Tbone555

The sprain mechanics are still kinda... Meh.

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Alright so 2 days ago, I hopped off the tailgate of my dad's pickup and landed on my foot sideways. Yeah I know. Ouch. So I went to the doctor to get it xrayed because I was pretty sure it was broken. I really couldn't tell since my adrenaline was pretty high.

Anyway. They slapped a bandage on the sprained ankle and to my surprise I still wasn't able run at full speed incase of a surprise wolf attack.

My suggestion is this. You get a sprained ankle. The pain affliction, whereas now where it makes painkillers totally useless, should impair your focus much more. For example, you can't do maintenance on your tools or crafting, unless you take pain killers. The pain killers should let you keep your focus for a short while but the pain should persist through the duration of the sprain, making pain killers a balanced and useful mechanic instead of the sugar pills they are now.

Now. The bandage. The bandage should let you move slightly faster and get rid of the limping screen effect. That's it. Still no running. And the heal time should be 2 days of rest because it's still a video game. In reality a sprain could take several weeks to heal, but I don't think anyone would want that here.

Wrist sprains would be very similar. Same thing with the painkillers. But with a bandage, we should be able to shoot a firearm or pull a bow, however VERY inaccurately. Accuracy would increase with use of painkillers, but still more inaccurate than a healthy wrist.

I know the long dark is a game, but it is based around realism. So it should be a scaled down version of how it would REALLY be. Sprains do not magically go away with slapping a bandage on them. Although this is an improvement from the original sprain mechanic it's still just not right

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If HL were to make changes similar to what you suggest, they would also need to reduce the possibility of getting sprains, IMHO.

 

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10 hours ago, Hawk said:

If HL were to make changes similar to what you suggest, they would also need to reduce the possibility of getting sprains, IMHO.

 

Not necessarily. Sprain chance is quite low, unless you're walking up a ridiculously steep hill, in which case I can see slipping and twisting your ankle, especially in deep snow. Making the sprain mechanics actually matter would really push some deeper survival decisions as well. Imagine the deer you're tracking dies on the side of a steep cliff. Well as of now that really doesn't matter whatsoever since your guy has magic bandages that instaheal a sprain. Wish I had some of those right about now. Anyway, you'd have to think "well there's a high chance I'm gonna slip and really hurt myself, and be out of commission for a couple days. is that meat REALLY worth it?"

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11 hours ago, Hawk said:

If HL were to make changes similar to what you suggest, they would also need to reduce the possibility of getting sprains, IMHO.

 

Agreed.  And inform the player more precisely what their sprain risk actually is, and when the dice are rolled.  Exploration is a huge point of the game, and punishing the player that severely for playing the game correctly is a great way to piss pretty much everyone off.  So if sprains are made so severe that they cripple you for two game days, then they should be as rare as dysentery.

(And I've been playing this game 4 years now, and never once had dysentery.)

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Have a "pain meter" similiar to the freezing meter. 

Also have 2 types of painkillers. The normal ones we already have and a more effective but much rare perscription painkiller.

Also painkillers should take around half an ingame hour to kick in.

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18 hours ago, Tbone555 said:

The bandage should let you move slightly faster and get rid of the limping screen effect. That's it. Still no running

Consider the effect this will have on challenges...such as Hopeless Rescue. Get one sprain and your speedrun is finished. This will kill speedrunning altogether... I like the idea of how painkillers should work because they are totally useless at the moment apart from making a nice effect for your screenshots.But also....keep in mind that realism is not a good benchmark for this game. There is so much about it that's not realistic. And the devs are trying to make an interesting experience rather than a realistic one, so making it "more realistic" is not going to necessarily make the game better. But agreed on your original point...the sprains system is still kinda meh...although we've learned how to get around sprains to some degree. 

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20 hours ago, Tbone555 said:

I know the long dark is a game, but it is based around realism. So it should be a scaled down version of how it would REALLY be. Sprains do not magically go away with slapping a bandage on them.

 I think the challenge is more about finding and consuming finite, non-renewable resources than hobbling the player for extended periods.

 I suppose if you feel strongly about it, don't take the meds or use the bandage and limp around for your requisite 2 days. If you make this choice, you get what you want while everyone else is also happy not having to do that. This is how the Deadman challenge was created: players setting and adhering to rules they set for themselves. :)

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On 12/1/2019 at 8:56 PM, ajb1978 said:

Agreed.  And inform the player more precisely what their sprain risk actually is, and when the dice are rolled.  Exploration is a huge point of the game, and punishing the player that severely for playing the game correctly is a great way to piss pretty much everyone off.  So if sprains are made so severe that they cripple you for two game days, then they should be as rare as dysentery.

