Major fundamental problem with TLD

[peteloud]

There is a major fundamental problem with TLD.  It starts difficult then gets easier.  Starting with few resources and skill level 1 makes the game difficult.  Once you gain skills, especially when you get to skill level 5 the game is much easier. 

 

I normally play long games, hundreds of game days, so I had forgotten this problem until I persuaded a friend to buy the game and heard of the difficulties he was having.  Seeing that update 1.64 was out I decided to start a new game, Stalker, with one notch fewer wolf spawns.  I am finding this new start difficult in spite of being able to sail along in long Stalker games.

 

I suspect that many people who are new to the game will be put off by the difficulties at the start.  This probably results in quite a few people giving up, regarding it as a no-enjoyment game and passing on their negative views.  It probably affects sales of the TLD.  It could be better for TLD to have a easier start, then have the difficulties build up as players gain more skill.

 

Surely it is in Hinterland's interest to make the game more welcoming to new buyers.

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by peteloud

[stratvox]

I guess it kind of depends on what you mean by difficulties. The main difficulty I find in long games is keeping boredom from making you do stupid stuff that gets you killed.

My long run guy has frostbite because of that. Nearly died that day but I managed to pull the berries out of the fire, as it were. I guess part of my thinking on this is that given that you're starting as someone who's just landed there with nearly nothing, difficult early game and "easy" deep game makes sense. Part of that is whether or not the deep game appeals to you or not... for some people it does (I'm livin' off the land!) for some people it doesn't (I'm bored! Gotta fire up a new one).

I think that's part of the reasoning behind BI; it's there to provide a late game challenge to the players that have been running for hundreds of days, with a big prize at the end (craftable ammunition!) that make it. I'm mostly a bow player rather than using rifles, but I suspect that I'm in the minority for preferring that. I also have hopes that we may get to ability to craft better bows and arrows in the new workshop in the fullness of time. Perhaps also the ability to create new hatchets and hunting knives (not the hand-forged ones!) with the right kinds of materials (sawmill blades for hunting knives and plate steel for hatchets, with fir logs being used for their handles a la the heavy hammer, for example). I'm pretty close to being out of hatchets and hunting knives, and I ran out of whetstones some time back (though I'm sure the new region is going to put that day off a bit), so the ability to create the "manufactured" versions of those tools is a massive win, esp. given the lower wear rate and lower weight of those tools. It could also be an interesting way to permit the introduction of those types of tools into Interloper without completely trashing the balance of the game, because you need to get suited up before you go in there to make them, and all they have to do in the loot tables is to ensure that there's only enough raw materials to make two or three of each item; say one sawmill blade and three steel plates... which are scattered across Great Bear and must be located before you can even consider trying to get those items made. If there are no whetstones, it means you'll need to make the run into the cannery to fix them when you wear them to ruination. It'd be a good way to permit those higher quality tools while maintaining overall Interloper balance by making the player risk timberwolves when they need to fix their tools.

Edited December 14, 2019 by stratvox
clarity

[Fuarian]

The issue isn't that it's hard at the start, it's that it's easier at the end. And the easier it is, the more boring it is. 

[ThePancakeLady]

1 hour ago, stratvox said:

I'm mostly a bow player rather than using rifles, but I suspect that I'm in the minority for preferring that.

Nah, I am too, so is my husband (who plays Loper almost exclusively, vanilla settings, no custom to add a rifle). My son and daughter use both, depending on which region they are in.  I play a nomadic style, traveling a lot, and the bow is just lighter, with craftable ammo (arrows). Though I do use the revolver if/when I find one, to scare wolves away. Not for hunting, though. I don't trust it's limited firepower so much. And I don't play Loper. Never liked it, just not enjoyable for me. 

 

I like your ideas about future crafting of quality tools like hatchets and knives, rather than improvised ones. Good for Stalkers (like me) and Lopers, even Voyageur, if they have a really long run going.

