Major fundamental problem with TLD


peteloud

Recommended Posts

@jeffpeng I could see them using the news screen, when the game is lauched for the first time, to give new players that option, or advice. Sure.   A little:

"Hello! We are so glad you decided to try The Long Dark. We here at Hinterland suggest new players ease into the game by starting with Wintermute Story Mode, which is not permadeath, like Survival Mode and the various Challenge Modes are. It gives an introduction to the game world, the lore and history of Great Bear Island, a great narrative driven experience, and will help you learn some of the basic mechanics of the game, with the ability to use previous saves, if you make mistakes, or feel that you want to go back and give something another try, to improve your skills in the game. We currently have [X]/5 Wintermute Episodes completed, with (whatever episodes are still in development) to release in the near future. For more information about The Long Dark [Click Here (link to these online forums)]. Thank you again, and welcome to The Long Dark!"

(...with a pleasant screenshot behind the text, possibly Grey Mother and her rifle, lol.)

That could be a nice usage of that news page that they added, it can be ignored or dismissed if a new player chooses to, giving the player the choice to take the advice or not. 

The only issue I see is that some of the mechanics are not the same in Story Mode, as they are in Survival mode and the Challenge Modes, like skill boos and leveling up skills, crafting and unlocking new recipes, Cartography and the way the maps are different between the 2 modes. But folks on the forums here and on Steam are generally willing and happy to help with teaching newer players how these things work (if they ask civilly), allowing for Community building to continue. 

Would that be acceptable? (and tagging @Admin here, so they see the idea, since this is not in the Wish List subforum, and they can talk amongst themselves, and decide if such a thing would work for them.) A whole lot more time and labor efficient for them, I would think, than creating a whole Demo/Tutorial to add to the existing game, and no hand-holding involved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

@ThePancakeLadyI mostly agree. But since they actually did put a tutorial in the game with Story Mode and even expanded on that with Redux .... Why not put in a mention for new players "Hey dawg, you might wanna play a round of Wintermute! It has a great story and also teaches you some of the basics of the game. Also has a blind lady with a rifle."

That's a fair point. I still wouldn't want a 10 step tutorial, and I think the first two Episodes of Wintermute teach you most relevant things in a way that doesn't feel like sitting through school all over again like most tutorials. Also Wintermute teaches you that in a rather safe environment: The difficulty really is forgiving, especially since you can reload after biting the dust.

Basically that's my stance: Direct new players to play Wintermute first and everything should be fine for most people. The deeper mechanics of the game are still subject to discovery, and if one really wants to become a TLD professional quick there are indeed more than enough resources on the interwebs.

The thing is "Directing new players to play Wintermute first" is now directing them to play several hours of a story before even attempting Survival mode.  It  worked when the story was one episode and there were not so many different mechanics in the game; but for players that just want to look up how to, say, get a late-game mechanic like the mill running or determining whether or not they can even use the workbench in that shop to craft something other than bullets, it's not that helpful.  Wiki's are more helpful in this regard;  but as I've already said, there is no actual obligation for the community to keep all that information accurate or current.  It's great that they do, but confusing when they don't... and, in my experience, sooner or later, interest in keeping them up dies off.

No one is compelling players to open a "tutorial" section.  They are free to view Youtubers and can ignore the signle word "Tutorials" on their menu screen.  It doesn't affect their game unless they want to use it.  No one is asking HL to include precise instructions on every aspect of the game either.  Even putting in a "search" function based on key words to call up individual screen tips on demand would be a big help.  Inserting an archive of the videos Raph makes when new mechanics are introduced would help... If he would expand on them just a little bit - even better... IMHO, of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest jeffpeng

In my opinion @ThePancakeLady's suggestion with the news screen is the best compromise. The whole idea of a tutorial is controversial, and I'm not sure it is worth putting in the work for a dedicated tutorial while it is still a topic to be discussed if it is even needed/desired. They put it into Story Mode, so there must be a reason for it to be there, and considering how TLD "wanted" to be a narrative driven game when it was conceived, and how Survival Mode was kinda-sorta a fluke that worked out really well .... it makes sense for players to direct them to Story Mode.

I can imagine players wanting to learn the game before they dive into the story, only to never actually get the game "taught" in Survival, then, after some experience, start their first Story game and are being taught how to make water - a skill they already have.

And yeah, not everything lines up perfectly between story and survival, that's true. But the core mechanics do: warmth, fatigue, food and water, the need for sleep, how to procure food and how to make water and most importantly: how to basically deal with wolves. Survival just adds a few more mechanics that are not essential, but mostly provide additional depth, and it takes away the map, which can be understood as additional difficulty. But I think someone that played Story Mode EP1 and EP2 (possibly even EP3 because why not?) will be well equipped to survive Voyageur long enough to figure out the rest.

23 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

The thing is "Directing new players to play Wintermute first" is now directing them to play several hours of a story before even attempting Survival mode. 

The thing is that TLD, as aforementioned, is Story Mode first. The game advertises with having a rich narrated story line baked into a survival experience. It is most likely that new players come for that first, and not for Survival.

