Knife, Hatchet, and Rifle repair ridiculousness

[Boston123]

Can someone give me a reason as why we need "scrap metal" to repair our knives, hatchets and rifle?

If my knife gets dull (which is what I am assuming is happening when it gets damaged), I am not going to use pliers and such to do....unspecified things to my knife with scrap metal and wood. I am going to take a sharpening stone (or a regular, close-grained rock, if I don't have a sharpening stone) to it. Same thing with my hatchet.

Even with a rifle, "adding" scrap metal and wood to a damaged rifle with some tools will not magically repair it. Since it gets "damaged" every time we fire, I am assuming it isn't actually getting "damaged", merely dirty. Therefore, you just need to clean it.

New System suggestion!

Knife: stone (low-level repairs)/ sharpening stone (high-level repairs) + kerosene/animal fat

Hatchet : stone/sharpening stone (low-level repairs) / Metal file (high-level repairs) + kerosene/ animal fat

Rifle: Hot water + cloth + kerosene + tools

There, a much more realistic system

[Cosmoline]

I would alter your suggestions slightly to mandate rendered bear fat specifically. This would also give an incentive to go hunt the great beasts.

And bear fat should be a mandate for rifle as well, to prevent rust. Which is a huge problem IRL when you're bringing sub-zero steel rifles into warm cabins. Insta-rust.

[StringEpsilon]

+1

Though I always thought I'd replace the handle when repairing the knife or hatchet - but your suggestions is much more sensible. But that would make scrap metal much less useful. Any ideas on that? Use it for improvised tools? Remove it completely?

[klesh]

You presume that the deterioration of the object is limited to dulling of the blade.

What happens if you break your axe handle? You're saying to use a Metal file on it?

You'd need new wood for the handle and potentially a piece of scrap metal to wedge the handle in the axe's eye.

I do like your suggestions for sharpening though. Perhaps a secondary rating for weapons, "effectiveness" or some other general term, that would represent dirtiness on the rifle (more dirt-> less effective) and sharpness on the blades (more sharp -> more effective) with their corresponding recipes for "repair".

[Boston123]

You presume that the deterioration of the object is limited to dulling of the blade.

What happens if you break your axe handle? You're saying to use a Metal file on it?

You'd need new wood for the handle and potentially a piece of scrap metal to wedge the handle in the axe's eye.

I do like your suggestions for sharpening though. Perhaps a secondary rating for weapons, "effectiveness" or some other general term, that would represent dirtiness on the rifle (more dirt-> less effective) and sharpness on the blades (more sharp -> more effective) with their corresponding recipes for "repair".

Generally, if you break an axe handle, you are doing something seriously wrong (missing the wood with the head and hitting it with the handle, most likely). In my 8+ years of varied wilderness experience, I have not once broken a hatchet handle. Plenty of felling/splitting axe handles, but never a hatchet. Generally, it is pretty difficult to "lose control" of a hatchet, as they are shorter, the "balance" is closer to the hand, and you are using it in a much more controlled and confined fashion than you are an axe.

Not including the fact that hatchet/axe handles are extremely easy to replace. (You will have a straight, tomahawk-style shaft instead of the curved axe-style shaft, but all that means is you need to exert more careful control of your grip and swing) I've made a replacement handle for a splitting axe in about 5 minutes. No scrap metal is needed to wedge the eye, just use a wedge of wood.

With some of the ideas mentioned on this thread, I think that tools should have two "characteristics": "condition" and "wear". "Condition" is the pure percentage-based "health" of the object, is irreparable, and happens SLOWLY over time. "Wear" is the "acting" effectiveness of the tool (sharpness for knives/hatchets, cleanliness for rifle, clearness of glass for lantern, etc), and can be repaired using the right tools.

If a tool breaks, you can salvage other tools of the same type to "repair it": firing pin snaps on the rifle, take parts from another rifle to replace. Although, why wouldn't you just use the other not-broken tool?....

[Snoman]

+1

I would also add that dirty rifles lose accuracy.

As far as not losing control of a hatchet. Sadly well in the rockys camping my buddy got my hatch stuck in his knee cap. 4 years earlier he did the same thing with a ka-bar knife. I only tell you this to point out that not every one is able to use tools, and some never learn.

[octavian]

Can someone give me a reason as why we need "scrap metal" to repair our knives, hatchets and rifle?

Same reason arrows leave a goofy trail behind them while flying.

[AmericanSteel]

I have beat this horse to death over numerous posts. I think the entire logic behind spare parts is deeply flawed. However, I understand the devs want to add in a simple mechanism to fix multiple things. Unfortunately it comes across as convoluted. Even McGuyger could not fix a damaged rifle barrel with the remnants of a can opener, knife, axe or prybar. Using another rifle for spare parts might work, as long as the parts you need are not amiss there to. That said, this may simply be a place holder for something more realistic coming down the pipe.