Edited December 14, 2019 by ThePancakeLady
typo fix

[ManicManiac]

9 hours ago, peteloud said:

There is a major fundamental problem with TLD.  It starts difficult then gets easier.

2 hours ago, Fuarian said:

The issue isn't that it's hard at the start, it's that it's easier at the end. And the easier it is, the more boring it is. 

But that's how most things work... the more a person does a thing, the better one gets at it.

• If we don't like having abundant supplies, then we should refrain from looting the world right off the bat and only go out to get things when the need is serious.
• If we don't like having a huge pile of meat... then we should only go hunting when we actually need food.
• If we don't like that our clothes are too warm... then we should tear them up, and use gear that's not as warm.
• If we think that the higher skill levels make things too easy... then we should not rush/grind to get our skills maxed out (in most cases if we only use a skill when we absolutely have to, it takes a very long time to get to higher levels).

There are plenty of ways we can choose to play the game that will curtail most of the issues you're talking about.

I think this idea all goes back to what I call "issues with late game expectations."  I've mentioned it before in a previous Milton Mailbag, so I'll just echo it here:

Quote

I personally don't think there is a late game problem.  I do think there are some issues with "late game expectations."  Which to me is not the same thing.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who will disagree with me (and that's fine) but I just ask those folks hear me out:

I think anyone that has spent long periods of time in isolation/lone subsistence will attest that coping with the mundanities of survival can be your biggest challenge.  There is no "happily ever after" or "congratulations you win!" in survival mode and I would suggest there shouldn't be... After all death is the eventuality, no mater what.  Be it because we've given up, or due to tragic circumstances (most often brought on by our own bad decisions).  I really like the idea that once we get proficient with our survival tasks, that it's really up to us to find creative ways to just live in Great Bear on our own terms, and for how long.  If one really feels the need to face the near death struggle again, we can always start a new run... or walk away from our "comfy" set up and go on a death march to some other desolate zone and work on getting set up again (only this time without the luxury of finding all those lootables - since we already took them all).  

This game is a lot of things to a lot of people and I respect that, this is just a little bit of my point of view.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by ManicManiac
Edited to use general terms

[Fuarian]

35 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

But that's how most things work... the more a person does a thing, the better one gets at it.

• If we don't like having abundant supplies, then we should refrain from looting the world right off the bat and only go out to get things when the need is serious.
• If we don't like having a huge pile of meat... then we should only go hunting when we actually need food.
• If we don't like that our clothes are too warm... then we should tear them up, and use gear that's not as warm.
• If we think that the higher skill levels make things too easy... then we should not rush/grind to get our skills maxed out (in most cases if we only use a skill when we absolutely have to, it takes a very long time to get to higher levels).

There are plenty of ways we can choose to play the game that will curtail most of the issues you're talking about.

I think this idea all goes back to what I call "issues with late game expectations."  I've mentioned it before in a previous Milton Mailbag, so I'll just echo it here:

The need is never serious. That's the point I'm trying to make. You never find yourself in dire situations because once you have the tools (which are god damn everywhere at this point), the weapons (same here) and the clothing (jesus...) then you're good. You can hunker down and survive on fishing or hunting deer or the cans you scavenged. Now you said you can go on a death march to another region, sure you can, but no survivor would realistically leave the comfort of their wooden cabin for a cave in the middle of a blizzard stricken valley. Not every player is capable of doing that either. I want to be FORCED out of my door. A dangerous situation is always more intense when you don't see it coming. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

2 hours ago, stratvox said:

I suspect that I'm in the minority for preferring that

I run bow exclusively, even in Stalker, with a single-shell flare gun as a sidearm ("get out of bear free" - card). The rifle is too heavy, the revolver is too .... bad (with actually having a use now with timberwolves). I keep rifles around in bases in Stalker for when I want to hunt big game, but I actually never really get to use it. By the time I'm interested in actively hunting Moose and Bears I'm usually so good at the bow it doesn't make a lot of sense.

