suggestion Let's improve the Rifle

[manni.manni]

Hello everyone! This is my first forum submission and I hope you enjoy reading this! However, this might be too long so if you're in a TL:DR mood, just scroll down to the last few paragraphs.

So I've been playing The Long Dark ever since (I believe) its launch date and I have 820 hours on it (yes, I know I should have more but I take long breaks, especially if I don't like the updates or when I get bored).

However, ever since I've played TLD, I have always had a problem with the rifle. I can remember repeatedly sending feedback to Hinterland Games about suggestions to "fix" the rifle. These ranged from 'angry-man-child' rants to 'nicely-worded' suggestions. I'm sad to say but Hinterland Games are still yet to implement any of my suggestions.

For the longest time, my problem has been the rifle's sway. The rifle (in the earlier versions);

1. Never sways at 100% energy

2. Slight sway at 75%

3. Significant sway at 50%

4. Mighty sway at %40 and below

(And for the longest time, my suggestion has always been for them to implement some sort of hold breath mechanic to steady the aim)

My first solution to this issue was to always bring a ton of coffee for every task that would need me to carry the rifle (i.e. exploring or hunting). My second solution was to get a bow.

I can remember when they introduced the "skill" system wherein you can develop skills with certain tools or tasks the more you do them. I was so excited about this that I did not bother reading anything about the update and wanted to see for myself what awaited me once I mastered the rifle skill.

ALSO, this update gave the rifle a strong sway, no matter how much energy you have - which also gets worse and worse the more tired you are.

After about 50+ bullets or so (this is hyperbole - I don't accurately know how many shots it takes to master), I finally mastered the rifle skill...only to be disappointed to know that all it does is increase the critical hit chance and the damage, reduce per use condition, increase accuracy range (which, imo, is irrelevant), and +5 condition per repair.

I find it weird that rifle mastery in the game does not involve the player learning how to hold their breath to steady their aim, nor does it grant the ability to cock the bolt faster than you could at novice level.

The only way I've ever used rifles is to line up my shot using right click, then do a quick-scope. This is because the aim is steady for the first half-second of right clicking.

Ever since I had this problem, I only ever saw the rifle as a stepping stone between having no weapons and having the bow - the most OP weapon in the game.

Then the revolver came along...which made the rifle completely obsolete. My only reasons to use the rifle these days is to:

1. Get the rifle mastery skill (for fun - gives me something to do)

2. Kill bears for sport - I usually ignore or walk around them coz imho, bear hide is useless

3. Kill moose for sport. If I wanted moose for meat, I would use the bow coz for some reason, you can one-shot-kill them with an arrow between their eyes

The revolver is superior to the rifle in every way. It's efficient, lightweight, has a fast-firing rate, and reliable. Missing rifle shots feels like my entire economy just crashed, whereas missing revolver shots feel normal - as if its supposed to happen.

The revolver has no sway, so when I miss shots, I feel personally responsible. This is a good thing because I cannot cry "design flaw". I see every shot I miss as a need to improve. It's also more economic.

The introduction of bullet forging made the revolver a thousand times better but it did not help the rifle in any way. Crafting 500 revolver ammo made me invincible from wolves and timber wolves. Crafting even 50 rifle bullets is only a waste of resources and literally handicaps me, hindering me from realising my "true revolver potential".

I am passionate about this subject because I love the rifle so much and I love The Long Dark. I feel that in a survival scenario, having a rifle should be and must be one of the most game-changing experience of survival. Having a rifle in the wild could mean life over death, food or starvation, eat or be eaten.

This is one of my reasons for taking breaks from the game. Every update, I check the rifle. Every time I do, I'm disappointed. My favourite weapon is useless and a burden to use.

I have ideas on how to improve it though:

1. Introduce a hold breath mechanic to steady the aim - could be introduced from novice level or maybe unlocked after reaching level 2 or level 3. Maybe even the ability to hold the breath longer as skill level increases. The length of time the player can hold their breath could be related to the player's current energy level and/or their current stamina (i.e. shorter breath after a sprint).

2. Faster bolt action as skill level increases - mastering the rifle should be related to the rifle's key aspects. A faster bolt action would really feel like a mastery of the rifle.

3. Remove the damage increase as skill levels up. Either increase rifle damage outright or just leave it as it is - I'm honestly quite satisfied with its "normal" damage.

4. A very tight sway and steadier aim when crouched. Common sense on this one.

The introduction of these mechanics would make the rifle more dynamic and would make it a contender versus the revolver and the bow. Because as of now, there is no contest. The rifle is a hindrance - a handicap. This would make it less of a stepping stone and more of a game play definer. Do you want to be a silent and lightweight hunter with a bow? Or do you want to be a heavyweight with power and accuracy?

If you're still reading at this point, I hope you enjoyed the read. Whether you agree or disagree, or better yet, have a better suggestion, please do let me know! Either way, I hope the game developers listen to this or considers these ideas.

[NardoLoopa]

About the only thing I'd really like to see addressed is the weird motion of transitioning to aim-down-sight (ADS).  The pistol is particularly horrible, but the rifle isn't that great either.

