episode 4 & 5 ?

[manolitode]

11 hours ago, SpitztheGreat said:

That struck me hard because it made me realize something; I don't care. Whatever momentum this game had is completely lost. In those 15+ months, I've moved on. I'm either playing Survival mode, or I'm dabbling in other projects. Will and Astrid's story simply isn't compelling enough to survive 15+ months of near radio silence. It's not a bad story, there's a lot of care put into it, but very few narratives could survive such a long hiatus. 

I agree with your compliments to HL but I don't identify with your line of thought when it comes to story. Could you explain further why you think waiting time kills a good story? It seems clear to me that many manage to reignite their love for a tale after ever so long waiting times. I didn't play God of War since 2018, I still feel for the characters and don't mind waiting for the next game. The same goes for Netflix series, you wait 1-2 years for the next narrative from the Crown, Ozark, or whatever you like. Whether it be video games, books, TV-series or movies, we are used to waiting.   

11 hours ago, SpitztheGreat said:

If they were to just straight up cancel Wintermute at this point, I wouldn't be surprised. At minimum, they've got to be muttering to themselves "Never again" regarding a game with episodic narrative structure.

It seems Raph just confirmed ep 4 and 5 are certainly up for relase, just in case you missed it, here's the link: The Case for Paid Expansions - General Discussion - Hinterland Forums 

[SpitztheGreat]

11 hours ago, manolitode said:

I agree with your compliments to HL but I don't identify with your line of thought when it comes to story. Could you explain further why you think waiting time kills a good story? It seems clear to me that many manage to reignite their love for a tale after ever so long waiting times. I didn't play God of War since 2018, I still feel for the characters and don't mind waiting for the next game. The same goes for Netflix series, you wait 1-2 years for the next narrative from the Crown, Ozark, or whatever you like. Whether it be video games, books, TV-series or movies, we are used to waiting.   

It seems Raph just confirmed ep 4 and 5 are certainly up for relase, just in case you missed it, here's the link: The Case for Paid Expansions - General Discussion - Hinterland Forums 

This is a personal preference, but I would argue that the trend towards 2 year development cycles for 10 episode seasons is not in the best interest of story telling and is only done as a way to spread profits out longer. But to the broader point about narratives losing momentum, the term "strike while the iron is hot" exists for a reason. When you have something like a episodic narrative, it's very helpful to keep the momentum going with the audience. When episodes end on cliff hangers, people are engaged, they want to know what comes next, they're talking about the game/story/whatever to their friends, excitement builds, buzz around the product increases, this is the sense of momentum that I'm talking about. This keeps the audience engaged in the long off-period when there's no new content. But that can only last so long, and the length of time it lasts varies case by case. The longer between releases, the more momentum that is lost. People have a lot of options these days, even the best narratives can only hold on to their audience just so long before the audience begins to lose interest.  So in a perfect world, the creative team behind any work of fiction would strive to find the right balance. You don't want to flood the market with an inferior product just so you maximize momentum, but you don't want to take so long that the audience has moved on.

While I would argue that your idea that audiences are "use to waiting" is not a badge of honor, it misses the point of what we're dealing with. Let's assume that waiting 2 years for a new season of content is agreed upon as acceptable. The critical element to this is that these seasons are delivering a fully formed story as compensation for their long development cycles. It may take two years to develop one season, but once it's released it's all there (either in weekly installments or mass released at once). That obviously hasn't happened for TLD. Instead of waiting years for an entire season to be released all at once, we're going a year+ between each episode. And while the nature of video games is different from TV or film, it's still creates a problem for pacing. In four years, Wintermute has only had (roughly) nine hours of content. And to make matters worse, those nine hours don't even tell a complete story. In order to get the full story we need all five episodes which will probably take until 2022 or 23 at this rate. That's a long time to wait for a story.

Do you know what may have worked better? Self contained stories. If each episode had three hours of content and told a self contained story, that could have helped by at least providing players with a complete product while they waited for the next episode. But a serialized story that may take 5 years to tell, that's asking a lot. I think very simply this was a growing experience for HL, and that there's a lot to learn here about deploying their resources. I think adding a mode to the game that included a narrative was a good idea, but in hindsight I think they went about it the wrong way.

[SpitztheGreat]

4 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

IMO it depends on waiting time between which parts of the story.

Simple example - I think that Game of Thrones series would have  been significantly less successful, if the first season was released with 1 year intervals between episodes - 10 years in total.

So, it is ok to wait a year or 2 between books or seasons of TV show. Wait a year between episodes or chapters, and you lose attachment to the characters, you forget details, and the story becomes mediocre until is finished. So main heroes instead of becoming your friends turn into rare acquaintances, whom you meet once a year.