@peteloudI see what you mean and I think you're not totally off with that newer players might be turned away by how unforgiving the game can be at the start. But if you look closely at least Voyageur already has a few mitigations to deal with that. I don't think neccessarily Stalker needs those, and Interloper surely doesn't. 

In general I think the difficulty progression is adequate. As others mentioned before me, albeit not verbatim: you start off as a greenhorn, and 100 days later you are either a survival magician, or you're dead. That makes sense. Plus what would be the inventive of actually putting in those hours reading books if skills didn't really improve your abilites?

Since you are apparently already are playing a custom game maybe mixing an easy start (like permitting indoor starts, higher starting loot allocation, higher loot availability) with Interloper-esque progression features (colder world over time, higher item decay) would fit the bill for you.

[peteloud]

I think that many of you are missing the main point that I was trying to make, (perhaps my fault).  I was trying to see it from the point of view of a new  purchaser of the game.  We old hands, with thousands of game days, who love the game and spend our time posting comments here, have  forgotten what it is like for someone who has never seen the game.

 

If Hinterland wants to expand its sales it must make the game more attractive newbies, such that they greatly enjoy it and encourage their friends to buy it.  Alas, we old hands have paid our money, Hinterlands needs newbies and new sales more than it needs us oldies 🤔.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by peteloud

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, peteloud said:

I think that many of you are missing the main point that I was trying to make, (perhaps my fault).  I was trying to see it from the point of view of a new  purchaser of the game.  We old hands, with thousands of game days, who love the game and spend our time posting comments here, have  forgotten what it is like for someone who has never seen the game.

 

If Hinterland wants to expand its sales it must make the game more attractive newbies, such that they greatly enjoy it and encourage their friends to buy it.  Alas, we old hands have paid our money, Hinterlands needs newbies and new sales more than it needs us oldies 🤔.

 

I agree and have seen newbies become extremely frustrated and quit the game entirely because of the steep learning curve this game has.  In an effort to make things continually more challenging for us oldies who have learned the "tricks" to surviving in this game, it has become more complex and more frustrating for new people to learn the game from scratch.  I think this is a challenge for any game that spends so many years 'in "development."  It's a tough balance for devs to strike... I don't envy them their task; but I do have confidence that Hinterland is aware of such things and will make every effort to continue to also consider new people of all levels who are interested in starting to play the game as well as considering the enthusiastic old timers here.

Edited December 14, 2019 by UpUpAway95

[ThePancakeLady]

1 hour ago, peteloud said:

I was trying to see it from the point of view of a new  purchaser of the game.  We old hands, with thousands of game days, who love the game and spend our time posting comments here, have  forgotten what it is like for someone who has never seen the game.

 

1 hour ago, peteloud said:

If Hinterland wants to expand its sales it must make the game more attractive newbies, such that they greatly enjoy it and encourage their friends to buy it.  Alas, we old hands have paid our money, Hinterlands needs newbies and new sales more than it needs us oldies

We were all newbies once too. Yet, here we still are.

And those of us that are "old hands" now, all learned the game the hard way, harder perhaps than it is now for new players, with the many QoL additions, added tools, clothing, cooking items, and other things that have been added such as the Custom Settings Toolbox, and Accessibility options. 

It never was a game that was supposed to be easy.It never was supposed to be a game that everyone would like, or learn in an hour. It is, and always has been a bit of a "niche" game. As, IMHO, it should be. And Hinterland has managed to have great success with it so far. After as many years as it has been out, I doubt they are expecting to see a huge increase in sales numbers. They may be looking forward to wrapping this game up. getting the last 2 Wintermute Episodes shipped, and moving onto a new, fresh IP. While still supporting this one, for those of us that love it, new or vet players. 

I don't think Hinterland was ever just chasing the money, or sales. I sincerely hope they never do, and that they keep designing the game the way the want it to be, to fit their vision for the experience they want to create for us. I seriously hope they never decide to make the game hand-holy and easy to learn, just to attract "newbies". I hope they will move on to create something new, that attracts those of us who love this game, and I hope that new IP will pull us in like this game did.

