Campfire and windy conditions

[Makex]

Hello everybody,

i'm not sure is this already been discussed but in my opinion, campfire goes out too fast when wind starts to pick up speed. Suddenly 4 hour burn time is 9-7 minutes. It bothers me so much that there has to be better way to implement fire go out faster in windy conditions. I know that blowing wind provides more oxygen to fire and it makes wood burn faster. Could it be more subtle about burn time going faster without it drop so dramatically. It could burn wood three to six times faster, so 6 hour burn time would be 2-1 hour burn time? And it wouldn't drop to 6h to 1h in second but burn time would start to go faster so you have time to react to it.

Then there is blizzard wind speeds that could put out campfire immediately but wood that you put there before fire going out would remain. If there were 4 hour worth of wood before it goes out it starts from there when you next time light it on fire. There could be even possibility to get some of your unburn wood back when you break down campfire. There are campfires around the Great Bear Island and it would be neat that you could find campfire that contains example 1 hour 15 min worth of wood to burn and you wouldn't need add wood to start the fire.

I know somebody answers that they like the game how it is and there are so many sticks lying around anybody could possibly need for long lasting outdoor fires. That is fine but i think there is a way to make fire go out more predictable manner and not ruin the game experience that now exists.

[manolitode]

Agree, it would be cool with more variation to the campfire mechanic and how fast a fire dies away. It's a really good example of TLD's (sometimes) seamless transitions, campfires reduced to 9min burn time with a sudden gust of wind If wind put out a real fire you would be able to restart it a little later with the same amount of firewood and it would have fit well in the game. I suppose it can be puzzling for developers to decide when to apply and not apply real-life logic in a game, but firewood that vanish into thin air with a gust don't seem all that measured. 

[Makex]

@manolitodeespana I'm glad that you somewhat like my suggestion, fire in this game isn't some little meaningless nuance and it is worth spend some time what could be done differently. That campfire break down function was very nice addition and i wish more functions are coming.

[manolitode]

11 hours ago, Makex said:

@manolitodeespana Fire in this game isn't some little meaningless nuance and it is worth spend some time what could be done differently. That campfire break down function was very nice addition and i wish more functions are coming.

Completely agree, with Hinterland's effort to add details and finesse these last years perhaps this type of mechanic is on a drawing board somewhere. I suppose it would make the game easier, do you have any ideas how that could be counterweighted, perhaps less firewood, branches and sticks generally?  

[Makex]

On 1/16/2020 at 11:24 PM, manolitode said:

Completely agree, with Hinterland's effort to add details and finesse these last years perhaps this type of mechanic is on a drawing board somewhere. I suppose it would make the game easier, do you have any ideas how that could be counterweighted, perhaps less firewood, branches and sticks generally?  

Sorry, i somehow missed this guestion. Yes it makes game little bit easier. Less wood laying around would be good counter measure. While they are at it, they could make option how many pieces of wood you would like to take with you when chopping branches.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Makex

[ManicManiac]

On 1/11/2020 at 10:09 PM, Makex said:

i'm not sure is this already been discussed but in my opinion, campfire goes out too fast when wind starts to pick up speed.

I personally like the fact that as a player we need to pay attention to where and when we put down our campfire.  I like that if we are careless (or unlucky) our campfire gets blown out.  As you said, "fire in this game isn't some little meaningless nuance."  In my opinion, fire is a big part of life in this game.  I think as it is, Hinterland has found a good balance.

Fire is very predictable.  I will try to explain:

• I think the best lessons we can learn from the way it works at present, is that if you are going have to set down a campfire outside... pick the most protected spot you can find.
• Also of note, don't dump all your fuel on the fire... I think it's much wiser to only put on an hour's worth or so.  I say that because we can control how long we sleep for, and if the wind does happen to change direction and we don't catch it before it blows out... then we don't loose much.
• Lastly, the fire doesn't blow out right away... when the wind starts to "blow out" your fire, it gets dropped to something like 8 minutes.  This gives us time to "nurse" the fire.  If you have a good bundle of sticks with you... you can keep that fire going all through the high winds/blizzard by just adding one stick at a time and keeping the fire going.  It's a proven technique and I can confirm it works from my own gameplay experiences.

I just don't see how any of this ruin's the experience for you... all one has to do is pay attention and we find all kinds of helpful little techniques that help mitigate the difficulties we face in the game.

