Stumbling Mechanic Adjustment


Archonax

Recommended Posts

While stumbling as a pre-death mechanic is immersive (when it isn't flinging you 20 yds at 30mph), the way it is currently implemented feels bad.

Stumbling as it currently exists takes control away from the player when their condition is below a certain threshold. This is almost always fatal -- but when it is not immediately fatal, it is a frustrating whirlwind that replaces the tension of being near-death with anger. Have you ever tried to navigate a buildings internal structure while sitting just below the stumble threshold? It is a Sisyphean task. I've just experienced this -- while it did not turn out to be fatal, it increasingly frustrated me to the point that when I finally reached safety to regain my condition, I ensured my game saved and then immediately exited the game. What should have been exhilaration and relief from recovering from a near-death experience was tainted by the stumbling mechanic.

That being said, I do think it has a place -- just not before death. As your condition gets lower, keep the thumping heartbeat, maybe lose some peripheral vision, etc. Once your condition hits zero? Game over -- hide the UI and lose control of the character, stumbling around as it fades to black (10, 15 seconds). Also -- there needs to be a dampener on the distance the stumble can take you -- in a blizzard you can easily 'stumble' 10-15 yards at faster than a sprint. It's ridiculous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Archonax said:

Stumbling as it currently exists takes control away from the player when their condition is below a certain threshold.

I think that's kind of the point... at such low condition, I think it's a nice touch that they represent incoherence and loss of motor-control in the way that they do.  I really like this aspect, I think it really helps to encourage the player to be careful with their condition.

6 minutes ago, Archonax said:

What should have been exhilaration and relief from recovering from a near-death experience was tainted by the stumbling mechanic.

I disagree.  I think there is a satisfying exhilaration when we can manage to persevere despite our character's body & health failing them... and manage to live to fight another day.  While some may find it frustrating... I do not.  I really like this mechanic.  I get why some don't like it, but I sincerely hope they don't water down the threat of low condition... I think it would take away a lot from the game if they marginalized it.  I think being close to death should be kind of a big deal and very very dangerous.  I think what OP refers to as "stumble mechanic" is wonderful as is.  I think it helps encourage a player to do their best to not get to that point in the first place (and when they do the situation is very dangerous and dire - which I think is very appropriate).

:coffee::fire:
I for one, am glad that (for the most part) this game doesn't hold our hand... and that it's not afraid to give us unsympathetic consequences for our actions & is not afraid to dole out some unfortunate circumstances even when we think we're doing everything right. :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

I think that's kind of the point... at such low condition, I think it's a nice touch that they represent incoherence and loss of motor-control in the way that they do.  I really like this aspect, I think it really helps to encourage the player to be careful with their condition.

I disagree.  I think there is a satisfying exhilaration when we can manage to persevere despite our character's body & health failing them... and manage to live to fight another day.  While some may find it frustrating... I do not.  I really like this mechanic.  I get why some don't like it, but I sincerely hope they don't water down the threat of low condition... I think it would take away a lot from the game if they marginalized it.  I think being close to death should be kind of a big deal and very very dangerous.  I think what OP refers to as "stumble mechanic" is wonderful as is.  I think it helps encourage a player to do their best to not get to that point in the first place (and when they do the situation is very dangerous and dire - which I think is very appropriate).

:coffee::fire:
I for one, am glad that (for the most part) this game doesn't hold our hand... and that it's not afraid to give us unsympathetic consequences for our actions & is not afraid to dole out some unfortunate circumstances even when we think we're doing everything right. :) 

I think you're missing the point.

 

Taking control away from the player -- most of the time causing death -- does not feel good to the player. There is no positive. There are other ways to simulate negative effects at low condition, such as walking slower, decreasingly poor vision, etc.

This is not to make the game 'easier' or to 'hand hold', as you condescendingly stated. If stumbling currently happens at 10/100 condition, then change condition max to 90 and make stumbling happen at 0, as I suggested earlier (a death walk animation of stumbling). That way, there is no 'benefit' to the gameplay, and you don't 'lose control' of your character until you hit '0' -- at which point, you have already lost. It's a psychological aspect you're choosing to ignore.

 

Edit: Specifically, the stumble mechanic as it currently exists is immersion-breaking. TLD's strongest selling point (imo) is it's immersion.

Edited by Archonax
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Archonax said:

Taking control away from the player -- most of the time causing death -- does not feel good to the player. There is no positive.

Correct, there is nothing positive about being near death.  This mechanism conveys that quite well.  It shouldn't feel good.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I didn't miss your point... I got your point just fine.  I just happen to appreciate the "stumble mechanic," and that point that you don't seem to like... I like very much.


 

16 hours ago, Archonax said:

Specifically, the stumble mechanic as it currently exists is immersion-breaking.