As for hold-breath: yes, this would be appreciated.  However, I think it should just reduce the sway you're already experiencing via fatigue, not eliminate it.  On that note, I do think it's a bit silly that you can fire a rifle with any accuracy when you are effectively shivering uncontrollably (zero heat).  But I understand if that's a game mechanic choice.

Aim while crouched, yes.  Again, same as hold-breath: further reduce.

Faster bolt action?  Yes.  I would go so far as to think that with zero skill the reload time could be longer with a chance to fumble to where you need to pick the cartridge off the ground.

I personally don't like the pistol very much: weird ADS and far too effective.  The rifle had some very nice limitations for game play.  Generally, I choose not to carry a pistol because I feel it is OP.

[piddy3825]

whew...

There's been quite a few improvements to the rifle since the rifle was first introduced to be fair.  But you're right in that the rifle doesn't perform as you'd think a rifle should, especially if you have any real world firearm knowledge or shooting experience.   That's probably why I prefer the bow over the rifle 95% of the time.  For me, I just wish I could get to crouch while firing the bow lot sooner than having to work my way up to level 5  especially considering  that I can kneel to shoot the rifle immediately after finding it.  

on the other hand, when I want to hunt for sport in the game, I use the pistol and hunt rabbits...

[Screenshot Pilgrim]

@manni.manni  Your suggestions for improvement are well thought out.  I also like the rifle a great deal even though it's not the best option sometimes (or ever, depending on who you ask).

Once, in a custom settings game with low resources (including low outside containers chance), and no revolvers, I found only 2 rifles and about 75 rounds.  I looked almost everywhere.  I had enough cleaning kits to keep it in shape, but it was before Bleak Inlet arrived, so no ammo crafting.  The rifle became a precious and rarely used asset.  Mainly just for bear and moose (once for a deer when starvation was pretty bad).  With these I took long distance shots and definitely missed a few.  When I wounded a bear, I waited for it to die rather than finish it off with more rounds.  Scouting around for the carcass later, often in fog or heavy snow, was fun in itself.  I felt like my guy was familiar enough to use a rifle to survive, but by no means an expert.  Even if I had reached level 5 (I didn't), I would have been out of ammo or close to it.  Also, I remember it being cold enough that even with good clothes, warmth was almost always diminishing, and so shooting was affected.

In this scenario, I think the rifle fit the game well.  I'm not a player who delves too deep into game mechanic details etc.  My instincts are to let it be and try to adapt the best I can, however, I have often wished I could rest the rifle on a fallen log to steady it.  This would be a change that would make sense and add the fun of finding good hunting spots where it could be utilized.

I also play a bit of 'The Hunter-Call of the Wild' which has the hold breath mechanic.  It's definitely a nice feature, so I'd be glad to have it for The Long Dark as well.

[ManicManiac]

On 7/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, manni.manni said:

Hello everyone! This is my first forum submission

Welcome to the wilderness.
I would recommend using the search feature.

This kind of thing has been brought up many times in previous threads, and there has been a lot of good conversation on that topic.

Since I've mentioned it more than a few times before I will just echo what I've said previously on the subject.  After that I will address some of your specific points as well (because I really don't agree with most of them).  Please don't take it personally, I'm not attacking you personally... I just don't agree with your point of view and I'll do my best to explain why.

First, what I've mentioned before:

On 7/31/2019 at 11:32 PM, ManicManiac said:

After hotfixes and so on, if you employ good marksmanship basics you should be in good shape.  Specifically I mean good sight alignment & sight picture.  As for comparing it to other games... most games (shooters especially - ironically) are very far from accurate when it comes to actual marksmanship, and we should be grateful for that.

Even in the long dark all we really have to worry about is sight alignment and sight picture.  We don't have to worry about windage or elevation calculations.  As such, we don't have to worry about bullet drop or half value/full value winds.  We only see a tiny suggestion of the effects of breath control and trigger control only when we are freezing or fatigued.   

I'm sure it's frustrating, but hang in there and keep practicing.    The rifle is a very effective tool, and I've actually had more success with it after the aiming revamp than I did before it was updated.

On 10/28/2019 at 12:54 AM, ManicManiac said:

Also I think more people should understand and accept that it's a video game and doesn't have to reflect "reality."  In fact we should be grateful that it doesn't... for example if the shooting mechanics were 100% mapped to reality... most of us would probably not be able to hit the broadside of a barn from any significant distance.  Thankfully we don't have to worry about windage, elevation, full or half value winds, bullet drop, the Coriolis Effect... I mean the list goes on and on. 

On to some of the things you mentioned:

On 7/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, manni.manni said:

However, ever since I've played TLD, I have always had a problem with the rifle. I can remember repeatedly sending feedback to Hinterland Games about suggestions to "fix" the rifle. These ranged from 'angry-man-child' rants to 'nicely-worded' suggestions. I'm sad to say but Hinterland Games are still yet to implement any of my suggestions.