In hindsight, you know what else may have made life easier for HL? Simplify the story by dropping the mystery element and make Wintermute focus on the survivors of Bear Island as they try to escape. I'm guilty of this myself, but I feel like too many times we expect some sort of mystery to drive the plot; and while that can be good I think it can add challenge to the writing process. I think if Hinterland had dropped that idea and just made this a story about surviving  the long dark and navigating the various survivors on the island, I think it would have been an easier story to write and execute.
 

[SpitztheGreat]

45 minutes ago, Dum_Gen said:

3 out of 5 episodes in - kinda too late to simplify the story don't you think?

At the same time I agree, I dont' see how the story can be organically wrapped up within 2 episodes.

That's why I said "In hindsight". It's a lesson to learn for the future. I hope there is a season 2, but if there is then it needs to go in a radically different direction. That's why I made the observation and suggestion, five self contained stories would be easier to write than 1 overarching story with mysterious/mystical elements.

The redux would have been the only opportunity to scratch the current formula and do something different, but I think at that point it was already too late.

This isn't really related to episodes 4 and 5, it's just a general comment, but your comment about the kickstarter reminded me. As someone that only discovered TLD in early 2019, I find it really interesting how the kickstarter is this subtly referenced thing that feels like ancient history. It kills me that so many backers failed to add their comments to their cairn.

Also, it would be interesting to know if episodes 4 and 5 are taking so long because the team knows that they have a lot of ground to cover. You're right, I don't think 6 hours of gameplay across two games is going to be enough to organically finish this story. Maybe the original idea was to leave it on a cliff hanger and come back for season 2; and maybe that idea has been scratched. If that's the case, then the next two games may have been redesigned to cover a lot more ground so that we get a satisfying conclusion in episode 5. The team really may have decided that they can't do another season like this.

Edited March 5, 2021 by SpitztheGreat

[manolitode]

On 3/4/2021 at 9:02 AM, SpitztheGreat said:

When you have something like a episodic narrative, it's very helpful to keep the momentum going with the audience. When episodes end on cliff hangers, people are engaged, they want to know what comes next, they're talking about the game/story/whatever to their friends, excitement builds, buzz around the product increases, this is the sense of momentum that I'm talking about. This keeps the audience engaged in the long off-period when there's no new content. But that can only last so long, and the length of time it lasts varies case by case. The longer between releases, the more momentum that is lost.

I think you're 100 % right that the time elapsed between releases can be critical, that the waiting time in itself isn't desirable and that it could as a consequence result in a smaller playerbase. Though I disagree with your previous notion that the audience has disconnected with Wintermute or that it "won't survive 15 months of radio silence". The occasional waves of discontent online about the waiting time is a proof to the opposite, a lot of players still care for the story and can't wait to see it unfold. And even though it's not very helpful to compare a videogame to a Netflix series (brace for a long parenthesis: though the time of entertainment in a 6-10 episode series is about the same as a TLD episode but obviously that depends on your playstyle), or a videogame to a videogame for that matter, a lot of other stories have survived (and thrived) just as long or way longer waiting times. That's just a fact.

22 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

IMO it depends on waiting time between which parts of the story. [...] So, it is ok to wait a year or 2 between books or seasons of TV show. Wait a year between episodes or chapters, and you lose attachment to the characters, you forget details, and the story becomes mediocre until is finished. So main heroes instead of becoming your friends turn into rare acquaintances, whom you meet once a year.

Recurring episodes with an even interval would be preferable for sure. Speaking of "episodes", I don't want to make this about semantics but I'm curious if the fact that the Wintermute chapters are called "episodes" may have contributed to the playerbase expecting more frequent releases. The word "episode" signals a certain frequency and extent, yet there are full seasons of other games out there that is completed within about the same time as a TLD episode. The John Wick movies have been released every 2-3 years and they're called "chapters". The concept of episodes, seasons, chapters etc are flexible and don't adhere to a given timeframe, it totally depends on the context. I know plenty won't agree but I find it helpful to adjust my expectations to the context, which in The Long Dark world based on previous releases means expecting a couple of years between episodes.

[SpitztheGreat]

21 minutes ago, manolitode said:

I think you're 100 % right that the time elapsed between releases can be critical, that the waiting time in itself isn't desirable and that it could as a consequence result in a smaller playerbase. Though I disagree with your previous notion that the audience has disconnected with Wintermute or that it "won't survive 15 months of radio silence". The occasional waves of discontent online about the waiting time is a proof to the opposite, a lot of players still care for the story and can't wait to see it unfold. And even though it's not very helpful to compare a videogame to a Netflix series (brace for a long parenthesis: though the time of entertainment in a 6-10 episode series is about the same as a TLD episode but obviously that depends on your playstyle), or a videogame to a videogame for that matter, a lot of other stories have survived (and thrived) just as long or way longer waiting times. That's just a fact.