I think the tool kit alone would be enough to maintain an axe or a knife. While my electronics tool box does not contain the right tools, my standard tool box does. I have a wet stone and numerous files to maintain various blades: chainsaw, lawn mowers, shovel, edger, hatchet, machete, landscaping axe, splitting axe, wedge and even a knife. If you have a yard and yard tools then you need something to keep them in working order. Having a kit drop by 1% per use for every 25% of "maintenance" would be dandy.

You need then a simple maintenance kit to keep the rifle in order: clp, oil rag, rod, bore brush and swatches. Considering the temp, cold weather clp would be preferable. Using bear fat to maintain the weapon is a recipe for disaster. In cold weather the idea is to leave less lubricant in the works, not more. Also, bear fat is not a cleaner... it is just grease. Ever cleaned a dish with grease? Didn't think so. I grease my cast iron skillet afterwards, but then I don't shoot with either. I use it in the oven or over a fire. Also, Most people are not gunsmiths. While I can maintain a slew of weapons, I would not try to repair most of them. If I was going to repair an weapon, I would look for spare parts to replace: firing pins, bolts, spring assemblies, trigger mechanisms. I propose we need a rifle toolkit that uses 1% for every 5% of maintenance. Honestly, I would never fire a weapon I did not think was at 100%. Firing a weapon that is not in perfect working order is a recipe for disaster. However, I proposed malfunctions on another thread so I will not hijack this one.

[Lotean]

I have beat this horse to death over numerous posts. I think the entire logic behind spare parts is deeply flawed. However, I understand the devs want to add in a simple mechanism to fix multiple things. Unfortunately it comes across as convoluted. Even McGuyger could not fix a damaged rifle barrel with the remnants of a can opener, knife, axe or prybar. Using another rifle for spare parts might work, as long as the parts you need are not amiss there to. That said, this may simply be a place holder for something more realistic coming down the pipe.

I think the tool kit alone would be enough to maintain an axe or a knife. While my electronics tool box does not contain the right tools, my standard tool box does. I have a wet stone and numerous files to maintain various blades: chainsaw, lawn mowers, shovel, edger, hatchet, machete, landscaping axe, splitting axe, wedge and even a knife. If you have a yard and yard tools then you need something to keep them in working order. Having a kit drop by 1% per use for every 25% of "maintenance" would be dandy.

You need then a simple maintenance kit to keep the rifle in order: clp, oil rag, rod, bore brush and swatches. Considering the temp, cold weather clp would be preferable. Using bear fat to maintain the weapon is a recipe for disaster. In cold weather the idea is to leave less lubricant in the works, not more. Also, bear fat is not a cleaner... it is just grease. Ever cleaned a dish with grease? Didn't think so. I grease my cast iron skillet afterwards, but then I don't shoot with either. I use it in the oven or over a fire. Also, Most people are not gunsmiths. While I can maintain a slew of weapons, I would not try to repair most of them. If I was going to repair an weapon, I would look for spare parts to replace: firing pins, bolts, spring assemblies, trigger mechanisms. I propose we need a rifle toolkit that uses 1% for every 5% of maintenance. Honestly, I would never fire a weapon I did not think was at 100%. Firing a weapon that is not in perfect working order is a recipe for disaster. However, I proposed malfunctions on another thread so I will not hijack this one.

Well to be fair, firing a weapon that's not in exact working order isn't 'that' much of a disaster. I mean it 'could' explode, especially at the low temperatures of the tundra around you but the chances of that are relatively low. What you'll really see most commonly is mr jam, a lot, especially if you're firing what could honestly be hand-loaded ammunition. Though test firing a weapon that could be faulty isn't a huge big deal, at least if you don't use it to go after the alpha wolf or mister bear on that first try. I propose we eventually get to be allowed to inspect our rifles and equipment to see if they're in proper working order. I wouldn't fire a weapon that I didn't know worked and had personally disassembled and cleaned either. That's a good way to get a click when you need a bang. Especially if the rifle was left behind because the firing pin had become no good, or the trigger was just soft mush because, yes the spring mechanism had busted.

I always wondered why can't we have an array of spare parts, tools, and equipment that would really help us all survive and attain true 'survivalist' status. Then again I wonder why I didn't have several broken bones from my run in with Mrs bear when she caught me and expressed her displeasure at being my shooting target...

[AmericanSteel]

Well to be fair, firing a weapon that's not in exact working order isn't 'that' much of a disaster. I mean it 'could' explode, especially at the low temperatures of the tundra around you but the chances of that are relatively low. What you'll really see most commonly is mr jam, a lot, especially if you're firing what could honestly be hand-loaded ammunition.

Putting your life on the line and depending on a weapon = disaster when the weapon fails. Hopefully you someone to back your play OR a backup weapon. When I hunted in Colorado I had a partner and a large bore handgun. When I was in the field in the military, I had multiple weapons and a team. When I was a cop, it was just me on the road (with a backup on my ankle) and hopefully backup would arrive PDQ if it hit the fan.