I don't think Hinterland is out to tailor their game just for one type of individual.  I think Hinterland should make the game they want, and stay true to the vision that they have for their game.  So far, I think Hinterland has done just that, and I really respect them for it.
 

On 7/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, manni.manni said:

(And for the longest time, my suggestion has always been for them to implement some sort of hold breath mechanic to steady the aim)

Most real skilled marksmen would say not to hold one's breath... but instead fire at one of the two natural respiratory pauses.  Holding one's breath will actually make the shakes worse.  (before folks get all huffy... I've had extensive rifle marksmanship training and I've had the benefit of working with and being taught by some truly talented marksmen)
 

On 7/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, manni.manni said:

For the longest time, my problem has been the rifle's sway.

I think this is an odd statement to make.  Both Standing and Kneeling firing positions (the only ones we have in this game) are not very stable compared to the Sitting or Prone positions... which means barrel sway is nearly always a factor.  What you seem to be complaining about, I think is a very reasonable thing to learn how to compensate for.  It still only requires the most basic marksmanship principals for this to not be an issue... and I think those things are very simple to learn organically.
 

On 7/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, manni.manni said:

After about 50+ bullets or so (this is hyperbole - I don't accurately know how many shots it takes to master), I finally mastered the rifle skill...only to be disappointed to know that all it does is increase the critical hit chance and the damage, reduce per use condition, increase accuracy range (which, imo, is irrelevant), and +5 condition per repair.

I think this game, to some degree, depends on player skill and doesn't flip the "easy mode" switch just because a player reads some books; and I think that's a good thing.  I would be disappointed if that where not the case.  I think the advantages we get from leveling the skill tree are still fairly significant, but doesn't take the place of a need for the player to demonstrate a little skill of their own.
 

On 7/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, manni.manni said:

I find it weird that rifle mastery in the game does not involve the player learning how to hold their breath to steady their aim

I think because again... this is not encouraged by folks with good marksmanship experience.
 

On 7/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, manni.manni said:

Ever since I had this problem, I only ever saw the rifle as a stepping stone between having no weapons and having the bow - the most OP weapon in the game.

I disagree, I think all of the weapons are all balanced pretty well against one another.  I think each has advantages and disadvantages, and I'm at a loss to understand how folks can't see that.

 

On 7/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, manni.manni said:

nor does it grant the ability to cock the bolt faster than you could at novice level.

I think if players apply a little skill, and make well aimed shots... there is no need to "jerk the bolt."

 

On 7/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, manni.manni said:

Then the revolver came along...which made the rifle completely obsolete.

I disagree...  While I can respect that you personally feel with way, I don't think your assertion is objectively true.  The revolver is the weapon I use the least.  I use stones to drive off wolves before I'd waste revolver rounds.  When I want to hunt, it's either the rifle or the bow for me. 
 

On 7/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, manni.manni said:

so when I miss shots, I feel personally responsible

I think the player should  feel personally responsible for any  missed shots anyway.
We only miss when we fail to practice basic marksmanship principles.
I think every shot we miss in the game with any weapon means the player needs to personally improve.  I love that this game isn't afraid to challenge the player, instead of just giving folks the usual power fantasy.


As for your list:

1. I've already discussed the holding your breath thing... I think it's silly and I'm glad it's not in this game, (from my life experience) it's not really a good marksmanship technique anyways.

2. Racking the bolt quickly doesn't indicate one's mastery of marksmanship...  The old saying many of the instructors gave us was "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast."  Folks that rush and try to be quick just end up fumbling and missing easy shots because they aren't taking their time to make well aimed shots.  My point is, racking a round quickly is not necessarily and indication that a person is an expert shooter.    Sure some trick-shot performers,  and match shooters focus on being quick... but folks trying to stay alive are generally not so interested with how fast they can fire... but how accurate each valuable shot is.

3. This is the one thing you've mentioned that I could honestly say I could agree with.   ...However, I'm fine with the mechanics the way they are.

4: umm, we already have tighter sway and steadier aim when crouched...  Making it easier would just take more away from the challenge inherent with having to apply a little player skill.  Folks complain about wanting the game to challenging, but when they also complain and want to make things easier... I have to point out that those are two incongruous ideas.

I appreciate how much thought you game in trying to articulate your opinions, and I respect your point of view.  I just don't agree with it.  I think the game is fine as is.

Also, I like that this game is challenging... and I am generally against any idea that would serve to make the game easier for the player.

Again... I mean nothing personal toward you.  I just fundamentally don't agree with your assertions.

Edited July 19, 2020 by ManicManiac

[piddy3825]

13 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Most real skilled marksmen would say not to hold one's breath... but instead fire at one of the two natural respiratory pauses.  Holding one's breath will actually make the shakes worse.  (before folks get all huffy... I've had extensive rifle marksmanship training and I've had the benefit of working with and being taught by some truly talented marksmen)

I am glad that you mentioned that.  I grew up as a military brat and one of the perks  was learning to shoot.  Fortunately with some of the most elite marksman in the world.  That being said, we were taught to breath rhythmically and  that "sway" was a natural part of the sighting process.  Biathlon was a big thing in those days as we were in snow country in the Bavarian Alps .  You can imagine how much sway there is trying to fire a rifle standing up after having just raced across 10k of mountainous terrain on cross country skis...   And then hitting a bullseye at 50m five times in a row!  

