suggestion Let's improve the Rifle

[NardoLoopa]

3 hours ago, manni.manni said:

Which is also why I wished the rifle could be a more competent option vs the bow. I want to be have a hard time choosing what to bring outside - the bow or the rifle? I want to regret not bringing the rifle. But I never do. Yet I always regret not bringing the bow.

The general impression I got when I played TLD was that the rifle was the natural draw of the inexperienced LongDarker.  I mean, who in real life would choose a bow for survival over a rifle in their first 10 days of falling out of a plane into the Canadian tundra?  The mechanics to use is are pretty simple.  But it's heavy.  And ammunition is limited.  But it's immediately effective without startup costs.  So I think you're meant to cling to this technological solution to your wolf problem but then realize that it isn't viable in the long term.  Instead, developing the skill, and learning to build a bow and arrows, is where the game leads you.  It is the end-game weapon.  Over and over the game teaches you that player-skill and renewable resources are the key to survival.  I think the rifle is just there to help make that point.

I'm not able to fit the revolver into the above theory.  As mentioned, I don't like it because it's OP and skill-less to use.  But I also do not like it because it disrupts the narrative above.  I don't think you can beach-comb lead, but even without this the horizon on bullet exhaustion is beyond what most people consider a normal long game.

So, I like your ideas about adding new mechanics to the rifle to add a bit of interactive realism.  But I'd hope it would never come close to the bow because it would violate what I interpret as the spirit of the game.  (IMHO).  One of the great pleasures I take in this game is because of the strong narrative push to re-think how we play video games (running is punished, can't hop, pack-ratting is deadly, no goal other than to survive, technology is not better, etc).

One of the mechanics I'd like to see removed from the rifle is Quick Scoping.  If you have the object-close targeting dot, you can Quick Scope because the first position of the rifle is dead on target before it starts the swaying mechanic.  So, no matter how tired, if you flick-fire, you'll always be deadly accurate.  I'd like to see the initial ADS position as somewhere along the sway trajectory loop to eliminate this exploit.

 

[Screenshot Pilgrim]

@manni.manni

So am I supposed to have felt someone replied condescendingly or do you feel that way?  🤷🏼‍♂️😄

I’m afraid I don’t see it.  On a forum with so many possibilities for ages,  backgrounds, play styles, reasons for playing, etc, etc...there’s bound to be some of that I guess, but I honestly don’t really care. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Screenshot Pilgrim

[stirfoo]

I'm in the bow camp now. I have 3 rifles and probably 4 or 5 pistols scattered about. Once I figured out how to forge arrow heads I left them behind.  I found out a bear can be taken down with one shot. I was on a rock above and behind a bear passing by. One shot.

[manni.manni]

@NardoLoopa

4 hours ago, NardoLoopa said:

So I think you're meant to cling to this technological solution to your wolf problem but then realize that it isn't viable in the long term.  Instead, developing the skill, and learning to build a bow and arrows, is where the game leads you.  It is the end-game weapon.  Over and over the game teaches you that player-skill and renewable resources are the key to survival.  I think the rifle is just there to help make that point.

You've just proven my point in the original post - that the rifle is nothing but a steppingstone. Which in terms of game design, is cool. If Hinterland intended the rifle to be a like a tier 2 weapon and the bow a tier 3 weapon, that's their decision - it is their game after all.

Also I agree with everything you said btw, I'm just saying you've proven my point.

I just feel like the rifle should be a viable late game option, y'know what I mean? That I'm not just meant to leave it behind and just manufacture 50 bows. I mean the current state of the rifle (and even as you said), the game wants us to leave the rifle behind and go for the bow. Thus, everyone should be bow-gang. I just wanted an even playing field between the two.

[manni.manni]

@stirfoo Ayy bow-gang! Yeah, you should try it with moose. Get them to charge and then headshot them in the last second. Most satisfying way to kill moose imho

[manni.manni]

@Screenshot Pilgrim 

On 7/20/2020 at 9:33 AM, Screenshot Pilgrim said:

 

That's interesting.  Instead of a hold breath mechanic, a player would have to use audio clues to fire during a pause, and breathing could become more rhythmic with higher skill levels...if it were decided to implement such a thing at all.   Wait, is this already a game mechanic? -- You know what, I don't want to know.  😄

 

Yeah idk man, because your reply isn't condescending at all lmao how about replying without needing to be condescending? This ain't twitter. We can have a civil convo. You could have just laid out your points but you had to go down the condescending route. I mean you have 200+ rep so I guess talking that way is not a bad thing in this site.
Also, you honestly really don't care, huh? I mean you care enough to reply, to double down on your reply, and also to edit your reply. Hmmmmmm... algood though, at least I know I should just ignore you and give no merit to whatever you have to say.