(And I've been playing this game 4 years now, and never once had dysentery.)

I humbly, completely disagree. Let's look at dysentery. Why have you never got dysentery? Because you have much more sense than to drink unboiled water. Wanna know how to avoid a sprain? Don't try to walk up a damn near 90 degree slope covered in deep snow. It's simple to avoid. Personally, I don't get why you would want to know the EXACT chance of getting a sprain at every possible moment. Isn't that all the fun of a survival game? Not knowing when tragedy is going to strike and doing your best to prepare for it and avoid it? The long dark has always been, or used to be, very punishing for it's players. And they were proud of that. It didn't "piss people off," it drove the players to learn the game to avoid getting themselves in those situations. But alas, the long dark is becoming less and less of a gritty hardcore punishing survival game and more of a casual gamers nature walk as time goes on. And I can't say I'm pleased with the change.

 

18 hours ago, Lohaan said:

Consider the effect this will have on challenges...such as Hopeless Rescue. Get one sprain and your speedrun is finished. This will kill speedrunning altogether... I like the idea of how painkillers should work because they are totally useless at the moment apart from making a nice effect for your screenshots.But also....keep in mind that realism is not a good benchmark for this game. There is so much about it that's not realistic. And the devs are trying to make an interesting experience rather than a realistic one, so making it "more realistic" is not going to necessarily make the game better. But agreed on your original point...the sprains system is still kinda meh...although we've learned how to get around sprains to some degree. 

That is a valid point, and something I didn't think about. Maybe as @Skelegutplays mentioned above, this could be solved by introducing a new item, a bottle of prescription painkillers. With prescription painkillers and a bandage, it would completely negate the effects of the sprain and allow you to move normally for a few hours. During survival mode, the drop rate would be rare, whereas during specific challenge modes they would be more common to compensate for needing to move faster. However I don't personally believe that making a mechanic easier to compensate for a challenge mode is the right move for a survival game.

As far as realism goes, I think my point is a fair one. You get bit by a wolf, you bleed, you don't disinfect it, you get a nasty infection, you don't boil your water, you get dysentery, etc. Etc. There are plenty of realistic consequences for neglecting your survivor. Then we have the sprains. You fall down trying to spiderman your way across a cliff, or walk up a way too steep hill and get a sprain... well... doesn't matter. At all. There's no consequence whatsoever if you can just slap a bandage on it, be 100 percent and call it a day. The sprain mechanic may as well not even exist. Painkillers either for that matter. It's very very unbalanced.

17 hours ago, Carbon said:

 I think the challenge is more about finding and consuming finite, non-renewable resources than hobbling the player for extended periods.

 I suppose if you feel strongly about it, don't take the meds or use the bandage and limp around for your requisite 2 days. If you make this choice, you get what you want while everyone else is also happy not having to do that. This is how the Deadman challenge was created: players setting and adhering to rules they set for themselves. :)

This is not a valid argument and I'm really tired of hearing this. "If you don't like it just pretend it's not there."

No. This is a survival game and I will utilize every mechanic to my benefit, in the name of survival. "Pretend it's not there" does NOT compensate for unbalanced game mechanics.

Please tell me which of these resources are finite. There is enough cloth in one map to make more bandages than you could ever use in a single game. Bandages are in no way finite. And as I stated, painkillers do nothing but remove a screen effect. Sure they are finite to an extent. Keep in mind rose hips grow back and they have the exact same effect. But they are completely useless. The pain mechanic simply doesn't matter in its current state, and neither of which resources you speak of, are finite. In fact they are virtually infinite.

Edited by Tbone555
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2 hours ago, Tbone555 said:

This is not a valid argument and I'm really tired of hearing this.

 Well, invalid premises will beget invalid conclusions. :P

 The "realism" argument is equally exhausting and exhausted. At every moment we are asked to suspend reality, an idea toward which I'm sure you don't require detailed information. An argument that founds itself on realism in a game which not only makes no claim to be a simulation but actually makes claims to the contrary on each and every startup just seems....invalid.

 It's simply your opinion that the mechanics are "broken", hence this topic being in the "wish list" and not in a formal bug report. Your idea has gone from a desire to now stating that the system is broken but language alone doesn't change opinions into arguments. It's not broken, it just isn't the way you want. I see no more suspension of disbelief in ignoring meds and bandages than using leather taken from running shoes to make hiking boots new; they both require the 'forgetting' of reality. Heck, the very premise upon which the entire game is founded requires this, yet we play.