I was never that good...

[Screenshot Pilgrim]

3 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Most real skilled marksmen would say not to hold one's breath... but instead fire at one of the two natural respiratory pauses.

 

3 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

we were taught to breath rhythmically and  that "sway" was a natural part of the sighting process

That's interesting.  Instead of a hold breath mechanic, a player would have to use audio clues to fire during a pause, and breathing could become more rhythmic with higher skill levels...if it were decided to implement such a thing at all.   Wait, is this already a game mechanic? -- You know what, I don't want to know.  😄

 

[sonics01]

Interesting, similar with what I suggested weeks ago...

 

[sonics01]

4 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Most real skilled marksmen would say not to hold one's breath... but instead fire at one of the two natural respiratory pauses.  Holding one's breath will actually make the shakes worse.  (before folks get all huffy... I've had extensive rifle marksmanship training and I've had the benefit of working with and being taught by some truly talented marksmen)

I guess, he is mentioning in terms of trained breath control skill which include the 'pause' which you mentioned, not something like abrupt holding of the breath just like when we swim or dive in the water. 

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/1/8/rifle-fundamentals-breath-and-hold-control

If you are trained marksmen, then you should know, breath control, which also include intentional but natural hold of the breath, is 101 of any firearm and archery training. Some instructor calls it pause, some calls it hold. But anyway in the end the contexts are the same. Though it was quite a time ago, I still remember what I learned in army. They also taught very similar things. There is a very short moment for shooter to extremely minimize his breathing and its influence before pull the trigger. 

4 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

1. I've already discussed the holding your breath thing... I think it's silly and I'm glad it's not in this game, (from my life experience) it's not really a good marksmanship technique anyways.

Well from my experience I think breath control is OK to be introduced in here. In fact, I think it should introduced here. Characters in this game reads the book and learns and practice shooting. Breath control is usually very important part of aiming. Anyone can't miss the breath control part...  To me, breath control part should be introduced to archery as well. For the balance and realism, let the coldness influence on breath control which makes it very short or hard. Also, for the balance of the game, the breath control time should be limited or shortened than usual. 

My suggestion includes replacing of current aim stamina meter with hold-breath meter, or keep the current aim stamina intact but introduce the breath control contents. Only from high rifle level. But I also suggested other things to balance the rifle in my wish list post. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by sonics01

[ManicManiac]

@sonics01

Alright, but breath control is more about one's breathing rhythms (such as firing during the natural respiratory pause, or exerting conscious influence over one's breath rate),  Holding one's breath more of a... cessation of breathing   (that's why I thought it was worth distinguishing).

Again though... I think the rifle is already well balanced, I think the mechanics work well and do what they need to do, and I don't think the additions folks have suggested here forward would add much value to the game.  Considering the time and resources Hinterland would have to put into revamping the system again, I'd need to see a substantial value add in order for me to be in support of the idea.  In my opinion, just adding little details that only seem to serve as a way make the task easier for the player undermines the challenge that I love so much in the game.

I can appreciate your point of view... but I think the rifle and subsequent mechanics are well tuned and balanced as is.  I think that changing them would take away far more than it could ever add.

So, for me... No thank you.
I don't think there is anything that really needs "fixing."
If Hinterland  has determined that the mechanics are working as they intend... then it's (be definition) not broken. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by ManicManiac

[sonics01]

4 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

2. Racking the bolt quickly doesn't indicate one's mastery of marksmanship...  The old saying many of the instructors gave us was "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast."  Folks that rush and try to be quick just end up fumbling and missing easy shots because they aren't taking their time to make well aimed shots.  My point is, racking a round quickly is not necessarily and indication that a person is an expert shooter.    Sure some trick-shot performers,  and match shooters focus on being quick... but folks trying to stay alive are generally not so interested with how fast they can fire... but how accurate each valuable shot is.

Well, I agree the speed will influence accuracy and that is true. Anything like Mad minute will negatively influence on accuracy. In fact, there is "mad minute" tournament, but people who participates such tournament are extremely trained folks for such competition... 

However, LE rifle is known to bring very high RoF when compared to other bolt action rifles thanks to its unique bolt system. It was in Brit army training manual as well. It is 'possible' to perform such action for LE rifle. In fact, even Mauser can bring high RoF depending on level of experience and training. 

 

But it is very important "Why we need that in this game". I personally wish to see high RoF of LE rifle in this game, but that is just my wish. First, for fun, and second, because it is possible in real life, and third, maybe, who knows, high RoF might save my character from close-range-ambush from wolves. But I don't think such reasons are persuasive, it is more like "I wish to see it because it is possible in real life" hehehe. I don't think Hinterland will accept such request, but hey, it is just my wish XD. I also think Hinterland should invest their time and manpower to other mechanisms, such as breath control and prone position shooting or etc. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by sonics01

[ManicManiac]

28 minutes ago, sonics01 said:

It is 'possible' to perform such action for LE rifle.

