Map orientation

[Dahart]

Am i wrong or is the map not oriented north? I mean up on the map doesn't seem to be north.

[ManicManiac]

I've found that map orientation *when compared to the "world" map does have ...inconsistencies.  I've mentioned it before so I will just echo it here.

On 11/4/2019 at 1:32 AM, ManicManiac said:

It's silly, I know... but it does bother me a little bit, but it seems the orientation of the maps doesn't jive with the movement of the sun and the alignment of the cardinal directions (in relation to each region and the overall world map).  I can never trust that "sun rise east"  is going to correspond to the map in the way it appears the region should orient (at least in relation to the movement of the sun compared to all the other regions - there doesn't seem to be that consistency at the "world map" level).  As an old land nav-er it just bothers me... it doesn't affect gameplay or the experience at all so ultimately it's not an issue (since it's easy to say it's only locally significant anyhow... and you'd be right)  ...it's just the one little thing that bugs me.

On 11/4/2019 at 4:28 AM, ManicManiac said:

I'm specifically talking about if you were to make a simple "day arch" (a line representing the path the sun takes a cross the sky at any given latitude) and draw it across the world map... that is roughly how the sun should move across the sky in each respective region; from that base reference point.

I wasn't talking about the orientations of our charcoal maps with respect to the "world map" because that is not really relevant (as maps can be drawn from any number of different perspectives - that's why most maps have a Compass Rose on them)...  I was referring to the astronomical orientation.

And again... I'm not making a complaint per se, as it doesn't impact gameplay or the experience.  It's just something that stood out to a person who has done a lot of Land Nav.    And as others have mentioned, it was indeed a bit disorienting/jarring when I played way back in the earlier days (before I got familiar with the landscape itself).  However, I quickly acknowledged it and accepted that (to date) the sun is only really locally significant to each region individually...  Once one accepts that, then we can still easily use it to assist navigation within each region just fine. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by ManicManiac

[ajb1978]

This topic comes up often enough that I have this file on my desktop ready to go lol.  A while ago I used the lakes and waterways as indicators for how to rotate and resize the regional maps, and very crudely (MS Paint) overlaid them over the world map.  One interesting thing to note is that when you transition from Forlorn Muskeg to Mystery lake, you have a paradox.  This is best tested early in the morning when the sun is low in the Eastern sky, you can tell that the Forlorn Muskeg map is laid out correctly.  However when entering Mystery Lake, the sun is now 180 degrees behind you, indicating that down on the regional map is actually East, and up is West.  However its orientation on the world map indicates the opposite.

[Ahatch]

So Bleak Inlet is just west of Coastal Highway then so if one was to get along the coast past the destroyed lighthouse I would arrive near Bear Creek. 

[Dahart]

Interesting things about the world map and the orientation about the local maps within it.

I was originally talking about the local maps though. That really bothers me that they are not pointing north upwards and it makes them even more worthless. They are already pretty crappy as they are.

I seem to remember an ingame hint that said something like "use the position of the sun for orientation". Makes sense. From the time of day and position of the sun i can derive roughly where north is, but what good is that if i don't know north on my local map??

[ManicManiac]

@Dahart

Well, like I was taking about... you can still use the sun for orientation (but it's only locally significant due to some odd orientations of the regions in relation to each other not being consistent), because of this it doesn't mater that the map is not oriented in the way folks like to assume (i.e. the top of the map is north).

I actually don't mind these inconsistencies as much as anymore because it's implied that our maps are hand crafted.  Them not being perfectly continence also adds a little bit of challenge to keeping track of our actual position in the surrounding environments.  So... while it used to kind of bug me, once I learned to accept it and contextualize against in-game lore (so-to-speak), it stopped bothering me.  I was then able to appreciate the unique challenges that arise from the inconsistencies that I once felt bothered by.

Edited April 4, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Dahart]

On 4/5/2020 at 1:07 AM, ManicManiac said:

@Dahart

Well, like I was taking about... you can still use the sun for orientation (but it's only locally significant due to some odd orientations of the regions in relation to each other not being consistent), because of this it doesn't mater that the map is not oriented in the way folks like to assume (i.e. the top of the map is north).

 

I don't understand. How can i line up the local map to my surroundings, when i don't know what's north on it?