We are in terrible conditions firing at animals that could easily hurt or even kill us. Having a jam or a pop and no kick (which is way worse) is ok on a firing line. Having a wolf or a bear charge you only to hear "click" when the moment is right (shudders). Sounds like a disaster to me.

[Lotean]

We are in terrible conditions firing at animals that could easily hurt or even kill us. Having a jam or a pop and no kick (which is way worse) is ok on a firing line. Having a wolf or a bear charge you only to hear "click" when the moment is right (shudders). Sounds like a disaster to me.

Yea. that's what I'm saying, test firing a weapon to see or firing a round to see the sighting of a not percent confirmed weapon is okay if you aren't out hunting in bad conditions like the game. If you are then yea, you should be fucked. It would be the worst damn disaster ever in that situation though you made it sound like the damn thing should explode on test fire, and the weapon, or more accurately the ammunition should be in pretty goddamn weak condition for that to happen.

[Boston123]

Well to be fair, firing a weapon that's not in exact working order isn't 'that' much of a disaster. I mean it 'could' explode, especially at the low temperatures of the tundra around you but the chances of that are relatively low. What you'll really see most commonly is mr jam, a lot, especially if you're firing what could honestly be hand-loaded ammunition.

Putting your life on the line and depending on a weapon = disaster when the weapon fails. Hopefully you someone to back your play OR a backup weapon. When I hunted in Colorado I had a partner and a large bore handgun. When I was in the field in the military, I had multiple weapons and a team. When I was a cop, it was just me on the road (with a backup on my ankle) and hopefully backup would arrive PDQ if it hit the fan.

We are in terrible conditions firing at animals that could easily hurt or even kill us. Having a jam or a pop and no kick (which is way worse) is ok on a firing line. Having a wolf or a bear charge you only to hear "click" when the moment is right (shudders). Sounds like a disaster to me.

Which is why you duct-tape a knife to the barrel of the rifle. Or, flip it over and swing it like a club.

The bullet isn't the only part of the gun that is deadly....

[Lotean]

Which is why you duct-tape a knife to the barrel of the rifle. Or, flip it over and swing it like a club.

The bullet isn't the only part of the gun that is deadly....

First of all, duct tape has many uses, taping a knife to your enfield in the game is not one of them as you'll only get... Maybe one strike before you have to fix the tape and even then you have more chance of breaking your knife on a successful hit. Second part is that, the only real part of the rifle I'd use as a weapon is the butt, and even then I'd probably wind up doing more maintenance than anything else. Especially hurting an attacking wolf.

Stop watching movies bro. It seems to be bad for your health...

[Boston123]

Which is why you duct-tape a knife to the barrel of the rifle. Or, flip it over and swing it like a club.

The bullet isn't the only part of the gun that is deadly....

First of all, duct tape has many uses, taping a knife to your enfield in the game is not one of them as you'll only get... Maybe one strike before you have to fix the tape and even then you have more chance of breaking your knife on a successful hit. Second part is that, the only real part of the rifle I'd use as a weapon is the butt, and even then I'd probably wind up doing more maintenance than anything else. Especially hurting an attacking wolf.

Stop watching movies bro. It seems to be bad for your health...

That one strike is all you need. Stab the wolf right in the torso, and it will be in no position to attack or follow you. Hell, if I had to, I would throw the rifle right at the animal, to give myself a few more feet to run. Anything to make the animal decide "this isn't worth it".

Do you have any survival training? Because making a tool/weapon more effective is a very worthwhile thing to do. You just changed an exclusively-long-ranged firearm into a weapon that is effective at both long and short range. +10 in my book. Who cares if you have to fix it afterwards? You are alive, that is all that matters.

The in-game knife is "full-tang". You aren't going to be doing anything capable of breaking it.

The in-game "hunting rifle" is a mock-up of the British SMLE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2%80% ... field_Mk_I)

Like all other military firearms, all parts of it where designed to be usable as a weapon if necessary. Especially the buttstock, which is probably the "solid-est" part of the rifle. You aren't going to damage anything on the rifle cracking a wolf in the skull with it.

Anything that I could do to help me survive, I would do. Up to and including lashing or otherwise securing a knife to the end of a rifle, to give me an edge if I get jumped by wolf or bear. Will it cause damage to, or even kill, the animal? In real life, yes. Will it make the animal back off? In real life, yes. Animals, even predators, don't want to get hurt. Make it "difficult" enough to attack you, and they will probably leave you alone.

Hell, making some sort of spear is probably one of the first things I would do in a TLD-style situation, after finding shelter and making fire. Fast, easy, and effective. A spear will keep you alive.

[Lotean]

That one strike is all you need. Stab the wolf right in the torso, and it will be in no position to attack or follow you. Hell, if I had to, I would throw the rifle right at the animal, to give myself a few more feet to run. Anything to make the animal decide "this isn't worth it".

