Ucmh

HINTERLAND, wolves ruin the game!

Recommended Posts

I love The Long Dark. Kinda. The management of your clothes and tools, staving off the cold, the hunger and the thirst. But wolves are the weak link that just brings the whole game down. I've died one too many times to wolves and now I'm sick of it. On the hardest difficulty, what are the things I can do to save myself from wolves?

Drop bait? Unreliable.

Run? Once a wolf has started running after me, it doesn't stop.

Get a weapon and sturdy clothes and take the fight? No way. Even with an axe or a knife, I'm not even close to being the favorite.

Throw torches? Unreliable.

Start a fire? Too slow, and unreliable.

Now, I could change to custom settings but why should I have to? I want to play on the hardest difficulty survivor has to offer. When I decided to write this I had just gotten killed in story mode and there the settings aren't even customisable. Now, I know what you're thinking. "Well you chose to play on a hard difficulty so when the game is hard you shouldn't complain, you should just take it." The problem is that it isn't hard. It's random. Since there's nothing you can do if you get attacked, and nothing to prevent attack, every step you take is a roll of the dice. Does Hinterland REALLY want their players to invest hours into a survival game and have it end in a heartbeat even if the player played absolutely perfectly throughout?

I want animal threats to be like the rest of Interloper -- brutal and unforgiving, but WITH COUNTERPLAY. There are options, things you can do when you've gotten food poisoning, or your clothes are soaking wet. If you come over a little hill and a wolf is there you just die.

The strange thing is how unrealistic it is. I could at least understand if Hinterland was going for imitation of real wildlife and wolves just ended up like that, but wolves in real life are much more timid around people, so they've forced this gameruining thing onto the game.

That reminds me of something that aggravates this problem even more. Cars. When you're sitting inside cars you can't look outside properly! A wolf can be standing just behind the car and it's impossible for you to know. With a bit of snow on the window something they're just to the side of the car and you still can't see them because you're not allowed to lean over. It makes no sense. It doesn't improve gameplay and it's DEFINITELY not lifelike, which makes it just a pointless frustration.

Coming up with design choices that would instantly make The Long Dark a better game and keep wolves as intimidating as you would want is not hard. Just make them shy away for a few seconds if you bump into them, while they get a read on you. Have them call for backup and let them be more bold the bigger their numbers, like pack hunters should be. Make fire reliably deter them to SOME degree. Make them more persistent stalkers. Once they've gone into aggressive mode, make them start sprinting at you from bigger distances.

 

I can see what a session of The Long Dark would look like if it were like this... You're cold and hungry, and heading for shelter. You come over a hill, and stagger back as you see a wolf just a few feet in front of you. It staggers back as well in surprise as it notices you. You start backtracking, full sprint. The wolf takes a few steps forward and stands on the top of the hill, looking at you running away. It howls, and starts slowly running at you. Another wolf hears its call and joins from the bushes. They start running full sprint. You're almost out of stamina. You look behind you and a third wolf has joined in. Just as you don't have any energy left in your legs you throw yourself in a car. The wolves come to a halt just outside the window, breathing puffs on air on it. They circle the car, investigating. Another wolf joins. You're cold and in this car you're just getting colder. Many hours to go before the night is over. Occasionally, a wolf stands on its hind legs and leans on the car, scratching the windows with its paws, salivating at you at all that meat you got on your bones. Will you make it to sunrise?

That's not what happens now. Now, a wolf sees you, lunges at you, you left-click frantically, bleed out without even getting close to fighting it off, and then the game ends. What a shame. Hinterland, PLEASE bring the wolf element up to the high standard the rest of the game holds. I can't wait.

 

If anyone agrees with me, please say so. In numbers, we have more hope of getting what we want. Just like wolves ;)

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of the problem here is  you, not the wolves.

I played many stalker games (interloper just seemed to unrealistic) and eventually got tired of the endless wolves in that mode.

However, custom game modes allowed me exactly what I wanted and since then I have played this game for hundreds of hours.