[ManicManiac]

3 hours ago, Fuarian said:

I want to be FORCED out of my door.

See that's the thing, if you choose to play to your needs... then you never have much, and what you need actually is nessisarry.
If a player doesn't loot the world right away and only goes out to gather what they need to live, then each trip is out of necessity because waning condition (and the other meters) will make it so. 

Also, as I've mentioned before:

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 8:12 PM, ManicManiac said:

Whether a player decides to hunker down in one spot or stay nomadic should be a player choice, and not mandated by a system that is biased toward trying to force players into particular courses of action... In a story mode it would make sense because it's a guided narrative anyway - the story funnels the player toward specific points and goals... but in sandbox I don't think it would be good idea.  We already have weather/temp degradation and I feel like that works out fine. 

We already have a mechanic that forces player movement from indoors to outdoors (cabin fever).

[text removed for brevity]

My point is that sandbox should be your experience - your story.  I feel that additional mechanics that force players to do certain things in sandbox should be kept to a minimum.

My point here is that we don't need the game to force us out the door... if we play in a more Spartan manner, that will achieve the same end.   

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by ManicManiac

[Fuarian]

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

See that's the thing, if you choose to play to your needs... then you never have much, and what you need actually is nessisarry.
If a player doesn't loot the world right away and only goes out to gather what they need to live, then each trip is out of necessity because waning condition (and the other meters) will make it so. 

Also, as I've mentioned before:

My point here is that we don't need the game to force us out the door... if we play in a more Spartan manner, that will achieve the same end.   

 

Story mode has you chasing a linear objective. I don't necessarily want that for survival mode. I just want something that, doesn't necessarily force you out of the door in a scripted way. But a random chance of an event happening that drastically changes your plans. Not a blizzard, not a wolf encounter, not a sprain, but something like a mass die off of wildlife population, or overfishing, something that keeps you moving and makes it hard to hunker down and just live off massive piles of meat and excessive food. I've found a custom difficulty that works relatively well, but I still want something to force me out into the muskeg let's say to survive. Let's say Mystery Lake has run out of deer for the time being and been overridden with wolves. Off to the Muskeg it is. Otherwise I would never actually go out there for any legitimate reason other than boredom, risking my life for no GOOD REASON. I want to have a reason to do everything. I want every day to be a grind, not knowing whether I'll make it to the next. When it comes to survival, you always want to be on top of everything. And as a result, you'll want to loot everything you can even if you don't need it right away, you'll eventually need it later. 

I can see how some people wouldn't like this though. 

[ManicManiac]

@Fuarian
I can see what you mean, but I still don't think that adding mechanics that would force players to do certain things wouldn't be a good idea.  I mean, sure it seems like it would be ideal for you, but I'm not sure it would be ideal for everyone.  Many of the things you mentioned could just be role played (given a little bit of self discipline).

It is a neat idea to think about (it really is), I just don't think I would enjoy it... at all.

It harkens back to what I posted previously:

• "I really like the idea that once we get proficient with our survival tasks, that it's really up to us to find creative ways to just live in Great Bear on our own terms, and for how long."
• "Whether a player decides to hunker down in one spot or stay nomadic should be a player choice, and not mandated by a system that is biased toward trying to force players into particular courses of action"

For me, "player needs" do a fine job of keeping me moving.  Mostly because I never hunt or gather in excess, and I tend to only keep the bear necessities on me at any given time.  I don't generally hunt unless I need food (I almost never have any sizable resource stashes).  Right now, I'm in the middle of a personal challenge that has all kinds of extra rules and provisos... and that's kept me engaged for nearly six months now  

I see what you are driving at, I really do... but from my point of view, we don't need the game to force us to do things (that I think) we can just choose to do.   