I think that just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's a good idea when we have limited ammo and are in a survival situation...
I think that if we are trying to rapid fire a riffle, then chances are we weren't going to be surviving long anyway.

I get that people see that kind of stuff from match shooters and in the movies... but I think it would feel really silly in a game like this where I think a huge focus is on the need for careful and deliberate action.

[Addendum]
Besides, to me this kind of thing is fine in the kind of game where we basically play an action star in our own personal power fantasy, but I don't think this is that kind of game... so I'd rather not see stuff like that in it. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by ManicManiac

[sonics01]

51 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's a good idea when we have limited ammo and are in a survival situation...
I think that if we are trying to rapid fire a riffle, then chances are we weren't going to be surviving long anyway.

Yeah you are right, it will be more like ammo dump. Again, anything like "mad minute" will bring very poor accuracy, even for 'moderately trained shooter'. It is only good for suppressive fire, which really fits its purpose well in battlefield, especially in WW1 and WW2. But not in survival situation. 

However, high-RoF fire still has its own value in emergency situations. I think, such high-RoF fire can be a good option when being ambushed by wolves in very close range, and could save someone's life. Who knows?

But in the end, I also agree with you, read my later parts. I also think, investment of time and money for such things will be very low priority and it should be. I wish to see new maps and crafting more than rifle rebalance... But, if they do rifle rework/rebalance in the future, I will really appreciate that. 

55 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Considering the time and resources Hinterland would have to put into revamping the system again, I'd need to see a substantial value add in order for me to be in support of the idea.  In my opinion, just adding little details that only seem to serve as a way make the task easier for the player undermines the challenge that I love so much in the game.

I understand that. I know and we all know. It is not only the problem of Hinterland but also for many other indie game developers around the world. But that never means we cannot discuss these things at all. I'm just suggesting what I brainstorms which might (or might not) bring better experience for TLD players in the future. Who knows, maybe some creative suggestion which could help devs could comes out from these silly brainstorming results. That is why we have forum.  

Quote

Again though... I think the rifle is already well balanced, I think the mechanics work well and do what they need to do, and I don't think the additions folks have suggested here forward would add much value to the game.

For me, I'm more in "dissatisfactory region" towards rifle shooting and archery experience in TLD. Too many things are limited and details are too much simplified, we cannot use prone position for example. Aim stamina drain speed is too fast, and etc...  

 

55 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I can appreciate your point of view... but I think the rifle and subsequent mechanics are well tuned and balanced as is.  I think that changing them would take away far more than it could ever add.

So, for me... No thank you.
I don't think there is anything that really needs "fixing."
If Hinterland  has determined that the mechanics are working as they intend... then it's (be definition) not broken. 

Well, I have to disagree with you again, but we all have our opinions so I respect yours. But one thing, I think (and it is not only me who thinks like that) there a lot of things need to be fixed and improved and tailored in TLD. I really cannot agree that the current status of the game is enough and well-finished as it is. 

That is why I wish to see mod tools and more mods for TLD. There is already very great mods for TLD, but official modding tool will make every moder's life easier (but depending on modding tool quality and degree of freedom) Modding is one of the great way to flourish the game. If devs can't do these, then I wish to say, make us the playground then players will improve the game. There are a lot of great example of mod hits more than a game, Elderscroll series, and Stalker series... I really love Misery mod of Stalker series. Really well made, and it really feels like TLD + Stalker. As far as I know modding tool is in the official plan of Hinterland. So I really wish to see how much freedom they will offer to us.  

Edited July 20, 2020 by sonics01

[ManicManiac]

1 hour ago, sonics01 said:

But in the end, I also agree with you, read my later parts.

Fair enough, I may have misread...

Edited July 20, 2020 by ManicManiac

[piddy3825]

2 hours ago, Screenshot Pilgrim said:

That's interesting.  Instead of a hold breath mechanic, a player would have to use audio clues...

actually more visual but probably a combination of both all things considered.  From a visual perspective, think of it as making sideways figure 8's (basically like the infinity symbol ∞) and your aware of where the barrel is in the ark as it's weaving in and out over your target, as you breathing in and out you squeeze the trigger as the rifle barrel arks  towards/over the target.  

[PrincessAutumn]

I can agree. I'd also like to see the rifle movement while walking back the way it was originally because right now it looks like the survivor has scoliosis or ankylosing spondylitis when carrying the rifle while walking. Rifle moves back and forth in a left to right direction

No offense to anyone who has these debilitating disorders 

[Screenshot Pilgrim]

2 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

From a visual perspective, think of it as making sideways figure 8's (basically like the infinity symbol ∞) and your aware of where the barrel is in the ark as it's weaving in and out over your target, as you breathing in and out you squeeze the trigger as the rifle barrel arks  towards/over the target.  