Addressing some of your points.

1) Drop bait? Unreliable.

It's very reliable, you just have to do it before the wolf becomes aggressive. They'll ignore it if thye're already chasing you sometimes ,which seems very realistic.

2) Run? Once a wolf has started running after me, it doesn't stop.

Yes it does. If you break line of sight, get enough distance, or drop down or climb up difficult elevation without clear pathing, wolves will give up.

3) Get a weapon and sturdy clothes and take the fight? No way. Even with an axe or a knife, I'm not even close to being the favorite.

Knives, Hatchets, and hammers all work great in wolf struggles. If you have good clothing and one of those items you should be fine. Even if not, why are you not just shooting wolves in the face with guns or bows? A wolf struggle is what happens if you fail to kill the wolf with an arrow, not something you should seek out unless desperate or extremely comfy with your gear.

4) Throw torches? Unreliable.

Don't throw them, just back away from wolves while facing them with a torch. Unless you're carrying loads of meat (drop it to distract them!) they'll generally keep their distance

5) Start a fire? Too slow, and unreliable.

This works great. Not if the wolves surprise you, but in keeping them away constantly it is very effective

6) Now, I could change to custom settings but why should I have to?

You should because some parts of the game isn't to your liking and this is literally what the custom settings are for. Do the thing that makes the game more fun and entertaining for you. That is the point of the game and the custom settings are there to help you achieve it.

  • Upvote 11
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand why you don't want to run custom? You can make it even harder if you want, but disable wolves from spawning.

 

Also I do think that you should be able to avoid the majority of wolf spawns. But maybe there are just 5000 wolves running around on loper. I wouldn't know because I only play custom with the lowest spawn number possible for all animals(still wishing I could turn it way lower).

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, odizzido said:

I don't understand why you don't want to run custom? You can make it even harder if you want, but disable wolves from spawning.

 

Also I do think that you should be able to avoid the majority of wolf spawns. But maybe there are just 5000 wolves running around on loper. I wouldn't know because I only play custom with the lowest spawn number possible for all animals(still wishing I could turn it way lower).

'Cause I like the animal element as an idea just fine. I want to play with predators as a threat, just like Hinterland intended in standard survival and story mode, but I want it to be gameplay, not random inescapable death. Why would Hinterland design the hardest difficulty to be essentially unplayable? Hardest should be the way I described it in my previous comment, it's in everyone's best interest. Now I know that you guys don't think it's unplayable, but that's my experience. What you're describing sounds like lower difficulty settings.

15 hours ago, stay puft said:

I'm not sure why your having such a hard time with wolves and I don't mean that in a rude way but I'm on a 900 day interloper run and I've killed about 300 wolves got in 14 wolf struggles and had blood loss 3 times,

If you drop bait the wolf should turn around

if a wolf detects you, you can just walk backwards while looking at him until you get to a safe place he shouldn't attack you unless you get to close

I deal with wolf struggles on interloper with the knife all the time and you should win if you have decent clothing and your health isn't low

I don't think throwing torches will work to be honest

A fire works great! you don't have to complete the fire for it to scare the wolf away if he walks up to you as your lighting it he should run away

and lastly the wolves on all the maps follow a route/pattern that can be learned overtime to avoid them.

I suggest watching some interloper videos on YouTube to get an idea of how other players deal with them that might help you out :)

Bait works about 80% of the time, I'd say. Some wolves ignore bait even if you drop everything you have.

No, walking backwards doesn't work ^^ Like, the example I made in my previous comment... I am playing Wintermute and am walking up a hill to the old lady's house, and when I get around the corner of the little shed, a wolf is there. It immediately goes aggressive, there's no time to "walk backwards while looking."

"I deal with wolf struggles on interloper with the knife all the time and you should win if you have decent clothing and your health isn't low"

I literally don't know what game you're playing, dude ^^ When I fight a wolf on Interloper, the bar barely moves and I am SPAMMING that left mouse button. Only rarely do I survive if I take a fight when at full health. It works fine on lower difficulties though.