Here we go again... "Immersion Breaking." ¬¬  You'll have to bare with me a moment, It's just a subject that comes up a lot - since it's easy to through that word around when folks don't like something.  I've spoken about this before so I'll just echo it here (bare in mind this comes in part from another topic, but my stance remains the same):

On 10/7/2019 at 5:34 AM, ManicManiac said:

what I'm going to talk about is in general terms... that is to say, I am not speaking about any one in particular or any specific examples.  So please bear in mind that as I write my view on the subject you brought up, I'm not referring to your original post so much as the topic of discussion itself.

My thoughts on the subject of "immersion breakers:"

Honestly I think most of the talk about things breaking immersion in this day and age falls into the category of "nit picking" (as you suggested).  It's an easy way for folks to find fault with literally anything... we see this type of thing in all media.  Take "Cinema Sins" for example: if you think about any movie hard enough, you are going to find tropes and irrational leaps of logic, and even sometimes no logic at all.  My point in relation to games and things that some folks say "break immersion," is that most of the time it's pretty silly... I would say there is never a time when you are not aware you are playing a video game.  So in my opinion it's most often a lame thing to complain about because just like a movie... sometimes a video game just needs to video game.

Sometimes this kind or criticism really does have merit... I'm not saying it doesn't.  I am saying that it's become a lightning rod for those who just want to find things to complain about.  So they use it as a convenient cop-out when they just want to dump on something but don't really have anything to complain about.  Let's face it, people nowadays are never satisfied.  If it's not one thing, it would be something else.

For me there is nothing about this game that I consider to be immersion breaking.  I say that because, I choose to accept the world of The Long Dark for what it is... and if you treat any video game and it's constraints at part of that "reality," then it's not really an issue.  The story, lore, atmosphere, aesthetics, and characters (human and non-human) to me are far more important things to talk about when the topic of immersion comes up.

If you can really throw yourself into the world you are playing in, then those little things that can be limiting are not really a problem, it's just a part of the reality you are living in.  I think that immersion has as much to do with us as a participant, as the game does as a means of conveyance.  I also think that too many folks nowadays use anything they don't like about anything and cry "immersion breaking."

And sometimes I see posts discussing things like this, and I recall that wonderful observation from Inigo Montoya:

montoya.png.87e02fafe4ba5425f85f61030be51dba.png

 

On 10/8/2019 at 12:17 AM, ManicManiac said:

Seems to me that the meaning of the terms used are a little confused.  Lack of frustration is not the same thing as immersion.  I think a lot of people erroneously think immersion means "enjoyment" and that's not the case.  I suspect that most people using the word don't know what it means.

im·mer·sion
/iˈmərZHən,iˈmərSHən/
Noun: deep mental involvement

  For example...

On 10/8/2019 at 12:17 AM, ManicManiac said:

So when folk say not being able to step up/jump breaks our "immersion" (a.k.a. - deep mental involvement) in the game, I would posit... no it doesn't.
(I'm using general terms now)

Sure it might frustrate us and even impact our enjoyment (if we choose to let it), but I bet at the same time we are even more deeply mentally involved in what's going on at that moment! :D 

Here's how I see it... the particular rules so far seem very consistent.  Like I was saying earlier, it's all just a part of the reality your character exists in.  All of the other creatures in The Long Dark can't jump/step up either (no I'm not counting attack animations, because it's just an animation and not an actual method of locomotion around the environment).  Everything in the world appears to be on equal footing, so it's fair (I acknowledge I can't see the code so I can't know for sure).  Even with the system set up the way it is, a player can still scale up many surfaces and inclines in ways that the animals can't (because they are not capable of being creative, they just have pathfinding algorithms).  In that regard the player always has the distinct advantage of being able to think creatively and use the mechanics to the utmost that the world allows.

For another example just because you're conditioned to have a jumping mechanic from other games does not mean it's "immersion breaking" just because you don't have a mechanic that you expected in another game.  It's just a design choice.  We can either accept the "reality" we are playing in, or we can choose to let small perceived inconveniences ruin our experience; and that's a personal choice.

The point is... we can't just look to the sky and fly off in the air, and we accept this because that's just part of the reality we live in.  Likewise, in the world of The Long Dark we can't jump/step up, that's also just part of that reality we're playing in.  We may certainly not like it, that's our right.  If we really don't like it we can play something that we like better.

I just think all the use of buzzwords is really tired and in most cases kind of a cop-out, especially when the meaning of the words being used is lost or deeply confused.
 

:coffee::fire:
People playing Super Mario Brother's 3 didn't take a look at the swimming mechanics and clamor, "Oh that's not how swimming works... Immersion Breaking!!!"  I think the problem today is that we are spoiled, nothing is ever enough, and so many people always have to have something to nit pick and complain about.