[Makex]

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

I personally like the fact that as a player we need to pay attention to where and when we put down our campfire.  I like that if we are careless (or unlucky) our campfire gets blown out.  As you said, "fire in this game isn't some little meaningless nuance."  In my opinion, fire is a big part of life in this game.  I think as it is, Hinterland has found a good balance.

Fire is very predictable.  I will try to explain:

• I think the best lessons we can learn from the way it works at present, is that if you are going have to set down a campfire outside... pick the most protected spot you can find.
• Also of note, don't dump all your fuel on the fire... I think it's much wiser to only put on an hour's worth or so.  I say that because we can control how long we sleep for, and if the wind does happen to change direction and we don't catch it before it blows out... then we don't loose much.
• Lastly, the fire doesn't blow out right away... when the wind starts to "blow out" your fire, it gets dropped to something like 8 minutes.  This gives us time to "nurse" the fire.  If you have a good bundle of sticks with you... you can keep that fire going all through the high winds/blizzard by just adding one stick at a time and keeping the fire going.  It's a proven technique and I can confirm it works from my own gameplay experiences.

I just don't see how any of this ruin's the experience for you... all one has to do is pay attention and we find all kinds of helpful little techniques that help mitigate the difficulties we face in the game.

What you listed here are valid points and good tips, but i think my gripe with this is how it is implemented. 12-1 hours to 9 minutes in a heart beat. I keep asking "where did the wood i just put there has gone?". Honestly, this isn't that big of a deal as it might seem and i have successfully keep fire multiple times "middle of nowhere" over blizzard. I even remember one time quite good, it was in pleasant valley bit off the road which is between farm house and outdoor buildings, there is bridge and beside that has huge'ish rock and i was between that rock and road covered in three sides and got away with it and end up in farm house without freezing my but off while trying to get there.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Makex
typo

[ManicManiac]

@Makex
While I do see what you're getting at, though as I often say, "Sometimes a video game, just has to video game."
I think it was a deliberate choice to implement it in this exact way, because I think it functions to teach the player that playing close attention is important in this game and that failing to pay attention comes with consequences.  I think this feature of wind-blown fire is really great for keeping a player on their toes...

On Great Bear, everything is a threat... even the wind

Edited February 19, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Makex]

8 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

as I often say, "Sometimes a video game, just has to video game."

You say it so often i have lost count  

Yeah, there are so many threats and only your well thought actions keeps you alive.

[manolitode]

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

• Also of note, don't dump all your fuel on the fire... I think it's much wiser to only put on an hour's worth or so.  I say that because we can control how long we sleep for, and if the wind does happen to change direction and we don't catch it before it blows out... then we don't loose much.
• Lastly, the fire doesn't blow out right away... when the wind starts to "blow out" your fire, it gets dropped to something like 8 minutes.  This gives us time to "nurse" the fire.  If you have a good bundle of sticks with you... you can keep that fire going all through the high winds/blizzard by just adding one stick at a time and keeping the fire going.  It's a proven technique and I can confirm it works from my own gameplay experiences.

Sure, in best possible circumstances an hour worth of firewood will do, but without coal (and sometimes with it) there are plenty of situations where you'd have to add a lot more fuel to stay warm. Let's say you're fighting off cabin fever by sleeping outside and you had to add fuel for 5 hours to stay warm. The wind blows out the fire and takes the firewood with it. Like @Makex I find this a bit too skewed from a logical point of view (notice how I refrained from using the realism argument 😉). While the nursing fire-strategy is efficient it's also a little too odd that a dying fire provides the same warmth as a lively, flaming one. 

11 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I think this feature of a wind-blown fire is really great for keeping a player on their toes...

Would have to agree there, definitely makes it interesting 😄

[Makex]

11 minutes ago, manolitode said:

While the nursing fire-strategy is efficient it's also a little too odd that a dying fire provides the same warmth as a lively, flaming one.

I bet devs thought and conclusion is: Alright then, when it is under ten minutes it provides 1 celcius of warmth to surrounding area.

Please don't do this!!

 

18 minutes ago, manolitode said:

(notice how I refrained from using the realism argument 😉).

 I did  

[odizzido]

I would like to see campfires work a little differently. Sure I can add in a stick every 10mins or whatever to micromanage it to maximum efficiency, but what does that add to the game?