Okay... Even though if the wolf or more accurately in a wolf's case the pack is coming after me the community decision is most likely to kill me and eat me. Unless I violated his territory somehow but the wolves here don't seem to have territorial rights that aren't 'EVERYWHERE you iz' and even then unless I do sufficient harm to the animal to make him decide differently on attacking me. As to your stabbing spear, get a stick or a broom, tape a smaller stick onto the longer end of the broom, find a full size dog, if you have one that's even better, piss the doggy off enough to fight you and attempt to stab it with your improvised weapon. See how well that goes for you.

Now imagine the difficulty of doing this with an improvised weapon on the defensive. To boot your test subject probably isn't used to fighting/killing prey, the targets you suggest are... Also throwing your rifle at the wolf, while a novel idea presents a problem. if they decide to stick around, then you're minus one rifle. Making any ammunition you may have or have had useless.

Do you have any survival training? Because making a tool/weapon more effective is a very worthwhile thing to do. You just changed an exclusively-long-ranged firearm into a weapon that is effective at both long and short range. +10 in my book. Who cares if you have to fix it afterwards? You are alive, that is all that matters.

Any formal survival training? No I haven't had that, but the thing is, making a weapon/tool more effective needs to be though of in the longer term not just the short term. As I might not have an infinite supply of duct tape...

The in-game knife is "full-tang". You aren't going to be doing anything capable of breaking it.

Full tang knives break, even under the conditions we're putting it under in game and I don't know about this knife I'm using or even better why it was sitting abandoned in the trappers lodge. The cold isn't helping either...

The in-game "hunting rifle" is a mock-up of the British SMLE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2%80% ... field_Mk_I)

Like all other military firearms, all parts of it where designed to be usable as a weapon if necessary. Especially the buttstock, which is probably the "solid-est" part of the rifle. You aren't going to damage anything on the rifle cracking a wolf in the skull with it.

Yes because physics somehow doesn't affect a Military built rifle! That we most likely have to use for a long, long time, without jamming a round in the chamber if I'm doing this while the rifle is 'hot', maligning the firing pin, upsetting the spring works, and keeping the rifle accurate. The reason you can get away with using the rifle as a club in a military conflict is that the quartermaster probably has another rifle for you if you break the one you have. We don't have that luxury. Not to say I wouldn't use the butt of my rifle to cave in a wolf's skull, I'd just be maintaining it a lot more if I had to and I wouldn't want to either, it would be a 'have to only' type measure.

Anything that I could do to help me survive, I would do. Up to and including lashing or otherwise securing a knife to the end of a rifle, to give me an edge if I get jumped by wolf or bear. Will it cause damage to, or even kill, the animal? In real life, yes. Will it make the animal back off? In real life, yes. Animals, even predators, don't want to get hurt. Make it "difficult" enough to attack you, and they will probably leave you alone.

Hell, making some sort of spear is probably one of the first things I would do in a TLD-style situation, after finding shelter and making fire. Fast, easy, and effective. A spear will keep you alive.

I agree, but in reality the loud bang of a fire-stick would be more than sufficient to keep most animals away and make them back off. I'd much rather make a spear out of the trees and strong sticks around me rather than waste a perfectly good rifle because 'My trainer said this would work...' Oh, your video is fucking awesome. that's exactly what I'm talking about.

[Scyzara]

As to your stabbing spear, get a stick or a broom, tape a smaller stick onto the longer end of the broom, find a full size dog, if you have one that's even better, piss the doggy off enough to fight you and attempt to stab it with your improvised weapon. See how well that goes for you.

Most likely not very well because the dog's owner (or the state if anyone sees & reports you abusing a stray/your own dog) is going to sue the hell out of you and you'll end up with either a substantial fine or even for a few days in prison (depending on the dog's injuries and your country's animal protection laws). Dreadful suggestion, anyway. Some theories should better not be tested. x-x'

[Lotean]

As to your stabbing spear, get a stick or a broom, tape a smaller stick onto the longer end of the broom, find a full size dog, if you have one that's even better, piss the doggy off enough to fight you and attempt to stab it with your improvised weapon. See how well that goes for you.

Most likely not very well because the dog's owner (or the state if anyone sees & reports you abusing a stray/your own dog) is going to sue the hell out of you and you'll end up with either a substantial fine or even for a few days in prison (depending on the dog's injuries and your country's animal protection laws). Dreadful suggestion, anyway. Some theories should better not be tested. x-x'

I'm really just saying how hard it is to actually fight a dog with a stick attached to another stick as what was described. A plain spear makes this easier but most things want to survive was my point and would see the long pointy object as a threat. I wasn't going to go into the legal stuff about animal abuse but yea, add everything you said along with the fact you had your ass kicked by said dog...

[Boston123]

That one strike is all you need. Stab the wolf right in the torso, and it will be in no position to attack or follow you. Hell, if I had to, I would throw the rifle right at the animal, to give myself a few more feet to run. Anything to make the animal decide "this isn't worth it".

