Exio

Double-barreled Shotgun [in-depth analysis]

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Posted (edited)

Okay! I'm new here! Okay, Hinterland has said they're skeptical of adding new weapons for fear of turning TLD into less of a brutal survival game and more into a wildlife shooter. I understand--and I love the game as it is--however, I feel this should at least be considered. I've put quite a bit of thought into this as well, so I'm not just spitballing "hey let's add a shotgun because shotgun cool." As you'll see, I'm designing this addition not to be overpowered in any way.

The double-barreled shotgun would be a close-quarters self-defense weapon, designed almost solely to scare wildlife away. Loaded with 2 12-gauge buckshot rounds, it is extremely effective at killing small targets like rabbits or crows*, albeit the former with significant damage. Wolves would be much more likely to scare off when hit/shot at by the shotgun, with severe damage to the available meat, hide, and gut reserves on the carcass should it die. It will be possible to scare a moose with the shotgun, but only at very close range (~10m); additionally, it will be quite ineffective at killing them, taking 3-4 shots. Bears will be slightly more likely to scare by shotgun rounds, but the shotgun is completely incapable of killing them.

 

The model could be based off a very simple double-barrel--like the Stoeger Uplander Field shotgun (pictured below). It's a very cheap yet reliable side-by-side double barrel, perfect for hunting birds. Its MSRP is something around $500, making it well within reach of the salary of an isolated fisherman, miner, or survivalist on Great Bear.

uplander-field-shotgun.thumb.png.24ec338252a4fe90166444fc74f48f8d.png

STATS

Weight: 7.5 lbs./3.5 kg. (full) // (sawed-off) 4.5 lbs./2 kg.

Capacity: 2 rounds, which can be individually loaded

Reload speed (empty): approx. 5 sec. at level 1 Shotgun skill

  • Reload speed (1 spent): approx 6 sec. at level 1 shotgun skill (as it would take more dexterity to not eject the unspent shell)

Recoil: extremely high; would require significant stabilization after first shot to reacquire target // (sawed-off) No ADS ability, extremely high spread

Damage (vaguely):

  • Capable of killing wolves ~15m (~5m sawed-off), but is much more likely to merely scare them and all nearby wolves off
  • 2 shots will scare a bear, but it is highly ineffective (if not outright impossible) to kill a bear with any number of shots
  • 1 shot ~15m will scare a moose, ~3-4 will kill
  • Capable of shooting crows out of the sky, rendering them able to be harvested for bird meat (approx. 4-5 lbs./1.8-2.2 kg.), crow feathers (2-3 per crow), and guts (1 per crow)
  • Can kill rabbits from ~20-30m (chance of hitting reduced significantly at these ranges), but any closer would render the creature ruined

Condition: 1 shot will drain the condition by approx. 2%.

Critical hits: shotguns will not critically hit (as they would technically shoot 4-6 "projectiles" at once, this would be very hard to calculate).

EFFECTS ON ANIMALS

Crows:

  • It would be possible to shoot circling crows out of the sky with the shotgun*. Doing so would leave a crow carcass, able to be harvested for bird meat, crow feathers, and 1 gut

Rabbits:

  • Shooting a rabbit from closer than 20m will significantly damage meat, hide, and gut quality; less meat will be obtained (<2 lbs./1 kg.) and hides and guts will be at a much lower quality when obtained

Wolves:

  • Wolves will be significantly more likely to scare when the shotgun is fired near them, especially when at them
  • Unlikely to kill from >20m away, moderate chance to kill <10m => 20m, and high chance to kill <10m; however, carcass will be significantly damaged the closer the wolf is when killed (less obtainable meat, hide and guts damaged or ruined)

Timberwolves:

  • Timberwolves will not individually scare by shotgun hits, but their morale meter would be reduced much faster by successful hits on the pack
  • Carcass quality would remain similar to normal wolves should a timberwolf be killed by the shotgun

Moose:

  • It will be possible to scare moose with shotgun hits, especially when <10m away. However, it will be rather ineffective at killing them, taking 3-4 shells.
  • The same damage concept applies to moose, with close-range kills damaging meat, hide, and guts
  • As it would take 3-4 shots to kill a moose, a moose solely damaged by the shotgun would have no available hide or guts to harvest, and ~50% less meat on the carcass

Bears:

  • Bears will be somewhat more likely to scare if hit by the shotgun from <15m away. However, it will be nearly impossible to kill a bear with only the shotgun, as their hides and skin are so thick the low-velocity buckshot would be rendered nearly useless against them
  • If a bear is killed later after being hit by the shotgun (e.g. scared by shotgun, then followed up with rifle rounds), the hide will be at a sub-optimal quality

Shotguns will bleed wolves, but only wolves (as rabbits and crows* would die instantly, moose cannot bleed, and bears would be unharmed by it).

