thread seemed to be a desire for the game to be more "realistic."

In the end I think Raph said it very well in one of the previous Milton Mailbag Dispatch threads:

Quote

Wait wait -- please don't use "realism" as an argument for or against a game mechanic (or any tuning around it).  [text removed for brevity]  We don't design for realism, and we don't use it as a metric to determine how something should or should not work in the game...

Edited by ManicManiac
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So vitamins and minerals can mostly be gotten from animal sources if you eat the organs which I assume we do. I am not sure, but the birch bark tea we have may also be a good enough source of vitamin C. This leaves K and potassium as the bigger holes, both of which you can get from seaweed. I feel like malnutrition could be simplified into eating both animals and seaweed. Scurvy could be a thing though, and cured with birchbark tea. I feel like the idea of debuff stacking could work well with scurvy. lvl 1 you are more tired, lvl 2 you don't heal as fast, and lvl 3 you don't heal at all.

When I look at adding and requiring seaweed, you would end up making coastal regions the place to be since they would have everything you need. I liked the idea of map specific resources, perhaps something that is inland that will encourage movement between the sea and more inland locations. Having resource gathering excursions sounds like it could help the late game tedium I end up getting.

 

As to getting carbs, I know people who pretty much don't eat them and haven't for a few years. They're eating almost all fat and protein, heavier on the fat side. Now I don't know what the long term effects of doing this will be....I am not sure anyone does yet, but in the time scales of TLD this wouldn't be an issue IMO. I don't think requiring carbs as the largest part of your diet is something I am a fan of. I am also not a fan of the idea of eggs since it would really not be the season for finding those. I think that finding alternatives to these as map specific resources would better for me.

 

 

Anyways if hinterland looked at adding all of this as a custom game setting(s) that we can play around with and work on I think that would be cool. Some people don't want this in the game so just leave it out of the standard settings so just leave it out of those so they don't complain.

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On 8/21/2020 at 1:56 PM, ManicManiac said:

I don't see a need for Hinterland to invest all the time, money, and resources into over hauling mechanics (that I think) work just fine.  I especially don't see a need to make systems overly complicated, convoluted, or "micro-managey."  It's a game after all, and I don't think a game needs to be hyper-realistic.  I think the mechanics just need to do what the designers set out for them to do.

 

 

On 8/21/2020 at 1:43 AM, sonics01 said:

I don't think such contents will be provided from HL, their hands are tied with so many events, like optimization/resource issue with Unity, and Coronavirus...

 

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On 8/21/2020 at 3:56 PM, odizzido said:

I am not sure, but the birch bark tea we have may also be a good enough source of vitamin C.

Thanks to point about that, I missed the BB tea. BB is respawning resource, and one of the reason why I love Ravine. 

On 8/21/2020 at 3:56 PM, odizzido said:

As to getting carbs, I know people who pretty much don't eat them and haven't for a few years. They're eating almost all fat and protein, heavier on the fat side.

I'm sure these people you know is consuming carbohydrates in some way, anyway anyhow. It is impossible to keep diet without CHs at all. Totally neglecting CH from one's diet will bring several side effects: 

https://www.livescience.com/51976-carbohydrates.html#:~:text=Carbohydrate deficiency&text=Without sufficient fuel%2C the body,blood sugar%2C is called hypoglycemia.

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If the body has insufficient carbohydrate intake or stores, it will consume protein for fuel. This is problematic because the body needs protein to make muscles. Using protein for fuel instead of carbohydrates also puts stress on the kidneys, leading to the passage of painful byproducts in the urine, according to the University of Cincinnati.

As far as I know, because of that reason, the major symptom of CH deficiency is losing muscles. Check these references too 

http://charm.cs.uiuc.edu/users/jyelon/lowcarb.med/topic2.html

There are some ways to keep muscle mass despite of "low-carb" diet (not "no-carb" diet) But I'm not sure if the characters in TLD can use such methods... So I will stick to the reference of Gunn 1988. 

Anyway, in general, I think if there are any combinations of mods or a single big mod which could make TLD much harder, ( something like TLD version of Stalker's Anomalie or Misery mods, oh I can't wait for these mods for Stalker 2 BTW)  I guess contents like PCFV with nutrition deficiency could help that. I'm sure HL will not make their game in that way, I'm sure such attempts would only possible via modding. 

Edited by sonics01
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