 I really don't want to argue at all. It's not that you're wrong in reality - we've all had bad sprains that don't go away in an instant - but it's a game and there is a lot of creative license taken at each and every moment. It's good that we can state our ideas and I don't doubt that the developers read those ideas and take them into consideration. Perhaps you will be vindicated with a patch or an update incorporating your ideas. But they are just opinions based on a faulty premise in the end.

 After all, anything is possible in Disneyland. ;)

 Take care mate.

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3 hours ago, Tbone555 said:

Keep in mind rose hips grow back and they have the exact same effect.

Rosehips, and reishi mushrooms do not respawn.

You may have had a play through which was still ongoing during a major update/ map change.

Which sometimes can cause these resources to respawn/reset with map/region changes.

As far as i am aware the only things that respawn(not including beachcombimg) are coal  and birchbark

Edited by sierra 117

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6 hours ago, Carbon said:

 Well, invalid premises will beget invalid conclusions. :P

 The "realism" argument is equally exhausting and exhausted. At every moment we are asked to suspend reality, an idea toward which I'm sure you don't require detailed information. An argument that founds itself on realism in a game which not only makes no claim to be a simulation but actually makes claims to the contrary on each and every startup just seems....invalid.

 It's simply your opinion that the mechanics are "broken", hence this topic being in the "wish list" and not in a formal bug report. Your idea has gone from a desire to now stating that the system is broken but language alone doesn't change opinions into arguments. It's not broken, it just isn't the way you want. I see no more suspension of disbelief in ignoring meds and bandages than using leather taken from running shoes to make hiking boots new; they both require the 'forgetting' of reality. Heck, the very premise upon which the entire game is founded requires this, yet we play.

 I really don't want to argue at all. It's not that you're wrong in reality - we've all had bad sprains that don't go away in an instant - but it's a game and there is a lot of creative license taken at each and every moment. It's good that we can state our ideas and I don't doubt that the developers read those ideas and take them into consideration. Perhaps you will be vindicated with a patch or an update incorporating your ideas. But they are just opinions based on a faulty premise in the end.

 After all, anything is possible in Disneyland. ;)

 Take care mate.

The wish list is also here for the community to discuss the impact of these ideas and debate about their possible balancing in the game before any action is taken to the idea, so you can drop the passive aggressiveness there, bucko, that is unless you have something useful to add to or argue against the topic.

And as I stated above, it's only fair with the afflictions we have now. There's a cause and effect to every affliction in this game, except sprains. The sprain mechanic is so useless it may as well not even be there. It effects us none at all, and that isn't an opinion. It is, very factually, unbalanced, sorry to say.

6 hours ago, sierra 117 said:

Rosehips, and reishi mushrooms do not respawn.

You may have had a play through which was still ongoing during a major update/ map change.

Which sometimes can cause these resources to respawn/reset with map/region changes.

As far as i am aware the only things that respawn(not including beachcombimg) are coal  and birchbark

Oh, I didn't know that, thanks for letting me know. Yeah I must of been playing through a map change and got confused. Still, my point remains though. Even if painkillers are very finite it truly doesn't make a difference. Most of the time when that pain affliction pops up I forget I have pain killers in my pack, that's how little it matters. The screen effect doesn't make much difference and is actually kinda neat to look at, being a new addition to the game

Edited by Tbone555

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I wouldn’t know personally since I have great coordination and balance I have never sprained slash broke my ankle or wrist. But, I do know plenty of people who have and iv’e broken legs, arms got my foot crushed by a bolder once. From what I have seen the immediate threat of death is enough make you bit your tongue and run. But, this damages the your body further.

Edited by RegentRelic

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20 hours ago, Tbone555 said:

The wish list is also here for the community to discuss the impact of these ideas and debate about their possible balancing in the game before any action is taken to the idea, so you can drop the passive aggressiveness there, bucko, that is unless you have something useful to add to or argue against the topic.

And as I stated above, it's only fair with the afflictions we have now. There's a cause and effect to every affliction in this game, except sprains. The sprain mechanic is so useless it may as well not even be there. It effects us none at all, and that isn't an opinion. It is, very factually, unbalanced, sorry to say.

I wasn't being passive/aggressive, I was simply showing that arguments based on 'realism' are invalid and suggesting a solution. You don't have to treat the sprain. Again, most community challenges have come about by players setting their own rules - typically limitations - and adhering to them. It's a choice and to set your own limitations is as valid as the game's hard-coded rules. It's your run and you can make your own story and rules...play it how you want.