I've sat on the opposite end of a fully lit fire of wolves and they've run straight across it to attack me. Not wolf, but wolves. Several times. Fires are mostly a good deterrent, but sometimes they do nothing. Also doesn't help against the main problem, which is when you get line of sight of them when they are only a few feet away.

 

Also, @Kayosiv. The first thing you say is that you don't play on hardest, and hardest is what I'm talking about. I have no idea why you took time out of your day to write a reply when you don't address what I said at all.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, stay puft said:

I'm sorry your having these issues but if your talking about normal wolves then I have not experienced the things your talking about in 4 years of playing this game.

 

Also, Timberwolves are explicitly documented as not behaving the same way wrt fire, bait, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Ucmh said:

'Cause I like the animal element as an idea just fine. I want to play with predators as a threat, just like Hinterland intended in standard survival and story mode, but I want it to be gameplay, not random inescapable death. Why would Hinterland design the hardest difficulty to be essentially unplayable? Hardest should be the way I described it in my previous comment, it's in everyone's best interest. Now I know that you guys don't think it's unplayable, but that's my experience. What you're describing sounds like lower difficulty settings.

I'd like to see them remove all the standard difficulty settings so we just have custom games.   There should be no stigma attached to playing a custom game setting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ucmh I just want to put the most obvious first: if the hardest difficulty is too "hard" for you maybe hardest difficulty isn't for you. There's no shame in that.

Aside from that some of the points you bring forth are very much valid. To most of it there is counterplay, albeit not alway obvious counterplay. But just let me unpack this as you wrote it up.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:30 PM, Ucmh said:

Drop bait? Unreliable.

If you drop bait early enough AND don't have lots of smellies on you it's pretty damn reliable. If you are very close, have been stalked for a prolonged period of time, or carry 24kg of fresh bear meat and hope to get away with dropping a gut .... yeah, that's gonna end bad more often than not.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:30 PM, Ucmh said:

Run? Once a wolf has started running after me, it doesn't stop.

Correct. Unless you have a very close escape in the immediate proximity running actually is counter productive. The trick is not to have them running after you. One thing you can always do if you have no bow yet and they are charging you: pitch them a stone into their face. If it works: hooray, if not ... well you tried.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:30 PM, Ucmh said:

Get a weapon and sturdy clothes and take the fight? No way. Even with an axe or a knife, I'm not even close to being the favorite.

You are not supposed to favor fighting them head on on Interloper. That being said, with 35%+ defense you should be fine given you are well rested. If you are tired as hell you will take a lot of damage. If you are well rested you will often get away without a more than a minor laceration. If you want the best chance of ending a struggle quickly choose a blunt force weapon, meaning pry bar or hammer.

However ... having 35%+ defense is something hard to achieve, and this really won't help as advice for early games. It's what I call the "prey stage" of interloper. You are prey. It's as simple as that. You are not supposed to stand a chance if you get caught. It's kinda in the description: "You are not part of Mother Nature's plan". One can like that or dislike that, but it's one of the core elements of playing Interloper.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:30 PM, Ucmh said:

Throw torches? Unreliable.

It "used" to be rather reliable once you figured out that you have to throw the torch in front of them, not at them. I won't make any guarantees with the new wolf-fear in Interloper since Errant Pilgrim. It might actually be rather ineffective now. More data required.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:30 PM, Ucmh said:

Start a fire? Too slow, and unreliable.

It's not slow. Press 4, place it, make it. Just starting a fire counts as a full fire, even if it fails. But, again, with Errant Pilgrim wolves will no longer run away from a fire, but rather hold their distance for a few moments, and then charge you. But those few moments are enough to gain enough distance or ready your bow.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:30 PM, Ucmh said:

Does Hinterland REALLY want their players to invest hours into a survival game and have it end in a heartbeat even if the player played absolutely perfectly throughout?