Okay... Even though if the wolf or more accurately in a wolf's case the pack is coming after me the community decision is most likely to kill me and eat me. Unless I violated his territory somehow but the wolves here don't seem to have territorial rights that aren't 'EVERYWHERE you iz' and even then unless I do sufficient harm to the animal to make him decide differently on attacking me. As to your stabbing spear, get a stick or a broom, tape a smaller stick onto the longer end of the broom, find a full size dog, if you have one that's even better, piss the doggy off enough to fight you and attempt to stab it with your improvised weapon. See how well that goes for you.

Now imagine the difficulty of doing this with an improvised weapon on the defensive. To boot your test subject probably isn't used to fighting/killing prey, the targets you suggest are... Also throwing your rifle at the wolf, while a novel idea presents a problem. if they decide to stick around, then you're minus one rifle. Making any ammunition you may have or have had useless.

Do you have any survival training? Because making a tool/weapon more effective is a very worthwhile thing to do. You just changed an exclusively-long-ranged firearm into a weapon that is effective at both long and short range. +10 in my book. Who cares if you have to fix it afterwards? You are alive, that is all that matters.

Any formal survival training? No I haven't had that, but the thing is, making a weapon/tool more effective needs to be though of in the longer term not just the short term. As I might not have an infinite supply of duct tape...

The in-game knife is "full-tang". You aren't going to be doing anything capable of breaking it.

Full tang knives break, even under the conditions we're putting it under in game and I don't know about this knife I'm using or even better why it was sitting abandoned in the trappers lodge. The cold isn't helping either...

The in-game "hunting rifle" is a mock-up of the British SMLE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2%80% ... field_Mk_I)

Like all other military firearms, all parts of it where designed to be usable as a weapon if necessary. Especially the buttstock, which is probably the "solid-est" part of the rifle. You aren't going to damage anything on the rifle cracking a wolf in the skull with it.

Yes because physics somehow doesn't affect a Military built rifle! That we most likely have to use for a long, long time, without jamming a round in the chamber if I'm doing this while the rifle is 'hot', maligning the firing pin, upsetting the spring works, and keeping the rifle accurate. The reason you can get away with using the rifle as a club in a military conflict is that the quartermaster probably has another rifle for you if you break the one you have. We don't have that luxury. Not to say I wouldn't use the butt of my rifle to cave in a wolf's skull, I'd just be maintaining it a lot more if I had to and I wouldn't want to either, it would be a 'have to only' type measure.

Anything that I could do to help me survive, I would do. Up to and including lashing or otherwise securing a knife to the end of a rifle, to give me an edge if I get jumped by wolf or bear. Will it cause damage to, or even kill, the animal? In real life, yes. Will it make the animal back off? In real life, yes. Animals, even predators, don't want to get hurt. Make it "difficult" enough to attack you, and they will probably leave you alone.

Hell, making some sort of spear is probably one of the first things I would do in a TLD-style situation, after finding shelter and making fire. Fast, easy, and effective. A spear will keep you alive.

I agree, but in reality the loud bang of a fire-stick would be more than sufficient to keep most animals away and make them back off. I'd much rather make a spear out of the trees and strong sticks around me rather than waste a perfectly good rifle because 'My trainer said this would work...' Oh, your video is fucking awesome. that's exactly what I'm talking about.

I just did what you suggest, with a wooden broom handle and a knife-blade lashed to it. I just punched the knife-blade through a road-sign and several wooden boxes (physics and angles, brutha!). Of course, the tip of the blade is dulled, but I got a good 4 inches of penetration through it, and a metal sign is far tougher than a wolf or bear. The animal is either heavily wounded at worst (with severe internal bleeding), or dead at best.

Using it on the defensive would be even easier, as both predators in-game charge right at you. Hold the rifle-spear out, brace it well, and let them impale themselves on it using their own momentum. Done.

And, the whole of the above is why I don't really like the wolves in TLD, at least in their current implementation. In real life (and I know that the title screen has "not trying to be realistic" emblazoned right on it), wolves don't attack animals, or people, willy-nilly. Even if they are frightened due to a geomagnetic event, you would SERIOUSLY have to piss them off to get them to attack you like they do in-game. Even if you wander through their territory, they would first "shadow" you, then reveal themselves to scare you away. An attack would be the absolute-100%-last option. Also, they wouldn't likely attack you mano-a-mano, like they currently do, but overwhelm you with pack tactics instead. IMO, having the wolves actually behave like, you know.... WOLVES, would make for a better, more immersive game, as opposed to the current "furry zombies" we have now. What is more frightening, having a wolf charge at you for no reason other than you broke its "patrol", or seeing a wolf crest the top of a hill, then realizing you are surrounded?

For the rifle, I don't particularly care if I break it, especially since we can find more than one rifle per savegame (at least one per map, IIRC). Even if I only had the one, I would sacrifice it without a second thought if I thought it would keep me alive. I, for one, would rather spend "things than blood". Up to and including my backpack, food, or clothing. I can find or make more of everything I need to survive ( in real life, at least. TLD is different, and it suffers for it, at least IMHO), whereas you can't easily heal from an injury.