Edited December 15, 2019 by ManicManiac

[Fuarian]

2 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

@Fuarian
I can see what you mean, but I still don't think that adding mechanics that would force players to do certain things wouldn't be a good idea.  I mean, sure it seems like it would be ideal for you, but I'm not sure it would be ideal for everyone.  Many of the things you mentioned could just be role played (given a little bit of self discipline).

It is a neat idea to think about (it really is), I just don't think I would enjoy it... at all.

It harkens back to what I posted previously:

• "I really like the idea that once we get proficient with our survival tasks, that it's really up to us to find creative ways to just live in Great Bear on our own terms, and for how long."
• "Whether a player decides to hunker down in one spot or stay nomadic should be a player choice, and not mandated by a system that is biased toward trying to force players into particular courses of action"

For me, "player needs" do a fine job of keeping me moving.  Mostly because I never hunt or gather in excess, and I tend to only keep the bear necessities on me at any given time.  I don't generally hunt unless I need food (I almost never have any sizable resource stashes).  Right now, I'm in the middle of a personal challenge that has all kinds of extra rules and provisos... and that's kept me engaged for nearly six months now  

I see what you are driving at, I really do... but from my point of view, we don't need the game to force us to do things (that I think) we can just choose to do.   

Well here's the thing, it wouldn't be something that forces you to do anything in particular. It would just be something that makes you do SOMETHING instead of sitting around. I don't hunt in excess either. I only gather what I need. But I'm saying that the game often GIVES YOU what you need AND MORE. 

Even if it's not something that forces you out of the house, there should still be something in place that makes the mundane parts of the game interesting without being solely based on player-made challenges or roleplay stuff. Roleplay stuff is fun, but often hard to do because you're doing stuff like leaving behind valuable supplies (pretending they aren't there or something) which limits survival. 

[dbmurph22]

I love the openness of TLD and the open canvas feeling for player decisions that are driven by needs, but not by scripts.  

To be fair, the game "forces" you to do things pretty quickly, though.  You can find your own way to do it, but the threat of death and the life support issues propping you up are pretty strong impetuses. 

I love hearing how people create their own goals as they get completely settled, like looting every zone and finding every cairn or weird challenges like giving each corpse a wolf hide burial or such.

However, most players will say they love the early game the most.  Not to say those fun late personal goals can't be fun too (and the most fun, for some).

I actually do like the curve of advancing the character though and things getting easier (it's rewarding), so I wouldn't want total reversion to early game.

Why not both in some way?  We can debate which could be standard and which a custom setting.  

[Martin Prchal]

I do not have a problem with TLD being to easy because I do not play it because I want it to be hard. I keep going back to my long Voyager save because it is so relaxing and I don't feel like being on the edge of death all the time. I think there are a lot of players like this that like the relaxing side of the game and do not look for constant excitement while playing. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

12 hours ago, peteloud said:

I was trying to see it from the point of view of a new  purchaser of the game.

I understood that. That's why I mentioned Voyageur already having a few mitigations. And I remember starting to play the game .... and even tho those were rather short games, I frantically enjoyed them. Maybe that's why I feel that there doesn't really need to be more of an easy start in Voyageur. Pilgrim is already so easy that most everyone should be able to play it. Stalker and Interloper should have the bite they have. So I guess... I think it's fine. But that's just my point of view.

Other people might experience it as harsh and unforgiving. And that's what Pilgrim is for - I guess. You can learn the basics of the game in a rather forgiving environment, and then move up if you feel like it. Maybe the one thing HL could do is emphasize this more when selecting a difficulty on a new install. Or that Story mode (at least today) actually is the thing you should play first because it actually has a tutorial.