I really can't fault this approach as much as I try to see the flipside of it. I'm totally fine with that the players get the basics in Story Mode, which they "need" to sucessfully figure out the rest themselves in Voyageur, before they can move to either custom games or other "harder" game modes. And all at the benefit of putting in nothing more than a news screen. It doesn't get much simpler.

Edited by jeffpeng
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest jeffpeng

Another part is that the player experience is basically the progression curve you have in other games. If you know how to, you can achieve a lot with surprisingly little resources. If you don't know how to, all the stuff in the world won't help you. For example before I actually tried As The Dead Sleep I didn't think it possible to do this challenge in under 30 days. My first try was 16 days, my second 6, my eleventh 2 and a half. Just because I learned stuff (and had a lot of luck).

And that's how you "progress" in TLD's survival mode. If you give players a 10 hours long run down of everything from making water to successfully optimizing bullet yields at the mill .... you take away a lot of that. I would even argue that taking to the Wikis, looking up maps and watching streamers takes away a lot of what makes the game great. My first time in TWM it took me three weeks of living off the land to find my way to the summit. Now that I know how I'm up and down the mountain in 2 days. It took me 30 ingame days to find out of HRV after starting a game there. Now I'm in and out ticking key loot locations in two, maybe three days.

Bottomline: a lot of what makes survival a compelling experience is to figure out how to survive. I can see how dying the first 10 games to wolves with no idea how to deal with them might be frustrating (that's how my first games of TLD went back in the day), but once you have the absolute basics .... you should be on your own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

Bottomline: a lot of what makes survival a compelling experience is to figure out how to survive. I can see how dying the first 10 games to wolves with no idea how to deal with them might be frustrating (that's how my first games of TLD went back in the day), but once you have the absolute basics .... you should be on your own.

Yes, I agree. And in fact, what I was trying to suggest was to have just a mild introduction to the absolute basics, not "The Long Dark Survival Course in 35 Practical Lessons". What experienced players of this game tend to forget is many basics they take for granted may not be that obvious for new players.

Example: this is an excerpt from a chat with an acquaintance (let's call him Bob) who bought the game after seeing how enthustiastic I was about it and after seeing many screenshots I had taken:

 

BOB: Okay, I found some clothes. The guy complains he's cold but he seems to hold on. The parameters here say he's "parched" though!

ME: Do you have water in inventory?

BOB: No. Where do I get it?

ME: You can *make* water. You start a fire (you need tinder, some matches, and some fuel like sticks or logs) and then you can use the recycled can to melt snow.

BOB: I got matches, sticks and "reclaimed wood". Shit, I threw the can away.

ME: Haha, why!

BOB: I figured who needs an empty battered can!?

 

I still believe an introductory video that covers the basics would help guys like Bob a lot. How to make water. How to start a fire and what you need. A few essential items you should look for first when you start a game. A brief overview of the weapons available. A brief overview of the dangers. An orientation briefing, not a survival manual.

 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Morrick said:

Yes, I agree. And in fact, what I was trying to suggest was to have just a mild introduction to the absolute basics, not "The Long Dark Survival Course in 35 Practical Lessons". What experienced players of this game tend to forget is many basics they take for granted may not be that obvious for new players.

Example: this is an excerpt from a chat with an acquaintance (let's call him Bob) who bought the game after seeing how enthustiastic I was about it and after seeing many screenshots I had taken:

 

BOB: Okay, I found some clothes. The guy complains he's cold but he seems to hold on. The parameters here say he's "parched" though!

ME: Do you have water in inventory?

BOB: No. Where do I get it?

ME: You can *make* water. You start a fire (you need tinder, some matches, and some fuel like sticks or logs) and then you can use the recycled can to melt snow.

BOB: I got matches, sticks and "reclaimed wood". Shit, I threw the can away.

ME: Haha, why!

BOB: I figured who needs an empty battered can!?

 

I still believe an introductory video that covers the basics would help guys like Bob a lot. How to make water. How to start a fire and what you need. A few essential items you should look for first when you start a game. A brief overview of the weapons available. A brief overview of the dangers. An orientation briefing, not a survival manual.

 

I agree... I see absolutely no harm in HL putting up a few basic instructions under a "tutorial" category on the main menu screen.  As I said, they could even just implement a search feature for the random tips that appear on the load screens they already have in the game so that a confused player could call up some help from within the game to answer such basic questions.  That's basically organizing the random tips that are already there in a way that makes them accessible when the player wants to see them or even just to be able to read them if they became distracted while the game was in the load screen and didn't quite catch what it said.  It makes those tips more useful.

I don't see why there is such "controversy" over this.  It does not affect the experiences of more long-term players or players with better intuition who can figure things out for themselves unassisted in any way.

Some players do not want to play the story at all... just as some players don't want to "forced" to play challenges to earn feats.  I don't see where one desire to play one way is valid while the other is not. 