Shotgun Skill

The addition of the shotgun would obviously require a skill based on the weapon. Training the shotgun skill would require successful hits of animals with it, OR successful flees of moose or bears. One could also find and read the Flying Game Quarterly research book, taking 5 hours to fully research and granting 10 points in the skill.

Level 1:

  • Basic shotgun skill
  • 7% chance of affliction Recoil Sprain after firing, causing pain in the right arm for 4 hours

Level 2:

  • Reload speed decreased by 1%
  • Wolf fear chance increased by 5%
  • Moose fear chance increased by 2%
  • Bear fear chance increased by 1%
  • 6% chance of Recoil Sprain
  • Condition gained from repairing increased by 2%

Level 3:

  • Damage increased by 5%**
  • Reload speed decreased by 3%
  • Wolf fear chance increased by 7%
  • Moose fear chance increased by 4%
  • Bear fear chance increased by 2%
  • 5% chance of Recoil Sprain
  • Condition gained from repairing increased by 3%

Level 4:

  • Damage increased by 10%**
  • Reload speed decreased by 5%
  • Wolf fear chance increased by 9%
  • Moose fear chance increased by 6%
  • Bear fear chance increased by 3%
  • 3% chance of Recoil Sprain
  • Condition gained from repairing increased by 4%

Level 5:

  • Damage increased by 15%**
  • Reload speed decreased by 7%
  • Wolf fear chance increased by 12%
  • Moose fear chance increased by 8%
  • Bear fear chance increased by 5%
  • No chance of Recoil Sprain
  • Condition gained from repairing increased by 5%
  • Ability to use sawed-off shotgun as defense item against wolf attacks

 

The Sawed-off Shotgun

Perhaps the most popular gun of errant cowboys and ne'er-do-wells in banditry games and movies, the double-barreled shotgun can be, at any time, reduced down to a baby version of itself with a hacksaw, reducing the barrel length down to the foregrip and taking off the end of the stock, rendering it closer to a simple pistol grip. This action would take approx. 20 minutes in-game to complete and would be irreversible. There are significant tradeoffs to doing this, by no means making it better or worse than its long-barreled counterpart.

Sawed-off Shotgun Stats:

  • Weight reduced to 4.5 lbs./2 kg.
  • No ADS ability
  • Reload speed unaffected
  • Damage range decreased (animals must be <10m away for significant effect)
  • Weapon can be used in wolf struggles; selecting it will, after a short struggle, shoot the wolf and kill it instantly; carcasses will be ruined if killed like this

 

Conclusion

I think that, with proper balancing (something similar to what I've laid out) and efficient coding (which Hinterland has shown to be good at regarding complexity), the shotgun would be a fun and highly defensive tool for survivors to make quick work of major threats on the island. An extremely powerful self-defense tool that rivals the revolver in protection but significantly lacks in any hunting capability whatsoever, it forces survivors to gauge just how little they want to deal with wolves and wildlife by trading off their hunting rifle (lest they want to carry over 20 pounds/12 kilograms of weapons alone) for pure defense. I'm sure these numbers aren't perfect, but I've done my best to think out something that isn't overpowered but still has a use. If you've gotten this far, thank you for reading, and please let me know what you think!

 

*: as of now, crows can't be killed. Adding this would need to include the ability to interact with crows.

**: I know shotguns fire something close to 30 pellets, but but simplicity's sake, the in-game shotgun wouldn't actually code 30 individual pellets, but something closer to 4-6, with the damage of each pellet increasing nominally per level to add up to a percentage increase.