11 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

And those of us that are "old hands" now, all learned the game the hard way, harder perhaps than it is now for new players,

The earlier versions of the game definitively had more bite, yeah. I played some via the time capsule. No thanks  

 

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 12/15/2019 at 1:47 AM, Fuarian said:

Story mode has you chasing a linear objective. I don't necessarily want that for survival mode. I just want something that, doesn't necessarily force you out of the door in a scripted way. But a random chance of an event happening that drastically changes your plans. Not a blizzard, not a wolf encounter, not a sprain, but something like a mass die off of wildlife population, or overfishing, something that keeps you moving and makes it hard to hunker down and just live off massive piles of meat and excessive food. I've found a custom difficulty that works relatively well, but I still want something to force me out into the muskeg let's say to survive. Let's say Mystery Lake has run out of deer for the time being and been overridden with wolves. Off to the Muskeg it is. Otherwise I would never actually go out there for any legitimate reason other than boredom, risking my life for no GOOD REASON. I want to have a reason to do everything. I want every day to be a grind, not knowing whether I'll make it to the next. When it comes to survival, you always want to be on top of everything. And as a result, you'll want to loot everything you can even if you don't need it right away, you'll eventually need it later. 

I can see how some people wouldn't like this though. 

I've thought about this one long and hard. And after quite a bit of consideration I think this holds some potential. Although it would probably constitute it's own game mode. I guess it would be kinda hell to properly balance, but it's a bit like the random events in Frostpunk when you play Endless mode. You never know what you get. You'll eventually figure out what can happen, but that only makes you prepare for everything that can happen. And sometimes you still fail at that. Now maybe Frostpunk's Endless Mode is a bad example of a game with an interesting lategame. But without those events it would get boring even earlier.

On the other hand ..... I get the feeling that Hinterland wants to make longterm survival somewhat less "likely" than it is today used to be. Which actually runs an opposing trend to implementing late game ammunition crafting. But with all the changes to wildlife, adding vast unpredictabilities to the AIs while also fixing a lot of the possible exploits to abuse pathfinding .... not even mentioning the botched decoy AI .... I have the feeling that a system that would add depth to the lategame wouldn't align with Hinterlands current plans of removing the lategame by thinning out the herd until there is no herd left.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I quite like the idea - personally. I just don't think it would fit the developer's roadmap. And, as you already predicted, the audience for this would be limited.

Edited December 20, 2019 by jeffpeng

[Morrick]

On 12/15/2019 at 11:13 AM, jeffpeng said:

Or that Story mode (at least today) actually is the thing you should play first because it actually has a tutorial.

I have never played Story mode, and the fact that — after playing The Long Dark for one year and a half — I only learnt today about this, further proves your point. In fact, as I was reading this interesting thread, I was about to suggest that Hinterland should add a separate Tutorial, selectable in the main game menu, that puts players in a special sandbox where they learn the basic game mechanics. Heh. 

If that is additional work for Hinterland, they could make brief video tutorials each covering the most important stuff, giving some basic advice, without spoiling the fun of discovery too much.

[UpUpAway95]

20 minutes ago, Morrick said:

I have never played Story mode, and the fact that — after playing The Long Dark for one year and a half — I only learnt today about this, further proves your point. In fact, as I was reading this interesting thread, I was about to suggest that Hinterland should add a separate Tutorial, selectable in the main game menu, that puts players in a special sandbox where they learn the basic game mechanics. Heh. 

If that is additional work for Hinterland, they could make brief video tutorials each covering the most important stuff, giving some basic advice, without spoiling the fun of discovery too much.

I like this idea.  Something labeled "Tutorial" would, I think, make quite a difference in that both people who opt to use it have a clear expectation that this is a basic "learn the game" section and people opting to skip it over can  decide to take a break from whatever frustrating difficulty they are facing and enter the tutorial section to quickly learn/see what to try.  It could be a section of straight up videos (Raph has already done one of these inside the intro trailer when they changed the aiming mechanic a few updates back.  With a little expansion, even his most recent intro of the milling machine could be transformed into a tutorial) or it could be section of a short interactive "levels" on a particular mechanic or topic.  It would be a fair bit of work, no doubt... but I think it would be worth it as more and more different mechanics get added to the game.  I know that HL would like to avoid "handholding" inside the game; and that's good.  However, on the other hand, some people really do require a bit of handholding to get started in a game.  A tutorial section would make that available for those who want to use it without affecting those who prefer to learn new things the "hard way."