Also, yes, full-tang knives can break, but they are much harder to break than other types. And, so long as you don't use the knife (this goes for all other tools as well) for things you probably shouldn't be using a knife for (processing wood, prying, hammering, etc), chances are it will last you for FAR longer. Can I use my knife for processing wood, prying, hammering, etc? Of course, but I overwhelmingly prefer not to, and I carry tools to do that. Yes, "multifunctionality" is a definite bonus when it comes to outdoor gear, but it also lends itself to tools getting damaged/broken when they don't really need to. Case in point: my knife is capable of mostly anything, but I still carry a hatchet and folding saw, for the "heavy stuff", and leave my knife for "light things". The hatchet and folding saw are (relatively) lightweight, perfectly functional, and never leave my pack. If I have to leave my pack behind, they get attached to my belt, right next to my knife (with its associated survival kit).

For survival purposes, I prefer to be flexible. My skills are far more important than equipment, and as such, I would sacrifice any and every bit of my equipment if necessary to supplement my skills. Take the head off a hatchet to re-purpose as an adze for woodwork for making a backpack frame? Totally, have done it. Lash my knife to a study pole in order to poke into a dark hole (or as an emergency weapon when surrounded by yipping coyotes?) No issues there. Rip up a shirt to use as quick cordage or as an emergency bandage until I could get back to camp (so I could actually sterilize the other rags via boiling)? Yep.

Yes, losing equipment makes survival harder. But I would rather it be "more difficult" as opposed to "outright impossible", which is what survival becomes when you are dead.

In descending order of importance:

Pure dumb luck

Equipment

flexibility (able to improvise equipment, figure out situations, etc)

Skills

"Will to survive" (morale, determination, happiness, etc)

[AmericanSteel]

If we could attached a "pointy bit" to the end of our rifle, we just need to make sure the workings don't interfere with the sights or the bullet's exit path. While making a bayonet out of a knife and whatever may sound groovy we can't even make a spear yet. Kind of a moot point.

As someone who has done a lot of combat rifle drills and pugil pits, a butt stroke is not very easy. It is also done to the head region of a target. Taking that same overhead swing down to dog or a much lower upper cut height makes for an over extension. After all, we are swinging the butt of a weapon not a baseball bat. Jabbing with the bayonet is not to hard. There you are aiming center mass with anything off the central kill zone as a hit just allows a butt stoke or another round of stabby, stabby. Aligning with a wolf would not be to bad, but you are attacking a target with a lower profile at its thinnest (our front is our widest).

Believe it or not, this same bayonet/butt stroke discussion was had on the Project: Zomboid forums over a year ago. Considering out opponents were "human" that had problems with head injuries, the discussion was pretty valid. They also don't defend themselves. It's the numbers that wear you down and mistake = death. I think a lone wolf coming at you and the player having a spear would be a pretty easy kill for the player. It is when a wolf jumps on you from hiding or has their pack along for the kill... that is when things go south in a hurry.

Go to about 2 min in the video. While I did not train "this way", you get the gist of it.

That said, what do you do if you bayonet gets stuck in the rib cage of our your opponent? You fire off a round or two to dislodge your weapon. I asked the drill sergeants if I had bullets why was I using a bayonet. I had to do push ups in the mud for half an hour for being a smart ass.

[TWM]

What is more frightening, having a wolf charge at you for no reason other than you broke its "patrol", or seeing a wolf crest the top of a hill, then realizing you are surrounded?

I get what you're saying, but in my opinion that would make for lousy gameplay. Because it would mean the wolves would be no problem for you for weeks (if you encounter one, it would simply run away), and when they do become a problem, you little chance of survival whatsoever.

Just imagine going for twenty days without being attacked by wolves and then being hounded by six or seven at once. It's going to be over real quick. Just like your next run, and the next, and the next.

And let's say you manage to kill off four wolves and have the rest scurry off... What are you going to do with all the meat? Camp out in the middle of nowhere to scavenge the bodies for the rest couple of days? Tuck four wolf pelts at once in your backpack?

I'm not saying it couldn't be fun once or twice...

[Boston123]

What is more frightening, having a wolf charge at you for no reason other than you broke its "patrol", or seeing a wolf crest the top of a hill, then realizing you are surrounded?

I get what you're saying, but in my opinion that would make for lousy gameplay. Because it would mean the wolves would be no problem for you for weeks (if you encounter one, it would simply run away), and when they do become a problem, you little chance of survival whatsoever.

Just imagine going for twenty days without being attacked by wolves and then being hounded by six or seven at once. It's going to be over real quick. Just like your next run, and the next, and the next.

And let's say you manage to kill off four wolves and have the rest scurry off... What are you going to do with all the meat? Camp out in the middle of nowhere to scavenge the bodies for the rest couple of days? Tuck four wolf pelts at once in your backpack?

I'm not saying it couldn't be fun once or twice...