[UTC-10]

The problem of map orientation seems to stem, in part, from the fact that the various regional maps were put into the game before they got stitched together to form the world map.  Hinterland has tried to get sun rising in the East and setting in the West to be consistent but that does not work right for all maps. 

Probably why Hinterland won't implement a compass. North, South, East, and West can change depending on what map you're on. 

 

[peteloud]

If you had survived from the crash of a light aircraft and didn't have a compass you probably would not know which was north when you draw a rough map.   If you were drawing a rough map based upon the view, north would not necessarily be at the top of the page.

I find it irritating that the charcoal sketches are not detailed accurate maps with compass data and GIS positioning, but if I was an air crash survivor I'd have to survive in an difficult situation not of my choice.

[ManicManiac]

14 hours ago, Dahart said:

I don't understand. How can i line up the local map to my surroundings, when i don't know what's north on it?

Because due to the inconsistencies in map orientation, the sun (and by extension cardinal direction) becomes only locally significant (meaning that it only matters for the region your are in).

Here's how you tell what direction North is... when your map doesn't tell you which direction North is:
You look at the sunrise in the morning - that's "East"
You look at the sunset in the evening - that's "West"

Based on this, it's really easy to determine North and South in relation to East and West.

Most people are aware that a compass rose looks like this:
        N    
W            E
        S

It is important to note that north is not always "up"...  that assumption frustrates me, as it would seem to me like common sense.  The order is what's important, not the orientation.

In other words...  if you look at sunrise or sunset in whatever region you're in.  That's East and West respectively.  So... if your map is oriented in a different way your compass rose in relation to your charcoal map might end up looking like this:

        E   
N            S
       W

And that's still fine... wherever your sunrises is East... so your can intuit the rest no mater where you are and no mater what way your map is oriented with respect to "north" or it's relation to the other regions (hence the term "locally significant")... because again, it's really inconsistent when compared to the Great Bear map.

I genuinely hope that helps give you some idea... I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending... I really am assuming you were asking the question in earnest, and trying to be helpful.

Edited April 6, 2020 by ManicManiac

[hozz1235]

I've played enough to where I can orient myself pretty well...with one exception...PV - that darn map still messes with my head!

[Dahart]

22 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Because due to the inconsistencies in map orientation, the sun (and by extension cardinal direction) becomes only locally significant (meaning that it only matters for the region your are in).

...

I genuinely hope that helps give you some idea... I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending... I really am assuming you were asking the question in earnest, and trying to be helpful.

Thank you for your lengthy explanation, but i already know all of this 😮

And yes, i was asking in earnest, but i probably did not make myself clear. I am NOT talking about inconsistencies between regions, i actually don't care about that. My original post was refering to the local map to begin with. Lets forget about the world map.

My problem is, as i wrote earlier, that if the local charcoal map doesn't tell me where north is (and i couldn't care less where that is, top, left, right, or bottom), i don't know how to line that map up with the surrounding i am standing in (where i can tell where north is from the sun, just as you described).

Lets make an example. I want to stress that it is simplified and usually is more complex, but for the sake of illustration, lets keep it simple:

I am standing on a straight, frozen river, It shows up on my charcoal map as a straight line going from left to right.

I am looking along the direction of the river and see the sun setting right above the river. Therefore, this is east. Therefore i also know west, north and south.

But on my map, when i try to match it up with what i just saw looking around, left OR right is east. Which means top OR bottom is south.

A bit earlier, i have sketched a shelter on my map as well, and it is shown above the river. I want to go there because its getting cold.

So where should i go? North or south?

And usually, because the maps tend to miss alot of local detail, you don't even have a clear landmark like the river in my example, which you could put in relation to the sun.

 

[Dahart]

Oh wait i forgot:

If i want to know where to go, i can always go in the direction the wind is coming from. That is usually right.

[Aurimas]

I still think there should be a compass.. it shouldn't work durring aurora and maybe sometimes be difficult to use without it.. but it should be there

[Dahart]

Oops, just realised i made a mistake. I am facing West of course, when i see the sun setting, not east. Sorry, but english is not my first language.