Things I like about the current system:

-I benefit from placing fires in good locations
-Wind can blow your fire out
-Wind can burn through your wood more quickly(this is an understatement)

 

Things I don't like are:

-Wind can burn through 30kg of wood in an instant. This is super black and white.
-We cannot put fires out to save wood if something comes up
-Micromanaging fires to make up for the two points above

 

I think what I would like is if fires had a couple of variables. A fuel amount, and a fuel burn rate. The burn rate can go up and down depending on conditions. I would like it if when the wind is too strong that it blows out the fire, it would leave a certain amount of wood left. The fuel amount could be used later, or the fire could be broken down to give you the remaining wood.

 

 

Honestly micromanaging isn't too much of a bother to me, but I am quite sure I would like it better if it changed as above.

Edited February 19, 2020 by odizzido

[Stone]

Agree with the thrust of @odizzido and others: wind extinguished fires should leave harvestable wood.

While we're here. Test my theory: wind tends to blow in from the direction you're facing (to annoy you!) So tend your fire facing the direction it's sheltered from. 

 

[Jimmy]

I agree with what @ManicManiac said. It's a piece of video game logic that wind can reduce a 12 hour fire to 9 minutes without returning resources, and part of the core strategy of fire maintenance in the game.

However, note that you're not losing all the resources you've spent when this happens. The fire, despite having a lower duration, still gives the same warmth bonus to the surrounding area based on what you've added.

Wind reducing fire duration is needed. This prevents the player simply dropping a big fire wherever they want without consequence. You're given the choice of balancing the warmth or duration of the fire you desire against the possibility of losing the resources you've spent in creating it.

To give an example, in my recent Interloper game I shot a bear as I was travelling along Bear Creek in Coastal Highway. Suddenly I have nearly 40kg of meat that will be wasted in five days if I don't harvest it quickly. The weather was still, but I was on an exposed piece of open ground.

To save matches, I used my torch and almost all of my gathered fuel to start a 2 hour fire and quartered the bear. This was a tactical choice based on my expectation that the weather wouldn't change for at least an hour or two. Typically weather patterns change at most every hour, usually every 2 or 3 hours. This was a success, giving me a pelt and gut, plus bags of meat.

The weather remained calm, so I harvested a pair of 1kg bear steaks and set them to cook for an hour. During this hour, I prepared two more steaks, then went and gathered sticks, dropping my temperature to zero and risking hypothermia. I did this because I knew I'd want more firewood to keep the campfire lit, and instead of adding the sticks when I got back, I simply dropped them next to the fire.

I continued to alternate between adding new steaks to the fire, warming up as I harvested the meat, and gathering sticks when my temperature was full again. Each time I finished cooking the meat, I'd only add enough fuel to the fire to complete the next set of steaks.

About halfway through the cooking process, a blizzard lands. However, I now have a massive stockpile of sticks, and the fire is providing more than enough heat to keep me toasty warm, even though I'm completely exposed in the open. I simply continue cooking through the blizzard, adding one stick at a time whenever the duration of my fire goes down to one minute. I used a dropped cup of cold tea next to the fire as a method of speeding time between each stick so I didn't have to watch the duration slowly tick down.

Because of my tactical choices and preparing myself beforehand while still seizing an opportunity, I was able to complete cooking the bear I'd shot despite spending half the time in a blizzard. My actions were rewarded by the game, and it became a memorable experience and a highlight of the current run.

The Long Dark is about having interesting choices during play. In order to be a choice, there has to be pros and cons of each option. For camp fires, the way you prepare for wind and approach the problem of fire duration dictates the reward you earn from your choice.

[Makex]

On 2/22/2020 at 4:50 AM, Jimmy said:

Wind reducing fire duration is needed. This prevents the player simply dropping a big fire wherever they want without consequence. You're given the choice of balancing the warmth or duration of the fire you desire against the possibility of losing the resources you've spent in creating it.

I never suggested to remove the whole wind effect to fire.

And if you guys think i dump all my wood, sticks and coal in the fire at one go you are on the wrong track. I know that you have to consider wind direction and current weather when placing your camp fire. You have to think ahead when deciding whether or not to make fire at that spot you are currently looking at. If you think nursing fire one stick at a time is the way to go and Hinterland doesn't want to change that, so be it. I can live with that.