Edited by Exio
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Honestly, I wouldn't ever use this.  For defense, the revolver is perfect. 1.5kg and can fire off six shots in rapid succession.  For guaranteed scare chance, the flare gun always succeeds.  And carrying both a revolver and flare gun combined weighs less than 3.5kg, even when fully loaded.  I can see no reason why I would carry around a 3.5kg weapon that only has two shots, ruins the hide and meat of whatever you hit, and isn't even a guaranteed scared scare.

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I don't think the game need any more firearms for the time being, atleast not "proper firearms". As of right now the hunting rifle and bow is already good enough to hunt anything that is currently in the game. If more wildlife was added then perhaps my opinion would change but as of right now, I think we have enough proper firearms.

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3 hours ago, DerpyLemon115 said:

I don't think the game need any more firearms for the time being, atleast not "proper firearms". As of right now the hunting rifle and bow is already good enough to hunt anything that is currently in the game. If more wildlife was added then perhaps my opinion would change but as of right now, I think we have enough proper firearms.

Waterfowl and other birds in that region probably would be appropriate for a double barrel shotgun, but I think if we limit it all to birdshot, that would allow you to hunt the gamebirds without making the player OP against wolves, moose, and bear.

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@Exio - nice post. You put a lot of thought into that, probably more than the playerbase here deserves, frankly.   I would like to see a shotgun in the game more or less as you described and would trade the revolver for it.  (along with a reasonable spear and slingshot)

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As far as this weapon actually behaves, she has a lethal range of 30 to 150 hundred yards dependent on what you shooting and what your firing. With 12 gauge buck shot would feel comfortable shooting a black bear at 35~ might not kill it but, it will wound it enough that if it charges i'll git him with my next one and if runs he won't get away. Now if the forest talkers were going to get serious and got some UN slugs or dangerous good 297 1.4G then we could kill him at 100 with out breaking a sweet. Now in game the weapon is full fills the same purpose as the revolver. Revolver light weight, short range weapon effective for skilled for hunting ;rabbits, deer and wolves, effective at scaring away wolves, can be used in struggles to after a short time to end struggle with a chance of killing wolf; high chance for skilled players, can be unloaded into bear for kill same for moose for skilled players. Shotgun short range weapon effective at killing ;wolves, rabbits, deer, reliable at scaring away wolves, bears and moose,can be used in struggles to after a short time end struggle with high chance of killing the wolf. Ineffective against moose and bear. This what I am getting from the opening statement. This shot gun is a lower skill version of the revolver. Now you will probably counter me by saying that there is enough different here that it creates an interesting choice for the player. Weather to sacrifice weight for the reliability the shotgun offers over the revolver. If they don't care about hunting to take the rifle or Shotgun for protection. You aren't wrong but, the very fact that it has to spawn makes this weapon an ill choice add. when ever Hinterland adds an item they have to carefully consider not only how it plays but, how it effects every other item in the game. In order for the loot tables to remain similar if they added this shot gun that would mean they would have to replace of the revolver and rifle spawns with shotguns and since there is only one or two rare revolver spawns in each region that means if hinterland wants you to have a shot at getting a revolver they have to move some other stuff around. I personally think the revolver is over powered and this is just easy use revolver that isn't worth the resources it would take to develop. Also I would just be mad if I found this nearly useless for me weapon instead of a rifle or some shells instead of rifle rounds.

 

     I do think that the with some tuning the damaged meat  and pelt concept could  add some depth and yet not damage the simple nature of the game. Such as if it was minimal  and not made apparent to the player so that new players wouldn't notice so, that by time they realize what is going on they don't feel cheated but, rather simply see this as how fire arms play and by time they understand how to work around the lost or damaged meat they feel like there getting away with something rather then being punished. Let say from experience even when I understand the possibility of say, my arrow hitting the ground and getting deleted or that deer may just happen to run where the play can't reach nothing is more frustrating then losing stuff to chance because, balance. That is the other thing a mechanic like this needs away to be avoided or negated as a significant amount. Also, I would just like to say welcome Exio to the hinterland forums it has been a little while since we got someone with longer thought out posts around here. I recently took a break from the long and when I left it mrs.Milton, Derpylemon, ManicManiac and that guy with the moose portrait. Now it's Derpylemon, ManicManiac, Marrowstone and that guy with the moose portrait.

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HUGE YES from me! I LOVE wood stock Double Barrel Shotguns! WEAPONSSSSS!