 

8 hours ago, Aurimas said:

I still think there should be a compass.. it shouldn't work durring aurora and maybe sometimes be difficult to use without it.. but it should be there

 That would not solve the problem i presented in my example. You already can tell n,s,w and e from the sun, at least kind of. But it would make a nice find, as an uprade so to speak. Just as you can find better clothing or tools that you don't have at the beginning which increase your chances of survival. So would a compass. Think foggy weather, no sun, no orientation. From that perspective i like the idea. Its a roleplaying element because it helps to improve your character.

[Gun Tech.]

Yeah, directions are random, there are even neighboring regions that are 180° from each other It's a bit weird, because to make it correct you just have to adjust a few rotation numbers for the regions. I wouldn't be surprised if the creatives dismissed the devs with, "because then sunsets are not as beautiful!" So now instead they probably have a big headache with many adjustments and counter-rotations to make the regions work across Story Mode, Challenges and Sandbox, and making it all work with the maps. If a compass were added, it would only have to have an adjustment for each region, i.e. lie to you to fix it. But then, the 2D maps in the game would probably have to be adjust with a third factor because north wouldn't be north.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Gun Tech.

[ManicManiac]

10 hours ago, Gun Tech. said:

If a compass were added...

I would definitely not be in favor of compasses.

  Here's why:

On 11/21/2019 at 10:15 PM, ManicManiac said:

And in my opinion, the best thing for new players is to learn how to navigate through the world by way of paying attention to their surroundings and basic orienteering techniques (since it seems to me that was part of the point of there not being a compass to begin with).

I respect Hinterland's creative/design decisions for their game.  It seems clear that they don't feel that a compass is necessary for players... and from my personal experience, I agree.  It's not difficult to figure out how to orient and navigate without such things in this game.

I see no need whatsoever for a compass in this game, and I think it would take away far too much from the game were it to be added.

On 9/13/2019 at 11:48 PM, ManicManiac said:

Besides, outside of the reason laid out by the lore... not being able to have a compass is also wonderful in this game because it causes the player to get creative and use other methods for learning about and navigating through the wonders of Great Bear Island.  Having to pay attention to our surroundings and what we're doing is of primary importance in this game.

All in all, I'd say a compass is really just not need.

On 5/28/2019 at 12:36 AM, ManicManiac said:

It's been often discussed and I think (from a lore perspective) that a compass would probably not work properly anyway in the wake of the Geo-Magnetic Event that causes the Aurora (considering that a compass needs the earth's geo-magnetic field stable to work properly regardless of polarity - because after all even if the poles switch, all you would do is paint the other side of the needle red  ).

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Dahart]

The thing about the compass not working due to the geo-magnetic event causing the plane crash in the first place is a good point. It could still work when there is no aurora though. And if its a rare find, maybe 1 or 2 in the whole world, it would potentially leave still alot of game time foricing you to orient without one before you find you. IF you ever.

Which brings me back to my original point:

As i mentioned before, even a compas would not help you use the local maps any better. Because you don't know which way you are facing on the map while looking at it.

Nobody bothered to give me a solution to the problem i offered in the example i gave. Which way should i go, north or south?

I just feel like the charcoal maps are a half-baked attempt to help the player. A feature that is lacking potential. The devs gave us the ability to create a map, but then failed to implement how we can use them effectively. Like i said, i am still waiting for an answer to my problem. If you can't use the map in the situation i described, its definitely lacking its potential, isn't? I mean what good is a map for, if not for finding your way?

Oh and just as a side note: Our guy seems to have some kind of local orientation, he just doesn't tell us Because even if you map two disconnected regions inside a charcoal map, in the end when the map is complete, they all connect nicely to each other and don't need to be rotated. Because he knew which way he was facing as he was drawing 😮

[Archonax]

21 hours ago, Dahart said:

The thing about the compass not working due to the geo-magnetic event causing the plane crash in the first place is a good point. It could still work when there is no aurora though. And if its a rare find, maybe 1 or 2 in the whole world, it would potentially leave still alot of game time foricing you to orient without one before you find you. IF you ever.

Which brings me back to my original point:

As i mentioned before, even a compas would not help you use the local maps any better. Because you don't know which way you are facing on the map while looking at it.

Nobody bothered to give me a solution to the problem i offered in the example i gave. Which way should i go, north or south?