*I'd be willing to bet that when a player is near death and the "stumble mechanic" takes hold, that a player is more deeply mentally involved than ever before.  :D


:coffee::fire:
I have nothing personal towards you...  I just don't agree with your assertions or assumptions on this particular subject.

Edited by ManicManiac
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

Correct, there is nothing positive about being near death.  This mechanism conveys that quite well.  It shouldn't feel good.

You're being deliberately obtuse. The statement you quoted was in direct response to ManicManiac's comment where he states that the stumble mechanic causes a positive experience when overcome, re:

Quote

I disagree.  I think there is a satisfying exhilaration when we can manage to persevere despite our character's body & health failing them... and manage to live to fight another day.  While some may find it frustrating... I do not.  I really like this mechanic.  I get why some don't like it, but I sincerely hope they don't water down the threat of low condition... I think it would take away a lot from the game if they marginalized it.  I think being close to death should be kind of a big deal and very very dangerous.  I think what OP refers to as "stumble mechanic" is wonderful as is.  I think it helps encourage a player to do their best to not get to that point in the first place (and when they do the situation is very dangerous and dire - which I think is very appropriate).

Obviously, I disagree -- I don't think it holds any positive merits as an active gameplay mechanic (as in feeling accomplished when it is overcome).

---------

5 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

No, I didn't miss your point... I got your point just fine.  I just happen to appreciate the "stumble mechanic," and that point that you don't seem to like... I like very much.


 

Here we go again... "Immersion Breaking." ¬¬  You'll have to bare with me a moment, It's just a subject that comes up a lot - since it's easy to through that word around when folks don't like something.  I've spoken about this before so I'll just echo it here (bare in mind this comes in part from another topic, but my stance remains the same):

[snip]

[snip]

  For example...

[and snip]

*I'd be willing to bet that when a player is near death and the "stumble mechanic" takes hold, that a player is more deeply mentally involved than ever before.  :D


:coffee::fire:
I have nothing personal towards you...  I just don't agree with your assertions or assumptions on this particular subject.

I see you spend a lot of time countering any critical feedback about the game (from your comment history, not just what you've posted/quoted here). And no, I wholeheartedly believe that you missed my point, as you've asserted (so far):

  1. That I want to 'water down the threat of low condition and/or that I think being close to death shouldn't be a big deal or dangerous
    • This point is a fantasy. I never stated that low condition should have no threat (it already does -- wolf attacks kill you! Environmental effects kill you! Lack of food/water kills you!). I stated that the stumble mechanic as it exists does not heighten tension -- it merely takes control away from the player when their situation is already extremely dire.
  2. That I think 'I'm doing everything right' and am just salty about being close to death
    • Another fantasy. I don't know if you noticed in my original post, but I stated that I survived the stumble mechanic and was able to heal up. Instead of satisfaction or relief at recovering from a dire situation with extremely low condition, I was so fed up with fighting the stumble mechanic that I simply closed the game.
  3. That I'm conflating 'frustration' and 'immersion-breaking'
    • Oh boy, here we go. "Since you don't agree with me, you must not know the meaning of words." Sure sure, let's get the definition of both of these out of the way:
      • Frustration: [Merriam-Webster, 1-b] to induce feelings of discouragement in
        • As in: Man, it sure is frustrating when you're stuck at stumble-level condition and you try to walk through an indoor area, getting shoved into and stuck on the vast majority of objects on the floor. It makes me want to stop playing instead of attempting to overcome it!
      • Immersion: [Merriam-Webster, a] absorbing involvement
        • As in: Man, it sure does make me realize I'm playing a game when my character suddenly gets swung around 10 yards in any given direction at up to 20 mph every few seconds like a marionette

 

To be clear:

As a stylistic point, I /like/ the stumble effect, even if I think it should be dampened in amplitude to be more realistic. I don't think it should be removed, I think its timing should be changed. Pseudo-control of your player character simply causes frustration at the gameplay mechanic instead of increasing tension. It does not feel satisfying to overcome. Losing agency over your character disconnects you from the game, and as such causes immersion to be jarred and frustration to be had.

 

Posited solution:

  1. Show stumbling as a post-zero condition effect. Hide the UI (helps reinforce that you've lost and are no longer in control) and have the character stumble around for a few seconds until fading to the long dark. If you think removing pre-death stumbling is 'OMG make it EZ', then reduce the maximum condition you can have by the amount that stumbling requires.
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

:D I wasn't talking about you personally, but rather my views on these kind of subjects in general.

38 minutes ago, Archonax said:

This point is a fantasy...
Another fantasy...
...you must not know the meaning of words.