Yes, they want that. It's part of the design of The Long Dark. You are supposed to eventually die. It's kinda the core concept of the game.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:30 PM, Ucmh said:

If you come over a little hill and a wolf is there you just die.

The counterplay here is to not come over that hill unless you have reason to believe that there is no wolf on the other side. Even if you have reason to believe that there is no wolf several factors might contribute to the fact that there might be a wolf regardless of the most educated guess you can make. That's why Interloper players preach "High Ground" since the inception of ... well Interloper.

Once you accumulate enough experience in the game you will know behind which hill you can reasonably expect not to meet a wolf. And trust me, even after over 3000 days of cummulative experience playing Interloper I still run into the odd wolf that's almost never there.

On 12/12/2019 at 2:30 PM, Ucmh said:

The strange thing is how unrealistic it is.

Hinterland has stated several times that realism is not part of the game design. As a hobbyist game designer I concur. If you wanted realism, you'd be out for days after spraining a limb, not 2 hours, or you'd take weeks to recover from a wolf bite, not a good night's rest.

ALL of that being said..... I kinda like your idea regarding how wolves "startle" when they expected you as little as you expected them. I seriously think that it would actually make a lot of sense to implement something like that, and be it just to remove the frustration caused by "seemingly" random demise really nobody is happy about when they fall victim to it. But the game would have to compensate for that on a different level, like making struggles even more unforgiving.

Because .... on the other hand a lot of finding success in Interloper hinges on being careful, planning ahead and making educated guesses while having sufficent risk mitigation factors, like being well rested, having protection orientated clothing, keeping bandages at hand, etc. It's a key design factor of Interloper, if not the key design factor. And that you sometimes are just dealt a losing hand is not only part of the game's design, it's a part of life.

Also .... I wouldn't regard Interloper as the "hardest" difficulty. It's the more unforgiving difficulty. But I personally find Stalker harder in that you have to fight hordes of wolves and facing them head on is sometimes unavoidable. It is avoidable on Interloper, definitively.

Edited by jeffpeng
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

There should be no stigma attached to playing a custom game setting.

The only stigma custom games have is the fact that they don't count towards feats. Which is nonsensical - I agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, you guys are saying things that I've already refuted with my earlier comments, you're saying I should do things when I've already explained why not. I've made my case for anyone interested in actually reading it.

Learning exactly where wolves spawn is something I haven't addressed, however. I simply think memorizing that is garbage gameplay and completely out of place in this style of game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 11:39 PM, Kayosiv said:

A lot of the problem here is  you, not the wolves.

I think this is truly the case.
 

@Ucmh
You can't really successfully "refute" what other players can clearly demonstrate as viable strategies/techniques. :D 

At this point, it seems you are just trying to force your opinion, which rarely works in a setting where folks are exchanging opinions and points of view.
You don't have to like that folks don't agree with you, but I don't think it's correct for you to try and tell folks they are wrong just because you've not been able to figure out a playstyle that works for you.

If you don't like the wolves, that's fine... but what I've seen here are folks trying to help you out.  So far, it just seems that you have been lashing out at those who've tried to help give you ways to better cope with your problem. 


:coffee::fire:

 

Edited by ManicManiac
  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Throwing torches doesn't work but literally all the other things you listed work perfectly fine. 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think things are just fine the way they are.

Currently playing: Survival Mode, Custom settings. (Interloper-level weather, calorie needs, gear, Stalker-level wolves, water needs, rifle spawns, wolf damage, minimum health recovery).

Goal: Collect all buffer memories.

Desolation Point, Coastal Highway, Timberwolf Mountain, and Pleasant Valley complete. Working on Mystery Lake.

  • Upvote 2
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Ucmh said:

I've made my case for anyone interested in actually reading it.