I just feel like the charcoal maps are a half-baked attempt to help the player. A feature that is lacking potential. The devs gave us the ability to create a map, but then failed to implement how we can use them effectively. Like i said, i am still waiting for an answer to my problem. If you can't use the map in the situation i described, its definitely lacking its potential, isn't? I mean what good is a map for, if not for finding your way?

Oh and just as a side note: Our guy seems to have some kind of local orientation, he just doesn't tell us Because even if you map two disconnected regions inside a charcoal map, in the end when the map is complete, they all connect nicely to each other and don't need to be rotated. Because he knew which way he was facing as he was drawing 😮

To answer your earlier question, you don't and won't know which way to go in your specific example without the use of a third landmark. If visibility is poor enough that you can't discern a third landmark for reference, then you're just out of luck and have to roll the dice!

[eric4x4]

If we make the assumption that Will is the "survivor" then we already know that Will is an extensively experienced bush pilot who would have exceptional dead-reckoning skills as well as the ability to read, interpret and draw a topographical map. If these were not true, then he would never have been able to start, nor would he be financially able to sustain Jackrabbit Transport.

Just my thoughts.

[Dahart]

2 hours ago, Archonax said:

To answer your earlier question, you don't and won't know which way to go in your specific example without the use of a third landmark. If visibility is poor enough that you can't discern a third landmark for reference, then you're just out of luck and have to roll the dice!

Thats right. And the consequence would be that the charcoal maps should be more detailed to make them more useful.

Alternatively:

1 hour ago, eric4x4 said:

If we make the assumption that Will is the "survivor" then we already know that Will is an extensively experienced bush pilot who would have exceptional dead-reckoning skills as well as the ability to read, interpret and draw a topographical map. If these were not true, then he would never have been able to start, nor would he be financially able to sustain Jackrabbit Transport.

Absolutely. Which brings us back to the idea of adding a marker on the map that points north. For the sake of the argument, it could be any defined direction, but north is the usual marker on a map, so lets go with that.

And i have an idea how to implement that into the game:

Let the player decide for himself what is north on the map! Lets make it a task, don't just give it to the player without effort. While having the map open, there could be an option to place an arrow symbol and rotate it so it points in the direction you think is north. You should be able to change that as often as you like of course, should you realize your assumption was not correct (or not correct enough).

You could also have a mechanic where you can "mark north" on your map by simply facing north in the game and then pressing a button /choosing and option?

 

[Old Hermit]

I'm not in favor of implementation of compass, BUT alternatively give us better ways to orient ouselves, as examples:

1 - Stars (mentioned elsewhere i know)

2 - Draw our own maps (i know it is impossible, or at least very hard to implement, although would be a great feature). Sometimes i feel that i can draw a better sketch with closed eyes

3 - More accurate/detailed charcoal drawing. Too many meaningful spots missing. I see an interesting mark (a ruined house or boat dock) and pull the charcoal and start to survey the surroundings, just to see that it was not included on the sketch. Sometimes it lacks even road indication. sad

4 - The sun itself, and i know that there are some issues involved.

5 - Crows migration (IDK if there is already a pattern on fligh directions, i'm including it here just for don't knowing that)

I know that wind can change directions regularly, so ot is a discarded option.

I think that anyone in a survival situation, with no compass or gps to orientation, would want to use every single visual and non-visual resource to avoid getting lost (even further). Of course i know that it's a game, not real life, but TLD is about resilience, not?

[eric4x4]

Frankly, I'm not even interested in a compass either, since the very premise of the game is a geomagnetic storm which would FUBAR a standard compass, but as we have seen in several of the challenges, it is clearly possible to place a directional marker on the map to show which direction the survivor is facing. I would love to see that as an option for the game to have that on.

[acada]

On 4/7/2020 at 12:46 AM, hozz1235 said:

I've played enough to where I can orient myself pretty well...with one exception...PV - that darn map still messes with my head!

Me as well. I found workaround. I made screenshot of the map and rotated it. The North on the map is on the LEFT side. After that I was able to orient on this area. After while my head accomodated this rotated map and I dont need it anymore.

[Muestereate]

Ahhh, this is the clue that tells us what really happened. The Earth was" knocked of it's axis" and the issue between the Muskeg and Mystery Lake is that the muskeg is now a pole. Probably still what we would call the Northern pole but so far of Solar orbit North that it is not the coldest. I guess the pole is actually inside the tunnel.

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Muestereate