Which is why you avoid their territory if you don't want a confrontation. The wolves would only attack you if you were injured or presented a danger to their den or pups.

Or, if they stalked you, you could injure/kill one or two, and the rest would leave you alone. Wolves are SMART, and if they know they can't really fight you, they would leave you alone. Read the above: predators don't attack willy-nilly, and they realize that if they attack this "thing" (humans look WEIRD to most animals, due to our movement and upright stance, and most animals actively fear the unknown), they stand a good chance to get hurt/killed. Hence, they better leave it alone from now on. They might follow you, to make sure you aren't up to anything shady, but they would only really attack you if you moved into their territory.

As for "what you could do if you killed 4 wolves" thing: throw them on your travois (http://peabody.yale.edu/sites/default/f ... s_1167.jpg) and drag them back to your "animal processing place" AWAY from your "sleeping place".

[Lotean]

That one strike is all you need. Stab the wolf right in the torso, and it will be in no position to attack or follow you. Hell, if I had to, I would throw the rifle right at the animal, to give myself a few more feet to run. Anything to make the animal decide "this isn't worth it".

Okay... Even though if the wolf or more accurately in a wolf's case the pack is coming after me the community decision is most likely to kill me and eat me. Unless I violated his territory somehow but the wolves here don't seem to have territorial rights that aren't 'EVERYWHERE you iz' and even then unless I do sufficient harm to the animal to make him decide differently on attacking me. As to your stabbing spear, get a stick or a broom, tape a smaller stick onto the longer end of the broom, find a full size dog, if you have one that's even better, piss the doggy off enough to fight you and attempt to stab it with your improvised weapon. See how well that goes for you.

Now imagine the difficulty of doing this with an improvised weapon on the defensive. To boot your test subject probably isn't used to fighting/killing prey, the targets you suggest are... Also throwing your rifle at the wolf, while a novel idea presents a problem. if they decide to stick around, then you're minus one rifle. Making any ammunition you may have or have had useless.

Do you have any survival training? Because making a tool/weapon more effective is a very worthwhile thing to do. You just changed an exclusively-long-ranged firearm into a weapon that is effective at both long and short range. +10 in my book. Who cares if you have to fix it afterwards? You are alive, that is all that matters.

Any formal survival training? No I haven't had that, but the thing is, making a weapon/tool more effective needs to be though of in the longer term not just the short term. As I might not have an infinite supply of duct tape...

The in-game knife is "full-tang". You aren't going to be doing anything capable of breaking it.

Full tang knives break, even under the conditions we're putting it under in game and I don't know about this knife I'm using or even better why it was sitting abandoned in the trappers lodge. The cold isn't helping either...

The in-game "hunting rifle" is a mock-up of the British SMLE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2%80% ... field_Mk_I)

Like all other military firearms, all parts of it where designed to be usable as a weapon if necessary. Especially the buttstock, which is probably the "solid-est" part of the rifle. You aren't going to damage anything on the rifle cracking a wolf in the skull with it.

Yes because physics somehow doesn't affect a Military built rifle! That we most likely have to use for a long, long time, without jamming a round in the chamber if I'm doing this while the rifle is 'hot', maligning the firing pin, upsetting the spring works, and keeping the rifle accurate. The reason you can get away with using the rifle as a club in a military conflict is that the quartermaster probably has another rifle for you if you break the one you have. We don't have that luxury. Not to say I wouldn't use the butt of my rifle to cave in a wolf's skull, I'd just be maintaining it a lot more if I had to and I wouldn't want to either, it would be a 'have to only' type measure.

Anything that I could do to help me survive, I would do. Up to and including lashing or otherwise securing a knife to the end of a rifle, to give me an edge if I get jumped by wolf or bear. Will it cause damage to, or even kill, the animal? In real life, yes. Will it make the animal back off? In real life, yes. Animals, even predators, don't want to get hurt. Make it "difficult" enough to attack you, and they will probably leave you alone.

Hell, making some sort of spear is probably one of the first things I would do in a TLD-style situation, after finding shelter and making fire. Fast, easy, and effective. A spear will keep you alive.

I agree, but in reality the loud bang of a fire-stick would be more than sufficient to keep most animals away and make them back off. I'd much rather make a spear out of the trees and strong sticks around me rather than waste a perfectly good rifle because 'My trainer said this would work...' Oh, your video is fucking awesome. that's exactly what I'm talking about.

I just did what you suggest, with a wooden broom handle and a knife-blade lashed to it. I just punched the knife-blade through a road-sign and several wooden boxes (physics and angles, brutha!). Of course, the tip of the blade is dulled, but I got a good 4 inches of penetration through it, and a metal sign is far tougher than a wolf or bear. The animal is either heavily wounded at worst (with severe internal bleeding), or dead at best.

Using it on the defensive would be even easier, as both predators in-game charge right at you. Hold the rifle-spear out, brace it well, and let them impale themselves on it using their own momentum. Done.