 Pain does affect my playing (I can't speak for everyone): the character whinging constantly and the blurred edges are a strong motivator, particularly if I get a sprain early in the day and have a lot of ground to cover. It's just annoying to continuously hear and see that and I don't want to have that continue. The pain meds being finite are the punishment - or deterrent, if you want - to getting sprains. Not having them or needing to take the time, energy and materials (wood, precious matches or needing a sunny day if you're lucky enough to have the mag lens) to brew RH tea are all negative side-effects of sprains. The bandage returns mobility but trying to carry on in pain drastically affects my enjoyment of the game, so I'm strongly motivated to avoid getting sprains.

 The point is that pain does have consequences and meaningful ones (again, for me) all within the context of the game. So your calls for these consequences to be more severe are just your opinion and to base those calls on reality has no foundation given that the entire premise of the game is essentially a fantasy. Yes, the game is a reflection of reality, veering closer in some aspects and farther in others, but it's not trying to re-create reality. And yes, as I said, perhaps your ideas will be implemented, as this is our place for discussion. But certainly we are allowed to politely debate these ideas with one another which is what I believe I'm doing.

No disrespect intended at all and I apologize if you took anything I wrote that way. I responded not to simply be contrary or antagonistic, but to voice my opinion toward your ideas, that's all.

 

Edited by Carbon

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5 hours ago, Carbon said:

I wasn't being passive/aggressive, I was simply showing that arguments based on 'realism' are invalid and suggesting a solution. You don't have to treat the sprain. Again, most community challenges have come about by players setting their own rules - typically limitations - and adhering to them. It's a choice and to set your own limitations is as valid as the game's hard-coded rules. It's your run and you can make your own story and rules...play it how you want.

 Pain does affect my playing (I can't speak for everyone): the character whinging constantly and the blurred edges are a strong motivator, particularly if I get a sprain early in the day and have a lot of ground to cover. It's just annoying to continuously hear and see that and I don't want to have that continue. The pain meds being finite are the punishment - or deterrent, if you want - to getting sprains. Not having them or needing to take the time, energy and materials (wood, precious matches or needing a sunny day if you're lucky enough to have the mag lens) to brew RH tea are all negative side-effects of sprains. The bandage returns mobility but trying to carry on in pain drastically affects my enjoyment of the game, so I'm strongly motivated to avoid getting sprains.

 The point is that pain does have consequences and meaningful ones (again, for me) all within the context of the game. So your calls for these consequences to be more severe are just your opinion and to base those calls on reality has no foundation given that the entire premise of the game is essentially a fantasy. Yes, the game is a reflection of reality, veering closer in some aspects and farther in others, but it's not trying to re-create reality. And yes, as I said, perhaps your ideas will be implemented, as this is our place for discussion. But certainly we are allowed to politely debate these ideas with one another which is what I believe I'm doing.

No disrespect intended at all and I apologize if you took anything I wrote that way. I responded not to simply be contrary or antagonistic, but to voice my opinion toward your ideas, that's all.

 

I apologize about that then, I definitely took your response the wrong way.

I suppose the pain mechanic varies from person to person. It doesn't much effect me but I can see how it could get annoying. 

Okay, maybe two days is a bit much. From what I've seen on this topic people mostly have an issue with the duration. I personally wouldn't mind it, but this is a game for all of us. So. Scratch that. How about the exact same idea I originally stated, but 4 hours of rest for heal. Painkillers would take away the pain effect, and a bandage would stop you from limping and let you walk full speed. But you still have to get to your shelter and rest that foot up for a few hours if you wanna do any running.

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 I'm tired of "realism" being a dirty word around here.  I've considered  "carbon-based holographic simulation that we currently occupy" but it's a little clunky.

From the  loading page:

Quote

"The Long Dark is a survival experience, and we strive for realism in many areas, but it is NOT a replacement for actual survival training or experience in the wilderness".

So it's a gray area.  See, they're striving for it here and there. So please stop invalidating the "it's not realistic" argument.   Obviously people are going to compare what they play to what they know. 

In the end the director and the devs will do whatever they choose to do, however they do it, and that's great,  but the "it's not realistic" argument should not be dismissed out of hand.

/rant

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4 hours ago, diggity said:

So it's a gray area.  See, they're striving for it here and there. So please stop invalidating the "it's not realistic" argument.   Obviously people are going to compare what they play to what they know. 