Ah, I see.  Thanks for sharing that knowledge.   When I was a teenager (long ago),  I learned the basics of rifles from family members who hunted (we all grew up and live in Wisconsin), and had opportunities to practice shooting, but never the benefit of higher levels of marksmanship training.

[odizzido]

Our character suffers from many severe and debilitating conditions. I think it would be fun(ny) to have a mod where you can select your status effects.

1) The disease where you grow bone all through your body(horrible). Effect: cannot look out the back window of a car

2) Raging diarrhea. Effect: Cannot sleep for more then 12 hrs without dying of thirst

3) Fused legs with hooves. Effect: Cannot jump, however you gain the abilities of a mountain goat.

4) rifle phobia. Effect: cannot hold the rifle out for more than a few seconds

[Guest jeffpeng]

Well, I guess I bore people with my constant "gameplay over realism" palaver. But, yet, here I go again 😄

Basically I must side with @ManicManiac. Maybe not for all the same reasons, but mostly to the same effect. If you actually learn to handle the rifle well it is a very, very effective weapon, especially since you can crouch-shoot from the beginning of the game. That alone makes it far superior to the bow early on as an offensive weapon, but it also has a much farther effective range (unless you are an arc-wizard), and also near-instant hit detection, so you can hit a moving target much more reliably, especially if it is moving perpendicular to you. With the long aiming windup it is rather ineffective as a defensive weapon, but we have other options for that (and that is even realistic). I guess what I am trying to say: even if not everything reflects realism perfectly well, the efficiency and accuracy of the rifle is fine as it is in my opinion from a gameplay perspective.

What I do agree upon is that the rifle skill actually doesn't provide enough meaning. However I'm unclear how to fix this without either adding too much power to the rifle with high levels or reducing the rifle's power too much with lower levels. The one thing I can see working would be to add a sniping-stance at level 5, in which the player actually lies down flat (which takes some time to do and also to stand back up) which allows to aim without aiming fatigue and also reduces sway once the player has "eased into" the position, as a real marksman would. This would further emphasize the role of the rifle as an offensive hunting tool, and provide significant reward for actually getting to level 5.

Other than that ... no, the rifle is pretty damn fine. If anything the revolver might be too accurate on intermediate ranges, while still being too clunky at close quarters. But, then again, I really don't like the revolver anyways.

[sonics01]

On 7/22/2020 at 12:56 AM, jeffpeng said:

What I do agree upon is that the rifle skill actually doesn't provide enough meaning. However I'm unclear how to fix this without either adding too much power to the rifle with high levels or reducing the rifle's power too much with lower levels. The one thing I can see working would be to add a sniping-stance at level 5, in which the player actually lies down flat (which takes some time to do and also to stand back up) which allows to aim without aiming fatigue and also reduces sway once the player has "eased into" the position, as a real marksman would. This would further emphasize the role of the rifle as an offensive hunting tool, and provide significant reward for actually getting to level 5.

Good idea, but I'm using snow shelter for this purpose in my custom game. I still wish to see hand-made bipod and/or prone position, and also rest position using rock or tree branches. 

I think some options from realism has a potential to hit two rabbits with a stone: gaming fun and balance aspect + realism aspect. "Realism option" can fix the issue of usefulness of rifle skill IMO. Some realism considerations will surely increase the difficulty of rifle shooting at lower level. Leave the damage and rifle power, but by touching management of weapon and aim, breath control, and etc: Introduce some penalties to low level, and gradually remove such penalties as a player rifle skill improves, and add a slight bonus at max level.

(By the way, I think it might be a good idea to increase the skill level cap to 7 or 8 or 10 for rifle and some other skills. This will help TLD to describe the "improvement" of skill more realistically, and more gradually. This will help the difficulty balance by increasing difficulty a little bit. Plus, this can be a good late game contents, as the time cost to finish the level up all the way to 10 will definitely not short like level 5. ) 

Return the ballistic curve for rifle bullet will help this too. This will increase the difficulty of long range rifle shooting especially for a player who has low experience of rifle shooting. Until a player have a full sense of bullet drop vs distance, it will be really a burden to attempt a long range rifle. However, the bullet drop of bullet is far less than that of arrow, which means it is still a bit easier than arrow to build a "sense". So it will not be a huge learning-curve-dropper. (See how many battlefield 5 players use their Lee Enfield nicely. It is a joke) As a player develops his own experiences and a sense of bullet drop vs distance, feeling of rewarding from long range rifle shooting will be great. Less swaying / better breath control / slower aim stamina draining speed and etc at higher rifle skill level will help this sense of "rewarding" too. This way, using rifle will be very interesting and rewarding experience. Still, if you don't know how to use rifle properly, of if you're being too overconfident about rifle at higher level, wolves, bears, and a moose will punish you. Hard. 