Oh I've actually read it, completely and carefully, despite that I could have dismissed it as "another noob complaining". And I've even given you the courtesy of offering my opinions and strategies which I think might help you. I've even agreed to some part of what you said. The others here and I really have offered you the respect of wanting to tackle this problem with you together, help you out, and make this game work for you on "the hardest difficulty" which you clearly are yet to master. But if all you are willing to offer in return is "if you had read my post you'd agree with me" then all I am willing to offer as further advice is "gitgud, buddy". Edit: Yeah, and no, Hinterland won't change the game "for you" and you clearly aren't making a case for the majority of players here.

Edited by jeffpeng
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I'd like to see them remove all the standard difficulty settings so we just have custom games.   There should be no stigma attached to playing a custom game setting.

I'd prefer that they do not remove the standard vanilla settings. I quite like them, and don;t use custom settings very often. In fact, I haven't used them more than 10 times, since it was added. My son also prefers standard vanilla experience modes. My husband and daughter prefer custom settings, and use them more often than vanilla settings. My Godson likes both, about equally from what his Mum & Dad tell me, and what I have seen when he is stating with us for a weekend, and playing the game on our XBox One X.

I would have no problems with Hinterland allowing Feat progression in Custom Settings, but I also understand why they don't allow it.

Feat- (standard English definition): "An achievement that requires great courage, skill, or strength."

Being able to set every setting to "Pilgrim Lite" and spam every skill and action needed to earn the Feat, kinda makes the definition and name "Feat" pointless. They aren't supposed to be super-easy to get. 

Just my 2¢. YMMV. 

 

And I would likely quit playing the game if I could not play standard vanilla Stalker or Voyageur, with the click of 1 button, and instead had to go through the custom settings toolbox each time to set every setting to match the standard templates for either. 

  • Upvote 1
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

I would have no problems with Hinterland allowing Feat progression in Custom Settings, but I also understand why they don't allow it.

Feat- (standard English definition): "An achievement that requires great courage, skill, or strength."

Being able to set every setting to "Pilgrim Lite" and spam every skill and action needed to earn the Feat, kinda makes the definition and name "Feat" pointless. They aren't supposed to be super-easy to get. 

While certainly off topic.... is it even possible to make it easier than Pilgrim? I mean .... significantly easier?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jeffpeng said:

While certainly off topic.... is it even possible to make it easier than Pilgrim? I mean .... significantly easier?

Totally.  Wildlife is not hostile, but jack wolves to high and wolf fear to high.  You won't even have to hunt--wolves will be reliably taking deer down for you left and right, just bonk 'em with a stone, and claim the kill.  Turn time of day multiplier to 4x, and all 4 subconditions decrease 4x slower.  (Unless you do something to accelerate time.)  You can turn your 4 subconditions to decrease far slower too, which compounds with the time of day multiplier.  You can tune loot tables to generate even more loot than Pilgrim.  You can disable sprains, broken ribs, food poisoning, etc.

I mean pilgrim doesn't have hostile wildlife, but the other variables are actually tuned pretty moderately.  The game can get a LOT easier.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ajb1978 said:

Totally.  Wildlife is not hostile, but jack wolves to high and wolf fear to high.  You won't even have to hunt--wolves will be reliably taking deer down for you left and right, just bonk 'em with a stone, and claim the kill.  Turn time of day multiplier to 4x, and all 4 subconditions decrease 4x slower.  (Unless you do something to accelerate time.)  You can turn your 4 subconditions to decrease far slower too, which compounds with the time of day multiplier.  You can tune loot tables to generate even more loot than Pilgrim.  You can disable sprains, broken ribs, food poisoning, etc.

I mean pilgrim doesn't have hostile wildlife, but the other variables are actually tuned pretty moderately.  The game can get a LOT easier.

Well maybe then HL could pick a few key settings as roadblocks. Like the time of day multiplier, or too easy settings for subcondition. My argument however when it comes to this topic is that Pilgrim already is so easy it really already allows you to basically get those feat for free. But thanks for the insight. I've never actually tried to create "Pilgrim light"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

I've never actually tried to create "Pilgrim light"

Oh I went on both ends of the spectrum.  I started a Pilgrim Light game with everything tuned as easy as I could possibly make it, then went to work and left the survivor standing there in the cold.