[Screenshot Pilgrim]

Well, ManicManiac and piddy3825 didn't say anything about it being condescending.  I quoted both of them in the post you just quoted.  Sure, the last part was an attempt at humor to indicate what I said before about not personally being in the deep about game mechanics.  Sorry for any confusion there.  Also, edits are often because I forgot to include something. In this case, I forgot to put @manni.manni at the beginning.   

As far as my little green number goes, I post screenshots in the fan art section pretty regularly, and some of the better ones will get greens and blues.  So even though it's not just because I'm such a swell guy (another joke there), I haven't been contacted by Admin about bad behavior.  If I was contacted about it, I would care about that.  The "I don't really care." in my last post was referring to condescension directed towards me.  

I hope to have cleared up anything that would cause animosity.

[manni.manni]

@jeffpeng

On 7/22/2020 at 2:56 PM, jeffpeng said:

Well, I guess I bore people with my constant "gameplay over realism" palaver. But, yet, here I go again 😄

Basically I must side with @ManicManiac. Maybe not for all the same reasons, but mostly to the same effect. If you actually learn to handle the rifle well it is a very, very effective weapon, especially since you can crouch-shoot from the beginning of the game. That alone makes it far superior to the bow early on as an offensive weapon, but it also has a much farther effective range (unless you are an arc-wizard), and also near-instant hit detection, so you can hit a moving target much more reliably, especially if it is moving perpendicular to you. With the long aiming windup it is rather ineffective as a defensive weapon, but we have other options for that (and that is even realistic). I guess what I am trying to say: even if not everything reflects realism perfectly well, the efficiency and accuracy of the rifle is fine as it is in my opinion from a gameplay perspective.
What I do agree upon is that the rifle skill actually doesn't provide enough meaning. However I'm unclear how to fix this without either adding too much power to the rifle with high levels or reducing the rifle's power too much with lower levels. The one thing I can see working would be to add a sniping-stance at level 5, in which the player actually lies down flat (which takes some time to do and also to stand back up) which allows to aim without aiming fatigue and also reduces sway once the player has "eased into" the position, as a real marksman would. This would further emphasize the role of the rifle as an offensive hunting tool, and provide significant reward for actually getting to level 5.

1. "gameplay over realism" - If you reread the original post, you'll see no mention from me asking for realism. I'm very careful with my choice of words. I think you'd find we're actually on the same side. Also, from here on, just assume that none of my suggestions are made on the basis of wanting realism in the game.

2. I disagree. Early game, the bow is already op. When I play seriously, I run around - ignoring everything - to get a hatchet and rush to known bow, maple, and birch sapling spawn points. I actually see no viability with the rifle, early or late. I mostly use the rifle when I'm having fun (i.e. shooting the shit out of a bear/moose to see how much bullets I can waste, triggering wolf packs and quickscoping them, etc.)
I'm no arc wizard but I don't really see the point in long range shots with the bow when I can just trigger predators (including the moose) and put an arrow between their eyes in the last second - one shot kill'ing them (something I shouldn't be able to do IRL - even with a gun, but alas, the game allows me to do it, and as much as I love it, it makes abandoning the rifle even easier).

3. If the rifle suits you, that's fine! I'm not here to change your mind! I just have suggestions and I'm aware that this forum is for open discussion anyway. Again, I never asked for realism - I asked for mechanics that would make the rifle a more viable option vs the bow, which it currently isn't IMHO, which I also think is bad. To use the rifle later on is a handicap. Compared to the bow, it weighs too much and sways too much, and they both have the same one-shot potential. So I see no reason to use the rifle when I can get a lightweight one-shot killer.

4. I like your idea with the sniping stance but isn't that "realism over gameplay"? Either way, would be cool for the game. Also, yes this would make it a nice hunting tool but the fact that you have to carry the weight of the meat/hide + the rifle, and you can't/it's difficult to use it defensively, so you'll have to carry the extra weight of your sidearm (bow/revolver). If I were in a situation where I've just killed a moose, I would rather have 20kgs of meat, the 5kg hide, the 0.5kg of the bow, and the 0.10kg of the flare (if I'm not in the mood to kill a bear). This allows me to still move in a reasonable pace and be able to defend myself from wolf packs. Which IMHO is better than carrying 10-15kgs of meat, 5kg hide, 4kg rifle, and the extra weight of my anti-wolf/bear items (bow/revolver/stones/flares/etc) - not to mention the return trip(s).

5.  I wholeheartedly agree with your perspective on the rifle skill. The words you used were the words I wish I thought of and wrote on my original post. They need to make it more dynamic or have tangible effects other than packing more of a punch. A steadier aim, sleight of hand, something better than what I can think of.