This will bring a new-era of long-range rifle shooting in TLD. To prevent the situation of too wide spread "long range rifle meta", new wildlife types, such as big cats and polar bears, would be a good counter punch from mother nature of TLD world. This has been suggested in wish list forum sooooo many times so I won't repeat here. But some "stalker" type big cat predator, which always prefer tracking, stalking, and backstabbing rather than face to face rush, will counter any players who only sticks to "sit down in one place and hunt from long range". Regarding polar bear, let the polar bear has a widest smell detection range among all animals. It is true story, by the way.  

https://www.livescience.com/43673-weird-facts-about-polar-bears.html#:~:text=Polar bears have a keen,according to the National Zoo.

This way, if a player stays too long in one position to "snipe a game", then he or she will hear the unpleasant sound of polar bear from behind... 
 

I know I know, Hinterland is busy with performance and optimization issue. But I can wait. In fact, I wish to try this myself by modding. But my works and time and my kids don't allow me the luxury of spending time to modding. Once official modding tool comes out, I think (and I wish) some one will try realism rifle mod. And additional wildlife mod too. 

  

I think these options will increase the difficulty of rifle at early stage, will bring realism, and will balance the rifle so that rifle will not be "easy peasy" rifle in this game.  
 

Also, for Stalker and below difficulty, you may right, rifle is powerful weapon as it is. But in tougher setting, things are slightly different. 

In this setting, weather is too cold to use the rifle reliably. It feels really different from using rifle from Stalker or lower difficulty. I'm considering to add one more difficulty to that custom setting: Fatigue level very high. I'm testing this custom option too, in fact. In this setting, a player is so easily tired, that you cannot aim rifle or bow reliably long enough. And swaying control feels tougher than any other difficulties... I give up to use rifle in this setting. Because of swaying due to chronicle low stamina, I'm just carrying bow and arrow because rifle is only good at short range just like bow, no merit of rifle.

(no revolver option BTW, I think revolver really reduce the difficulty, because it unburdens the wolf threat significantly. Bullet swapping at gunsmithing level 5 is also very huge bonus at late game. So I think revolver is OP) 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by sonics01

[manni.manni]

Hey @ManicManiac

 

Thanks for your reply! I appreciate your response and don’t worry; I never took any of them personally. However, I also disagree with some of your points, so I will respond to them.

 

Also, I’m not adept at using the quote feature and I cbf learning them AND I’m using Word to then copypasta it here so meh...

 

1. I didn’t use the search feature because I sent my suggestions directly to Hinterland and they told  me post it here. Hence, why I'm here.
 

2. We don’t have to worry about wind or elevation… - Yeah I’m aware I’m playing a game. I actually have a problem when games attempt realism and win at some aspects and lose at some aspects. Takes me out of the experience. I don’t want TLD to be real life, nor The Hunter. I like it as is but I just have suggestions.
 

3. I’m sure it’s frustrating but hang in there… - I’m an exploit gamer. As I said, TLD has made me a bow person because exploiting the game has taught me that the rifle is useless (personally - at the moment). Because of it’s current state, I use the rifle for fun, not when I’m playing “seriously”.
 

4. More people should understand and accept that video game doesn’t have to reflect reality… - in addition to #2, I never once said that I wanted realism in the game. If anything, I want it to be more of a game. TLD tries to be realistic in some aspects, some of which I like. However, in other aspects, fall so short or, imo, is adapted badly – feel free believe that they are adapted well, I’m not here to change your mind. I just wanted more dynamic game features to be added into the rifle.
 

5.  don’t think Hinterland is out to tailor for one individual… - I know, which is why I made suggestions – not demands. I needed to mention that I ‘sent them feedback’ because that’s what led me to post here. I know it’s their game and I also respect them for it. I mean if they didn’t tell me to post here, I wouldn’t be here, correct? Again, I mentioned that because that’s why I’m posting here.
 

6. Skilled marksmen wouldn’t recommend holding breath… - Again, I never asked for realism. I’m not a marksman. I’m a gamer. And games have game features, namely: holding breath to steady or lessen sway. You’re the one with gun experience and I have none, hence why I never once mentioned anything about wanting realistic shooting mechanics.
6b. Sitting and prone is better than standing or kneeling – Refer to #6. Also, I never mentioned sitting or prone because they are not options in the game, nor did I ask for them to add sitting and prone.
 

7. The advantages we get from the skill tree are significant… - For the rifle, no. Again, as an exploit gamer, the current state of the rifle is a steppingstone. It’s a handicap – for me – once I get the bow.
Weighs too much, sways too much, and the bow is superior in every aspect.
7a. I can kill a charging bear or a moose using 1 arrow – why should I use a rifle to do that? That’s my skill personal skill with the bow.
7b. Hunting with a bow and carrying home 20+ kgs of meat/hide is better than carrying an extra 4kgs of the rifle.
My point is, the rifle [to me] is nothing but a hindrance therefore, I get rid of it. And that’s what I don’t like about it’s current state. I want to love the TLD rifle and I want to use the rifle. But its okay Manic, agree to disagree.

 

8. I think because again… this is not encouraged by folks with good marksmanship experience… - You can’t say More people should understand and accept that video game doesn’t have to reflect reality and then say holding your breath is not recommended by experienced marksmen. I asked for dynamic game mechanics – not realism.