[ThePancakeLady]

38 minutes ago, Morrick said:

I was about to suggest that Hinterland should add a separate Tutorial, selectable in the main game menu, that puts players in a special sandbox where they learn the basic game mechanics. Heh. 

If that is additional work for Hinterland, they could make brief video tutorials each covering the most important stuff, giving some basic advice, without spoiling the fun of discovery too much.

The game was always advertised as "no hand-holding". The early versions of the game, when it was Sandbox Mode only, only one experience mode... you were thrown to the wolves, and has to learn things for yourself. It was thrilling, challenging, frustrating (and can still be experienced that way through the Time Capsule versions...), and you learned things "the hard way", learned from each death, and developed your own strategies.

We jump to now. Loading screens have hints on them, little bits of tutorial, if you read them. Wintermute has a tutorial built in, if you read the more detailed information the messages give you. There are guides and walkthroughs on Steam, online, video guides posted by streamers. One of the first streamers I watched before buying the game years ago was @Willowest. Who was calm, explained what she was doing and why. Other streamers such as @accurize2, @GELtaz, @Hadrian, @Atheenon and others, taught me many things, in much the same way. All with their own playstyles, that taught me that many things could be done, in different ways, for different reasons. The same goes for the vets here and on Steam who openly and happily share their knowledge with new players who ask for help and guidance.

The "tutorials" are out there for people who want them, want to find them. How would Hinterland add a tutorial that covered everything? All of the different ways we can choose to play the to game? If they skipped any single thing, or method, or strategy- would they be chastised for forgetting to tell us something? IMHO, the way they have done it feels best, for me, for this kind of game. "Forcing" or allowing us each to figure things out, talk to each other to get tips and tricks, developing our own individual playstyles.  I disagree that they should have , or still should, add a "full tutorial" to Survival Mode. Players helping players builds a stronger Community, a group that comes together and helps each other. Instead of some communities found on Steam, fr example, where the "community" is not united, but rather exists for infighting, "gitgud" threads, and "n00b hate" threads. It would be so difficult to cover it all, and do it right, in a way that satisfies *most* players. And so easy to to it wrong, and invite anger and attacks from people who thought they did it wrong. 

 

TL;DR: I think the game is as it should be, with no tutorial, but with a strong, curated community who helps each other on the forums, creating guides, walkthroughs, videos... in the way it has been done already. The TLD Community is one of the most helpful, friendly, outreaching, and welcoming Communities because of this. Just my 2¢. YMVMV.

[Morrick]

9 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

The game was always advertised as "no hand-holding". […]

*Takes notes*

"Remember not to mention the word tutorial ever again in these forums" 

[UpUpAway95]

24 minutes ago, Morrick said:

*Takes notes*

"Remember not to mention the word tutorial ever again in these forums" 

I still like the idea.

[UpUpAway95]

22 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

The game was always advertised as "no hand-holding". The early versions of the game, when it was Sandbox Mode only, only one experience mode... you were thrown to the wolves, and has to learn things for yourself. It was thrilling, challenging, frustrating (and can still be experienced that way through the Time Capsule versions...), and you learned things "the hard way", learned from each death, and developed your own strategies.

We jump to now. Loading screens have hints on them, little bits of tutorial, if you read them. Wintermute has a tutorial built in, if you read the more detailed information the messages give you. There are guides and walkthroughs on Steam, online, video guides posted by streamers. One of the first streamers I watched before buying the game years ago was @Willowest. Who was calm, explained what she was doing and why. Other streamers such as @accurize2, @GELtaz, @Hadrian, @Atheenon and others, taught me many things, in much the same way. All with their own playstyles, that taught me that many things could be done, in different ways, for different reasons. The same goes for the vets here and on Steam who openly and happily share their knowledge with new players who ask for help and guidance.