The idea that the game is not striving to be a faithful simulation isn't at all a grey area, it's a fact. As I said, though it may veer closer and farther from some known reality doesn't say anything contrary to the established fact that it is a fantasy. I think it's a valid conclusion to claim that the current sprain system isn't at all realistic in any sense and why should it be? And where exactly is the game striving for realism? I can't think of one system that accurately portrays any objective reality. Ok...it snows. There's one. It gets windy. Two. But past these more banal examples, I really can't think of anything objective.

 Maybe the reason why this keeps coming up in the context of TLD (and not in Star Wars games) is that the fantasy isn't so far from a common and well-known reality and our familiarity with aspects/elements of particular aspects of the game leads us to believe that  represented reality 'X' in the game should more accurately mirror the real 'X', but there is no foundation for this assertion. Why should in-game 'X' be more like 'X' in real life? So, a kind of Appeal to Nature variant mixed with a confirmation/familiarity bias? I'm not well-read on all aspects of ludology or game criticism enough to label exactly what's going on here concisely, but I guess that there is something akin to what I described. We know 'X in real life' and judge 'representation of X in game' according to our understanding of 'real X'. We thus have difficulty suspending our disbelief towards those aspects of which we are more familiar. I don't see anyone making complaints about the harvesting/repair systems though, probably because we don't know much about those things, as a contrary example.

Anyhow, the railing against reality as a yardstick by which to measure the game might go away simply because of redundancy, but it will never go away because it becomes a valid premise to justify a conclusion about an aspect of the game. We should be happy enough to state and discuss our opinions on these matters and not strive to dress them up as truths or valid arguments.

Again, @diggity, no disrespect intended at all. Just talking. :)

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14 hours ago, Carbon said:

The idea that the game is not striving to be a faithful simulation isn't at all a grey area, it's a fact. As I said, though it may veer closer and farther from some known reality doesn't say anything contrary to the established fact that it is a fantasy. I think it's a valid conclusion to claim that the current sprain system isn't at all realistic in any sense and why should it be? And where exactly is the game striving for realism? I can't think of one system that accurately portrays any objective reality. Ok...it snows. There's one. It gets windy. Two. But past these more banal examples, I really can't think of anything objective.

 Maybe the reason why this keeps coming up in the context of TLD (and not in Star Wars games) is that the fantasy isn't so far from a common and well-known reality and our familiarity with aspects/elements of particular aspects of the game leads us to believe that  represented reality 'X' in the game should more accurately mirror the real 'X', but there is no foundation for this assertion. Why should in-game 'X' be more like 'X' in real life? So, a kind of Appeal to Nature variant mixed with a confirmation/familiarity bias? I'm not well-read on all aspects of ludology or game criticism enough to label exactly what's going on here concisely, but I guess that there is something akin to what I described. We know 'X in real life' and judge 'representation of X in game' according to our understanding of 'real X'. We thus have difficulty suspending our disbelief towards those aspects of which we are more familiar. I don't see anyone making complaints about the harvesting/repair systems though, probably because we don't know much about those things, as a contrary example.

Anyhow, the railing against reality as a yardstick by which to measure the game might go away simply because of redundancy, but it will never go away because it becomes a valid premise to justify a conclusion about an aspect of the game. We should be happy enough to state and discuss our opinions on these matters and not strive to dress them up as truths or valid arguments.

Again, @diggity, no disrespect intended at all. Just talking. :)

The realism argument is a small issue to the bigger picture. The way it currently is, even from a video game standpoint, it could use some more balancing. It just doesn't work, real or not.

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15 hours ago, Carbon said:

The idea that the game is not striving to be a faithful simulation isn't at all a grey area, it's a fact. ... excess verbiage snipped for brevity's sake.

Is anyone claiming that it is a Reality Simulator?  No one is saying that.   Literally nobody.  So why are you setting up a straw man?

Did you misread or misunderstand what I said?  I'll quote from the loading page, again:

Quote

TLD is a survival experience, and we strive for realism in many areas....It is not a wilderness survival training simulation

Seems pretty straightforward.   Some areas they strive for reality, others, not so much.  Up to them.  But no where does it specify that we can't talk about to which, why, and wherefore said striving pertains.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, diggity said:

Is anyone claiming that it is a Reality Simulator?  No one is saying that.   Literally nobody.  So why are you setting up a straw man?

 

On 12/5/2019 at 3:07 PM, diggity said:

So it's a gray area. 

Sorry. What is "it" then?

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14 hours ago, Carbon said:

 

Sorry. What is "it" then?

The amount of realism in the game.

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