 

9. I think all weapons are balanced against each other… - Again, I can one shot a charging bear and a moose with one arrow. That’s actually my preferred way of hunting them – get them to charge then put an arrow between their eyes. I shouldn’t be able to do that IRL – not even with a gun. But the game’s rules say it’s possible. Which, again (refer to 7a & 7b)
 

10.“jerk the bolt” not cock the bolt – Shows my lack of knowledge with guns. I actually had to google it but couldn’t find “jerk the bolt” so I used cock. I appreciate that smiley face right next to your correction though. Also, don’t get me wrong. I’m not complaining about the rifle because I’m an angry noob who can’t use the TLD rifle. I love using it actually. I enjoy running around the map and getting surrounded by wolves to quick-scope them. But when I play seriously, it’s a hindrance (refer to 7b). Faster “jerk the bolt” was a suggestion for the sake of dynamic game mechanics – not realism. Something I thought could make it compete against the bow. It’s not the best idea but its an idea nonetheless – maybe someone can think of something better.
 

11. I use stones to drive off wolves before wasting revolver rounds… - Good for you man. I have 500+ revolver rounds and more to craft with. Not to mention that I can always start a new game and get craft more revolver ammo. So hey, you like stones, I like revolver rounds – agree to disagree.
 

12. Your response to “so when I miss shots, I feel personally responsible”… - I think you missed my point there.

I never said it was a bad thing that I felt crushed whenever I missed a shot using the rifle. I personally see it as a good thing. However, my complain is that I can blame the game because of the TLD sway and that there is no way to steady or lessen the sway other than bringing tons of coffee. As I said before, I love quickscoping charging wolf packs (not timber wolves yet, I’m still trying to master that).

My simple point there is that the current rifle is not a good contender vs the bow. I have no reason to use the rifle and I have every reason to use the bow.

 

You addressing my list:

1.     You can’t say More people should understand and accept that video game doesn’t have to reflect reality and then say holding your breath is not recommended by experienced marksmen.

2.     Alright, I agree with that.

3.     Okay, a little common ground, that’s neat!

4.     I’m pretty sure when players ask for the game to be more challenging, they’re not referring to the rifle. Remember, these players are the same players who play on Interloper – where there is no rifle *mic drop* (hahaha sorry I’m just having fun)

 

Hey, if you think the game is challenging, that’s good! I think so too…for the first few days at least because that’s how long I usually take before crafting a bow – then the game is on easy mode.

I just want the rifle to be useful. But hey, if Hinterland believes the current state of the rifle is the way they want it to be, that’s okay! I’ll just be sticking to my bow and I’ll keep wondering what it would be like if the rifle was just as strong.

Don’t worry man, I can take feedback. Agree to disagree!

[manni.manni]

@Screenshot Pilgrim Yeah I know which is why I just quickscope with the rifle HAHAHA

I never use it when playing seriously. I just rush the bow. I keep the rifle for achievements or honestly for decorations - like a trophy. I want to have a reason to use it. Coz as of now, I still have no reason to

I really like that idea you have of mounting the rifle! I wish I thought of that! Oh man if only... we can only wish. I mean, as I said in a previous reply...

"I just want the rifle to be useful. But hey, if Hinterland believes the current state of the rifle is the way they want it to be, that’s okay! I’ll just be sticking to my bow and I’ll keep wondering what it would be like if the rifle was just as strong."

[manni.manni]

@piddy3825 Yeah man, Bow-Gang for life. Well for now at least. Unless they make the rifle more of a viable contender vs the bow. Also that crouching with the bow I'm sure is just a balance thing hahaha because its too damn OP. Also yeah that is a fun use for the revolver considering you can craft 10 billion revolver ammo.

[manni.manni]

@NardoLoopa

I just quickscope with the rifle hahaha

Also yeah man, ANY form of sway reduction (never elimination) would be appreciated! Whether it be a hold-breath or whatever Hinterland or anyone comes up with! I also agree with your crouch aim idea - they should never eliminate sway.

As for the bolt action, there are some discussion from people about that. Some say its unrealistic, some say it is. Honestly, I just suggested that as the game's way to compensate for the OP-ness of the bow.

And yes the revolver is SO OP. Which is why, to me, to not use it is a personal handicap. But hey! Mad respect to you for not using the OP revolver hahaha I salute players like you!

The thing I look for in game weapons is reliability. Is it good for offense? What about defense? What about on the move? Is it efficient? Is it replaceble? Is ammo abundant? Can I kill all enemies with it? etc etc. The rifle fails vs the bow when it comes to MY criteria in reliability. Which is why I opt for the bow/revolver combo. I'm literally unstoppable. Only timber wolves give me trouble. Bears and moose are literal child's play to me - no matter the difficulty.

Which is also why I wished the rifle could be a more competent option vs the bow. I want to be have a hard time choosing what to bring outside - the bow or the rifle? I want to regret not bringing the rifle. But I never do. Yet I always regret not bringing the bow.

[manni.manni]

@Screenshot Pilgrim