The "tutorials" are out there for people who want them, want to find them. How would Hinterland add a tutorial that covered everything? All of the different ways we can choose to play the to game? If they skipped any single thing, or method, or strategy- would they be chastised for forgetting to tell us something? IMHO, the way they have done it feels best, for me, for this kind of game. "Forcing" or allowing us each to figure things out, talk to each other to get tips and tricks, developing our own individual playstyles.  I disagree that they should have , or still should, add a "full tutorial" to Survival Mode. Players helping players builds a stronger Community, a group that comes together and helps each other. Instead of some communities found on Steam, fr example, where the "community" is not united, but rather exists for infighting, "gitgud" threads, and "n00b hate" threads. It would be so difficult to cover it all, and do it right, in a way that satisfies *most* players. And so easy to to it wrong, and invite anger and attacks from people who thought they did it wrong. 

 

TL;DR: I think the game is as it should be, with no tutorial, but with a strong, curated community who helps each other on the forums, creating guides, walkthroughs, videos... in the way it has been done already. The TLD Community is one of the most helpful, friendly, outreaching, and welcoming Communities because of this. Just my 2¢. YMVMV.

So you want new people to have to watch hundreds of hours of others playing the game, including videos where the gameplay may or may not have changed since the video was posted to Youtube, just to find information on a particular game mechanic that they are personally struggling with.  It's not like Youtubers go back and pull their tips and tricks videos and redo them every time Hinterlands changes a mechanic.  They seldom even flag them as being out of date.  Search for videos on how to handle wolves and the ones that are likely to come to the top are the older ones that have been watched many more times.  What about sifting out all the times when those Youtubers were simply mistaken about how something worked because they were really just learning it themselves during a stream?  What about Youtubers who just number their streams and don't even give any indication what part of the game they're playing in that episode?

What aobut the Wiki - sure the Whiteberry maps are great... but who is obligated or responsible for redoing them now that they are out of date and seriously out of date for some zones.  In that now they do contain misinformation, they are currently probably more confusing for new players to use than no map at all.  An ingame tutorial by HL telling players clearly that they don't provide a map and including some tips for using the environment (like the placement of rose hips, etc.) would actually be more helpful to new players to each their anxieties about not seeing one immediately upon opening their inventory.

Just because oldtimers had to learn it the "hard way" doesn't mean that all new players should have to as well.  This shouldn't be a gauntlet weeding out the 'hardy" players from the not so hardy (i.e. casual) ones.  Anyone who buys the game should be able to enjoy playing the game.  Ensuring that accurate and accessible information about how to play the game is "out there" is ultimately the responsibility of the devs because they are the ones selling that game to customers.

ETA:  I want to be clear... I do think this community is great and has done a great job with their videos and the Wiki and the maps.  In reality, the community is doing the hand-holding that HL doesn't do.  However, it is simply not the community's obligation to maintain those things.  The burden for basic "how to play" instructions rests on HL's shoulders.

Edited December 21, 2019 by UpUpAway95

[Guest jeffpeng]

@ThePancakeLadyI mostly agree. But since they actually did put a tutorial in the game with Story Mode and even expanded on that with Redux .... Why not put in a mention for new players "Hey dawg, you might wanna play a round of Wintermute! It has a great story and also teaches you some of the basics of the game. Also has a blind lady with a rifle."

2 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Just because oldtimers had to learn it the "hard way" doesn't mean that all new players should have to as well.

That's a fair point. I still wouldn't want a 10 step tutorial, and I think the first two Episodes of Wintermute teach you most relevant things in a way that doesn't feel like sitting through school all over again like most tutorials. Also Wintermute teaches you that in a rather safe environment: The difficulty really is forgiving, especially since you can reload after biting the dust.

Basically that's my stance: Direct new players to play Wintermute first and everything should be fine for most people. The deeper mechanics of the game are still subject to discovery, and if one really wants to become a TLD professional quick there are indeed more than enough resources on the interwebs.