I'm not going to engage with this kind of thing... especially considering that I was calling back to previous discussions that had nothing to do with you, but simply encapsulate my view of similar subjects.  I don't think personal insults are necessary or productive.  I don't think I said anything that was referring to you personally.  :) 

:coffee::fire:
We don't agree (at least about this particular subject), and that's okay.

I've said my peace, and that's all I came to your thread to do.  I'm not out to change your mind... but I am offering my perspective (which just happens to be opposite of yours) mainly for the benefit of others who may read it.  I think having differing opinions on any particular subject is better than just having echo chambers where folks only come to agree about things :)

  As I've also mentioned before:

On 12/21/2019 at 6:21 AM, ManicManiac said:

I love the discussion of ideas and the exchange of points of view.

I've made posts in the wishlist subforum in the past as well, but the longer I played the more I came to understand (or at least by my estimations) and respect why things were implemented the way they were.

To be clear, there have been ideas here that I have very much supported... the other's I have just weighed in on with my perspective.  I think it's equally valuable for any developer to hear from both sides of an idea or opinion.  I seem to have a much different perspective on the game as a whole than a lot of people on the forum.  Which I suppose has caused some to assume I'm against changing anything... which is not the case.  In the end, I trust Hinterland to do what's best for their game... so if they see fit to change things, then great.  I've not objected to anything they've changed, even though I've not always agreed with the changes... I've accepted them and took the challenge of adapting my playstyle to overcome those decisions I initially didn't like.  I didn't fuss about it... I chose to embrace it, and as a result I've become much happier with the game.

I do feel (that at least to some degree) I understand and can appreciate the choices that Hinterland has made with their game... and I think a voice expressing that is not harmful, but provides a counter balance to all the voices who do what to change things based on their own personal preferences.

I don't condemn other's for their opinions, I just don't always agree with them because I try to understand and appreciate why Hinterland makes the choices they do.  To me player choice is more powerful at adjusting the experience than wanting to change the game itself.

 

Edited by ManicManiac
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Nice try, but I'm not going to engage with this kind of thing... especially considering that I was calling back to previous discussions that had nothing to do with you, but simply encapsulate my view of similar subjects.  I don't think personal insults are necessary or productive.  I didn't think said anything that was referring to you personally.

I don't recall insulting you -- you may want to reread my earlier reply.

 

7 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Here we go again... "Immersion Breaking." ¬¬

I do think you have to admit that quoting a word I used (immersion-breaking) and then copy-pasting numerous posts you've made about how people often misuse the words is a bit pointed. While I will agree with your point in some respects, it is inapplicable to my post here.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Archonax said:

I do think you have to admit that quoting a word I used (immersion-breaking)

I can appreciate how that could be taken... and for that I can apologize.  My apparent exasperation is with what I feel is a tendency for many folks to over use that term to describe things they simply don't like.  I did not mean for it to feel like I was directing it directly at you (but more at how the term as lately seemingly been misunderstood, in my opinion)... I acknowledge that I could have been better at articulating that.

:coffee::fire::coffee:

Edited by ManicManiac
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I can appreciate how that could be taken... and for that I can apologize.  My apparent exasperation is with what I feel is a tendency for many folks to over use that term to describe things they don't like.  I did not mean for it to feel like I was directing it directly at you (but more at how the term as lately been misunderstood, in my opinion)... I acknowledge that I could have been better at articulating that.

:coffee::fire::coffee:

No worries -- I'll freely admit that tone can be difficult to convey over text. If anything came across as an insult, be assured that was not the intent.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Archonax said:

You're being deliberately obtuse. The statement you quoted was in direct response to ManicManiac's comment where he states that the stumble mechanic causes a positive experience when overcome, re:

There's nothing obtuse about it.  This isn't the first game to employ some sort of malfunction mechanic when you're near death.  I'm thinking in particular of the Wing Commander games, where if your shields are down and your armor takes a pounding, systems in your ship start to blow out.  Like maybe you're unable to turn left because a maneuvering thruster is destroyed.  It's no different here--you're near death and are starting to lose control because you are literally dying.  It's done quite well.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/8/2020 at 8:38 PM, Archonax said:

Also -- there needs to be a dampener on the distance the stumble can take you -- in a blizzard you can easily 'stumble' 10-15 yards at faster than a sprint. It's ridiculous.

mostly, i believe the stumble should not be removed, but i definitely agree with this statement. for example, On multiple occasions i have died as i was about to enter a building or even as i was about to lie into a bed and recover from 1-3% condition, just because my character throws himself in one direction or the other away from where i am trying to go. the stumbling is a realistic and immersive mechanic, but the distance it takes you is not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stumbling starts at 15% condition.

 

In the meantime, I've been simply deleting my game save if I reach the point of stumbling and am not already somewhere I can begin restoring condition immediately. While dissatisfying and it means my plays don't get added to the journal, it's keeping me from quitting entirely out of frustration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now