Recurring episodes with an even interval would be preferable for sure. Speaking of "episodes", I don't want to make this about semantics but I'm curious if the fact that the Wintermute chapters are called "episodes" may have contributed to the playerbase expecting more frequent releases. The word "episode" signals a certain frequency and extent, yet there are full seasons of other games out there that is completed within about the same time as a TLD episode. The John Wick movies have been released every 2-3 years and they're called "chapters". The concept of episodes, seasons, chapters etc are flexible and don't adhere to a given timeframe, it totally depends on the context. I know plenty won't agree but I find it helpful to adjust my expectations to the context, which in The Long Dark world based on previous releases means expecting a couple of years between episodes.

You seem very determined that everything is going well with Wintermute. The game has been in development for going on four years, with probably another two years still in front of it. That's close to six years for five episodes. Is this really ideal to you? That's an honest question. Because to me, this development process is less than ideal. I mean, sure, we're on the official forums so the people here are the most dedicated fans around- but if Wintermute had been developed more efficiently, imagine how much bigger the game would be. That may not matter to you, but I'm sure HL wouldn't have minded more players buying their game. And if Wintermute had more momentum, word of mouth about Wintermute may have carried it to even greater sales. If you're honestly ok with all of your entertainment needing four to six years to tell their 15 hour story, then we're so radically far apart that I don't think we'll ever agree on much. To me, very few things are worth waiting years for and Wintermute does not rise to that standard.

 

Also, I feel like this is important, I'm a guy that waited 20 years for Shenmue III. I can be patient. But maybe there was a lesson there in Shenmue III that sometimes it's best just to move on.

[manolitode]

40 minutes ago, SpitztheGreat said:

The game has been in development for going on four years, with probably another two years still in front of it. That's close to six years for five episodes. Is this really ideal to you? 

No, I don't see how it would be ideal and I don't make the case that it is.

40 minutes ago, SpitztheGreat said:

That may not matter to you, but I'm sure HL wouldn't have minded more players buying their game. And if Wintermute had more momentum, word of mouth about Wintermute may have carried it to even greater sales.

The way I understood the developers' posts in another topic this week it is survival that draws most new players. Maybe because Wintermute release has been slow enough to discourage new players, but it could also be the other way around, that Wintermute development has been assigned less resources since it doesn't draw enough new players. It sounds reasonable that momentum would have had some effect on sales, I won't debate that. I just don't think that 15 months without a new release kills most narratives as you suggested earlier.

40 minutes ago, SpitztheGreat said:

If you're honestly ok with all of your entertainment needing four to six years to tell their 15 hour story, then we're so radically far apart that I don't think we'll ever agree on much. To me, very few things are worth waiting years for and Wintermute does not rise to that standard.

15 hours for 5 episodes? I spent at least 15 on the first 2 episodes. Anyway, yeah I'm okay with waiting out of habit. As for agreeing or not agreeing, I don't see why we couldn't agree on other issues just because we have different attitudes toward entertainment release intervals.

Edited March 5, 2021 by manolitode

[Stinky socks]

Cyberpunk 2077 was in development for about 9 years, but when it was released, people went nuts. EVERYBODY was playing the game, even though it was dragged and dragged and delayed million times...

What I think is happening, episodes 4 and 5 will be of epic proportions. There will be lots of activity. Hundreds of NPCs, animal attacks, many buildings, the whole atmosphere will be so big, it will be overwhelming!!

The story will begin to climax rapidly and the resolution will be so satisfying, we will all want to keep replaying it over and over again! Just the thought alone makes me excited beyond capacity!

[Admin]

As we've said in the past, and in other threads this week, Episodes Four and Five are in progress. We will have more information about Episode Four coming relatively soon. Both Episodes will be completed and delivered as part of our commitment to The Long Dark players.

[RegentRelic]

If Raphaels increased activity on the forums is any indication they are done with the story and mechanical design and now they just need to make it stable as well as do things like cutscenes and voice acting. Maybe their weird though and those things first.

[JohnnyZer0]

7 hours ago, RegentRelic said:

If Raphaels increased activity on the forums is any indication they are done with the story and mechanical design and now they just need to make it stable as well as do things like cutscenes and voice acting. Maybe their weird though and those things first.

I am pretty sure they are almost done with that by now and just need to make marketing materials such as trailers, splash arts, and so on to keep us entertained for the next few months while they polish up the content and fix the remaining bugs.

[Irish Paddy]

said it before and ill say it again - this game reflects real world events - they are not waiting to finish episode 4 , they are waiting for real world events to catch up to the story

[Arizen]

Just finished episode 3.  I guess nobody knows when episodes 4 & 5 will be released ?   
 

love this game btw.  Really epic. 

[Swp76]

Did holger fade into the long dark yet          finish the game already damn canucks

 

[Sashamorning]

...and we're still waiting for Half-Life 3. At least episode 4 is out now.