Edited by UpUpAway95
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Total newb here.  I got the game yesterday.  It is hard, but very intriguing.  I don't have the first clue what I am doing.  But I have a lot of survival games that are easy.  I was looking for something challenging, but without zombies.

Can someone tell me where the screencaps when you press F12 go?  I have read around the steam forum, and learned that hires F10 captures go to the desktop.  I can't find the ones I capture with F12.

I'm sure I will have more stupid questions in the future.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, bojo2736 said:

Can someone tell me where the screencaps when you press F12 go?  I have read around the steam forum, and learned that hires F10 captures go to the desktop.  I can't find the ones I capture with F12.

From the Steam Help:

Screenshots of Game

  1. Load the game and navigate or play to the point at which you wish to take the screenshot.
  2. Press F12 (this is the default Screenshot key) to save a screenshot.
  3. After closing the game, Steam's Screenshot Uploader window will appear. Select the Show on Disk button. This will open the folder on your hard drive that has the screenshot(s) for the game.

You can also see the screenshots by select View => Screenshots from the Steam Command Bar

Edited by ProsPex
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Paphalophagus

F8, F9 and F10 are the default TLD screen grab keys that place the screenshot on your desktop.

Screenshots.png.8c08a5bd47b600f0bb39df182cbce8d4.png

F12 is the Steam screen grab key, as described by @ProsPexabove.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
On 12/14/2019 at 8:23 PM, ManicManiac said:

But that's how most things work... the more a person does a thing, the better one gets at it.

  • If we don't like having abundant supplies, then we should refrain from looting the world right off the bat and only go out to get things when the need is serious.
  • If we don't like having a huge pile of meat... then we should only go hunting when we actually need food.
  • If we don't like that our clothes are too warm... then we should tear them up, and use gear that's not as warm.
  • If we think that the higher skill levels make things too easy... then we should not rush/grind to get our skills maxed out (in most cases if we only use a skill when we absolutely have to, it takes a very long time to get to higher levels).

There are plenty of ways we can choose to play the game that will curtail most of the issues you're talking about.

I think this idea all goes back to what I call "issues with late game expectations."  I've mentioned it before in a previous Milton Mailbag, so I'll just echo it here:

It's sad that player has to make game harder by sabotaging himself  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found my way through the game by watching a lot of Youtube play throughs. They helped me understand the game mechanics, and how and what to do. For instance, it was not obvious to me what I was even trying to do i.e., the goal of the game, or aim of it. Pressing 4 to set up a campfire outdoors for instance--I never would have known had I not watched playthroughs. As I have posted elsewhere, I am not much of a gamer, and this is one of my first games to play for instance using WASD to move around, instead of my mouse. That in itself took a lot of getting used to. As silly as it may sound I would not have understood how to use my keys to move about unless I watched a Youtube playthrough or 10.

 

The fact I am still here playing this game speaks volumes to what a great game it is. I really enjoy it. I doubt I will become a gamer on other games-- this one is a unique experience and I am really enjoying it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really think that the OP's concern is one that has to exist if you know how to adjust settings. There is Pilgrim difficulty to help newbies get used to the game. I myself started on Pilgrim and completed story mode that way. It was never an off-putting level of difficulty - in fact too easy. I later re-did story mode on a harder difficulty. So the early punishing difficulty is something you very much do not have to suffer. After some warm up on Pilgrim, even Voyager is not too hard.

Later in the game yes, you get equipped and skilled and the game gets easier... however, I have watched YouTubers like @Hadrianplay on near-Interloper difficulty and by not obsessing about min-maxing everything, he has a really exciting level of challenge and it's not easy to reach 100 days.

I feel like this is only a problem for people not willing to tweak the difficulty for their needs, or players who are on several hundred day runs and are getting bored because it feels too easy... but really they have just completed getting the bulk of the enjoyment from the game. Might just be time to move on to another game, or try the challenge modes, or just wait for the next Story chapter. I don't know any games that don't have that peak where you have mastered the game so it's now very easy. Real life brings constant challenges and growth forever... but wanting that from a game... is a lot to ask. How would a game prevent you from reaching a state of mastery? Add more content endlessly? Come on. *shrug* At the same time if a game was made so you can NEVER master - hooo boy that would be unsatifying to me. Or it would be like a creative sandbox game like Minecraft - about making cool stuff not 'mastering' skills and challenges.

Honestly it's like game devs can never win. Make it too hard - players complain. Make it too easy - players complain. Allow very in-depth difficulty customising - players still not happy. I've never seen a game with such detailed difficulty customising as TLD. The problem is that there are very few core mechanics: stay warm, feed yourself, avoid getting lost, avoid aggressive wildlife. Once you master those, there isn't more to it. True of most games though.

 

Literally the only thing I would change is allow achievements and badge progress on Custom difficulty. I am at the point of Voyager being much too easy but I don't like the volume of wolves in Stalker. I want to do Stalker with fewer wolves - but MOST of my drive to play is to continue my progress on badges and achievements. So I'm kinda stuck.

Edited by Sherri
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now