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Honestly that's the best weapon idea ive seen

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Yes, its very nice, especially for us who are looking for reliable defensive firearm (which revolver is NOT).

But, remove that sprain after shot, thats stupid. Normal 12/70 buckshot is relatively soft recoil ammo, its not 10/89 supermagnum.

Maxbe single shot instead of SxS would be even more challenging (and better for aiming).

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1 hour ago, Moll said:

Yes, its very nice, especially for us who are looking for reliable defensive firearm (which revolver is NOT).

Why do you think that revolvers are not reliable for defense?

I think wolves, bears and moose will run away even if you miss.

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i would much rather see another improvised weapon or tool before more firearms.  

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If they added a revolver that is irrelevant for this game, then the shotgun is a MUST. Absolute yes, also very well analysis, loved it ^^

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On 3/29/2020 at 6:21 PM, Dum_Gen said:

Why do you think that revolvers are not reliable for defense?

I think wolves, bears and moose will run away even if you miss.

reliable gun means 1 shot = 1 hostile animal mostly instantly dropped. handgun cannot provide that in the most cases. shotgun can do that pretty easily, especially with slugs. 

 

Edited by Moll

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On 1/7/2020 at 8:53 AM, ManicManiac said:

I think we have all the weapons we could possibly need.  (though I am still hopeful the bear spear will still make an appearance in survival in the future --- definitely not a necessity, but since it was spoke of by the Hinterland team... I'm eager to see what they'll come up with for it)

 

On 6/9/2019 at 2:13 AM, ManicManiac said:

Also, it goes back again to that feeling of vulnerability.  If you have too many weapons, you end up feeling like you are safe...on top of the food chain again.  I'd argue that the heart of this game is feeling isolated and vulnerable.  That we don't have everything we need to be on top... that we have to struggle, move carefully, and gauge risk and reward.  I tend to think that adding a more and more weapons will take away from that.  Which is why I don't think we need any more of them.

:coffee::fire: Edited by ManicManiac

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2 hours ago, Moll said:

reliable gun means 1 shot = 1 hostile animal mostly instantly dropped. handgun cannot provide that in the most cases. shotgun can do that pretty easily, especially with slugs. 

 

It sounds more like overpowered gun. Even the rifle is not that powerful.

IMO revolver is kinda perfect from defensive perspective ( I think it could deal even less damage without losing defensive value). You can make dangerous animals run away, so it will protect you. But you need to shoot many times to kill the prey, so it is not useful in offensive.

Another example is flare gun, which is the only "gun" available at interloper. Again, you can deter predators, but it is not very accurate and have only 1 charge at a time, so it is less useful to hunt.

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Its not OP. You have two fast follow up lethal blasts at very close range. But only two, if you have to reload when attacked or miss, you mostly dead. Thats big difference. also it would be much more effective against timberwolves.

it would fit nomads perfectly. They can defend thmeselves more effectively, but with heavier gun.

22 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Also, it goes back again to that feeling of vulnerability.  If you have too many weapons, you end up feeling like you are safe...on top of the food chain again.  I'd argue that the heart of this game is feeling isolated and vulnerable.  That we don't have everything we need to be on top... that we have to struggle, move carefully, and gauge risk and reward.  I tend to think that adding a more and more weapons will take away from that.  Which is why I don't think we need any more of them.

:coffee::fire:

Nonsense. You still die pretty qucikly if unprepared. Also we dont suggest fireamrs which provide huge fire power. Mostly single shot. not semi automatic with detachable magazines, or machine guns.

Edited by Moll

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1 hour ago, Moll said:

Nonsense. You still die pretty qucikly if unprepared.

Nonsense?   No, my statements make perfect sense (both grammatically as well as conveying perfectly legitimate suppositions & ideas) ... just because you don't seem to agree doesn't make it "nonsense." 

Your seemingly combative response doesn't change my opinion.  I think we have all the weapons we could possibly need.  I see no need and no value added by stuffing more firearms into this game.

:coffee::fire:

Edited by ManicManiac

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I see value of shotgun. Blowing off timberwolves. I sux with revolver. I want shotgun which would fit my Nomad style much more. And i certainly dont think that we have all weapons we need. We need more variety of tools to a diverse and rich gameplay.

 

Edited by Moll

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