And, the whole of the above is why I don't really like the wolves in TLD, at least in their current implementation. In real life (and I know that the title screen has "not trying to be realistic" emblazoned right on it), wolves don't attack animals, or people, willy-nilly. Even if they are frightened due to a geomagnetic event, you would SERIOUSLY have to piss them off to get them to attack you like they do in-game. Even if you wander through their territory, they would first "shadow" you, then reveal themselves to scare you away. An attack would be the absolute-100%-last option. Also, they wouldn't likely attack you mano-a-mano, like they currently do, but overwhelm you with pack tactics instead. IMO, having the wolves actually behave like, you know.... WOLVES, would make for a better, more immersive game, as opposed to the current "furry zombies" we have now. What is more frightening, having a wolf charge at you for no reason other than you broke its "patrol", or seeing a wolf crest the top of a hill, then realizing you are surrounded?

For the rifle, I don't particularly care if I break it, especially since we can find more than one rifle per savegame (at least one per map, IIRC). Even if I only had the one, I would sacrifice it without a second thought if I thought it would keep me alive. I, for one, would rather spend "things than blood". Up to and including my backpack, food, or clothing. I can find or make more of everything I need to survive ( in real life, at least. TLD is different, and it suffers for it, at least IMHO), whereas you can't easily heal from an injury.

Also, yes, full-tang knives can break, but they are much harder to break than other types. And, so long as you don't use the knife (this goes for all other tools as well) for things you probably shouldn't be using a knife for (processing wood, prying, hammering, etc), chances are it will last you for FAR longer. Can I use my knife for processing wood, prying, hammering, etc? Of course, but I overwhelmingly prefer not to, and I carry tools to do that. Yes, "multifunctionality" is a definite bonus when it comes to outdoor gear, but it also lends itself to tools getting damaged/broken when they don't really need to. Case in point: my knife is capable of mostly anything, but I still carry a hatchet and folding saw, for the "heavy stuff", and leave my knife for "light things". The hatchet and folding saw are (relatively) lightweight, perfectly functional, and never leave my pack. If I have to leave my pack behind, they get attached to my belt, right next to my knife (with its associated survival kit).

For survival purposes, I prefer to be flexible. My skills are far more important than equipment, and as such, I would sacrifice any and every bit of my equipment if necessary to supplement my skills. Take the head off a hatchet to re-purpose as an adze for woodwork for making a backpack frame? Totally, have done it. Lash my knife to a study pole in order to poke into a dark hole (or as an emergency weapon when surrounded by yipping coyotes?) No issues there. Rip up a shirt to use as quick cordage or as an emergency bandage until I could get back to camp (so I could actually sterilize the other rags via boiling)? Yep.

Yes, losing equipment makes survival harder. But I would rather it be "more difficult" as opposed to "outright impossible", which is what survival becomes when you are dead.

In descending order of importance:

Pure dumb luck

Equipment

flexibility (able to improvise equipment, figure out situations, etc)

Skills

"Will to survive" (morale, determination, happiness, etc)

My point on the broom example was fighting a living breathing creature, bent on survival and realizing that pointy thing on the end of your stick was the real source of your lethality. It's hard work because your attacker, or you if you're the aggressor, want to survive too. And I know, you'd have to fuck up major in order to provoke the wolf attacks like in game. I'm really just saying it wouldn't be an 'end all be all' to defending yourself and yes, you're one hundred percent right on expending equipment to keep your overall health intact. Though I'm just having trouble with the 'throw the weapon' at them rather than just using it as intended if I can.

To me the 'throw the gun' example just seems a bit overboard when in my example we have ammunition and the weapon is in good condition. and don't even get me started on 'pistol whipping' I mean yes you can break someone's skull with a pistol but you're most likely going to wind up fucking up your mag and looking like a dumb-ass when all your neatly stacked rounds pour out the wrong way, or your loading spring gives up. And that's only if you use the mag end...

I have various tools for various jobs too, and I agree wholeheartedly with you on that. You seem to know a lot about survival too, and yea, I wonder why exactly I can't make a travois to carry that 100 - 400 LBS or 45KG - 182KG buck back to my processing area where I can spend about 3 or so hours processing all that meat and hide. Wouldn't need to go hunting for a month if we could process our kills right. I guess we started off on the wrong foot, as I hear the suggestion for 'lashing a knife on teh end of borom' waaaaay to often and from frat boy dumbasses who think banging the dumbest broad on campus in the woods gives em survival experience.

[JErosion]

+1 to the idea of having two different Conditions... Maybe "Quality" and "Condition"

with a knife you have to sharpen it,improving its quality, but when you do it also lowers the knife's condition. If you let the Quaility of a knife drop too much , you do less damage to wolves, it takes longer to field dress a deer and may risk lowering the condition when you over use it as well.

The same goes for the Hatchet.

The Rifle (and other fire arms) you can use a cleaning kit to improve its quaility, and if you dont have a cleaning kit, make one, a bandage, scrap metal(for a rod, since using an arrow shaft would be janky) kerosine