He was still alive when I came home.  Not in good shape mind you, but very much alive.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

At this point, it seems you are just trying to force your opinion, which rarely works in a setting where folks are exchanging opinions and points of view.
You don't have to like that folks don't agree with you, but I don't think it's correct for you to try and tell folks they are wrong just because you've not been able to figure out a playstyle that works for you.

If you don't like the wolves, that's fine... but what I've seen here are folks trying to help you out.  So far, it just seems that you have been lashing out at those who've tried to help give you ways to better cope with your problem. 

I'm not forcing my opinion. I'm simply not agreeing with the things you all are saying since they're not convincing. I'm not gonna give up on my point of view just 'cause I'm outnumbered, I change my mind when convincing arguments are presented.

I'm doing the things everyone is saying works already. The reason I disagree with the practices people are saying are effective isn't because I haven't "figured out" something, it's just that my experience using those same practices is different. If it for some reason works when you play but not when I play, well... then there's no point in either of us sharing our experiences and the conversation is over, and that's fine. But you're talking like I'm just bullheadedly ignoring what people are saying, and that's just a lie. It's the total opposite.

Calling anything I've said "lashing out" is ridiculous, to be honest. I've been polite, while expressing a little bit of frustration at one or two things I thought were thoughtless. If anything, this comment of yours is, ironically, the only thing that really rubbed me the wrong way ^^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dropping bait to kill wolves in unrealiable, but I've dropped some and they completely lost interest in me. 

Running can work if you are energized enough.

I don't recommend fighting hand to hand. 

Torches and flares do work almost 100% of the time. You just have to know when to toss them. Wait until the wolf runs up to you and then stops, then toss it at their feet. They run always almost always if you get it right. 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Fuarian said:

Torches and flares do work almost 100% of the time. You just have to know when to toss them. Wait until the wolf runs up to you and then stops, then toss it at their feet. They run always almost always if you get it right

 

4 minutes ago, stay puft said:

And are you sure throwing torches and flares works on interloper? I always assumed it didn't work so I never bothered trying it out.

I thought the same had no idea flares and torches worked on interloper.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Ucmh said:

I'm not forcing my opinion. I'm simply not agreeing with the things you all are saying since they're not convincing. I'm not gonna give up on my point of view just 'cause I'm outnumbered, I change my mind when convincing arguments are presented.

If you are entitled to anything it's your own opinion. Being the sole judge over what is convincing from a minority standpoint without even bothering to refute an argument .... I guess that works if one hold themselves in really high regard, and doesn't think too much of the point of view of others, and/or others in general. But I take the liberty of questioning the wisdom in starting an argument with people you wouldn't really listen to unless they confirm what you already believe is true. And talking of convincing people ... the only two things you have convinced me of is a) that you expect the game to conform to some logic you thought out for yourself it should have and b) that this thread is a waste of time.

7 minutes ago, stay puft said:

And are you sure throwing torches and flares works on interloper? I always assumed it didn't work so I never bothered trying it out.

It did work if you did it correctly. Not so sure now. Until I get to a "disposable Loper" I assume they don't.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Several posts hidden. 
 

if you can’t debate the topic with mutual respect then the thread will be locked or people will be removed from the forums. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Admin said:

Several posts hidden. 
 

if you can’t debate the topic with mutual respect then the thread will be locked or people will be removed from the forums. 

Honestly if your going to threaten to remove me from the forums for using one swear word towards a person that was picking on me I'll just leave willingly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ucmh said:

they're not convincing

:D 

Okay... well most of us have tried to help you, so I guess our part of the conversation is over.

:coffee::fire:
I see there are still folks here trying to help you out and offer advice (despite you trying to "refute" them), I wish them all the best of luck.

Edited by ManicManiac
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.