stay puft

new wolf behavior

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Hi,

Can anyone explain how the new wolf behavior is suppose to work? 

now every time a wolf locks on to me and i drop bait they just turn around and walk away, is this the way it works now?

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They will "teleport" the decoy to their mouths now.  Changed with Elegy.

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1 hour ago, hozz1235 said:

They will "teleport" the decoy to their mouths now.  Changed with Elegy.

Do you happen to know if they did this on purpose? or is this something their still working out?

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53 minutes ago, stay puft said:

Do you happen to know if they did this on purpose? or is this something their still working out?

It is intentional, although the way it was implemented has made it feel like a bug to many people, judging by the amount of people posting on the forums and asking about it. 

The goal was to prevent players from using bait as a way to kill wolves easily. 

 

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They did purposefully change the way baiting works to prevent people from baiting, and headshotting the wolves. They are still tweaking it though. 

 

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If a wolf is stalking you and you aim a weapon at it, it switches its behaviour and starts charging at you.

Is there a reason they can't also tie that behaviour to when a wolf is reacting to bait? That way bait would work as a distraction, but pointing a gun at the wolf would nullify your bait.

The only thing I can think of is that it might have broader implications, like aggroing wolves that are snacking on deer/rabbits or otherwise going about their business. 

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@LucidFugue, Great idea! Wolf already knows gun=bad. 

Id honestly like to see the wolf either run and snag the meat while carrying it in its mouth, or maybe only take the meat if you're x distance away from it so youd better drop the meat and run. 

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I too have experienced the new wolf behaviour  when they get to about 50 metres away then they turn and run away.  This I thought might be realistic, considering the TLD opening statement that wolves don't usually attack people.   This behaviour have advantages and disadvantages.   It means that it is much harder to kill a wolf for meat but it results in fewer wolf attacks.

However in the Stalker Survival game that I have been playing recently I have been having many attacks from packs of four wolves.   These attacks have been harder to repel and the second or third wolf attack from the pack would often kill me.  (I backup my saves so this has not been an end-of-game.) 

 

 

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4 hours ago, peteloud said:

This behaviour have advantages and disadvantages.   It means that it is much harder to kill a wolf for meat but it results in fewer wolf attacks

This is what I'm experiencing (interloper)

when I drop bait now it's like the wolf doesn't remember why he started walking towards me and just turns around and ignores me (even though I'm clearly visible to him) and the bait isn't being touched.

I guess I'll just keep my fingers crossed and hope they will eventually tweak it.

 

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While I do like to hunt wolves occasionally (mainly because I can't stand the feeling of a wolf roaming the area I'm in and surprising me), I have changed my tactic in response to HL's update.  I try to line myself up in a way that the wolf can't "zig zag" as much when charging me.  This makes it easier to line up a shot. 

May be a coincidence, but do you guys think wolves aren't zig-zagging as much in general?  I.e. it seems like they are charging in a straighter line?

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My thoughts on the topic:

* I've seen it discussed that decoy is an actual hunting term meaning to lure in prey while hunting. However, I suspect the association of that specific use of the term and that this game employs hunting (and that this tactic was hunting wolves) to be partly coincidence.  I bet the dev team more likely considered "decoy" to be in the military sense like fighter planes and such - "deceptive device used to draw an enemy away from a more important target" (Britannica Online).  So it's a semantics situation with that. Especially since decoys in hunting are often used for like deer and bird hunting and the wolves here are even more aggressive than your average wolf.

* The current implementation of the wolves drifting away and for some recently the bait disappearing, is unsatisfying to most.  It feels a little off-putting even for those who are fine with the change.  But as others have said I think it's still in development especially with a large survival update coming up.

* The current implementation was likely done because it was the most streamlined correction.  It allows the use of the decoy as a running away tactic to function with no other changes - if you're running from a wolf you don't notice the decoy was teleported or the wolf just started ambling around.  And it fixed the head shotting by not drawing them in.  I think it's sort of that simple - it was the most straightforward fix for them.  Though it may not ultimately be the best.

* It's difficult to think of a version that fits the vision of allowing the running away but removing the headshot play.  Having them immediately charge is better with more risk...but I think skilled players will still be able to quick shot with an advantage.  I think the distance thing mentioned earlier might be the best.  I see a wolf literally ignoring the bait if a player is not far enough away from bait.  They just keep pursuing as normal (stalk or charge).  For players using the bait as they want in running away, you don't have to just sprint for distance ASAP - I think you can have the wolf turn around from player pursuit and go back to the bait once the distance is achieved.  This all makes narrative sense to me as initially the wolf would ignore the bait and see the player as more prominent (and threatening their bait like a kill).  Once distance is achieved the wolf would go for the "easier prey" (the bait), especially when a player is not close enough to threaten its ownership.  The required distance would make a headshot difficult.  And getting in closer for a better headshot after the distance would be achieved would be tricky - might lose the bait and have to catch up.  That said, I think the implementation is not easy easy, but doable, but the trickiest part is players being on the edge of the required distance fiddling with the wolf response.  If you make the wolf amble/jog back to the bait, a player could still pursue for the "exploit" (as they see it).  I think the best change would have the wolf immediately charge if the player re-enters the distance within a certain amount of time after a bait instance.  This is my best idea currently for a fix that's both compelling and fits what they are wanting.

* It's clear they are really tinkering with wolf behavior.  This decoy fix and there's a survival update coming and wolf packs down the road.  Also devs have reacted positively when asked about mixing up patrol routes and such.  I think this is something they are interested in.  

* For some the game is easy now, even on Interloper.  That probably chafes the devs to no end. :)  You see some running such things as the Relentless Night Mod to get their fix, with its permanight and -115 temps.  Or things like Outerloper and Deadman.  While on one hand you can think if someone has achieved enough hours for this to be the case, the game has already fulfilled its purpose.  But I like how TLD was great early and can be fun if experienced as well, in a different way.  And it's possible by what I'm seeing and if I'm an optimist some difficulty will be increased by changing some of the game systems itself, not by just making certain current settings more difficult or amped up/down.  Or just by pure addition or subtraction.  Some of the wolf changes could be indicative of this.  I certainly hope so.  I was fine with the bait hunting just because that's how I saw the game as a best practice, but I'm open if there are changes that will ultimately work better, for newer, moderate and experienced players.  There's also the issue of late, late game boredom in survival and the ability to survive for very long times.  I think these are sort of incorporated in this, possibly, as well.

Best of luck everyone on surviving!

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To add some clarity to this topic -- with v1.62 we fixed a handful of issues around Wolf behaviour and decoys -- 

 

Notably:

* Fixed an issue that caused Wolf pathfinding to become confused after a decoy was dropped in certain scenarios.
* Fixed the distance which Wolves can grab decoys.
* Fixed an issue that prevented players from dropping a decoy from the Radial Menu.

 

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When all is said and done (regardless of how I might personally feel) I accept the game for what it is.  If the Hinterland teams makes changes to their game, them I'm fine with whatever they choose to implement.  If nothing else it's a new dynamic to adapt to, which for me keeps the game interesting.  So far, my way of adapting is to not try to use decoys when hunting wolves anymore.  I've focused on getting better at leading them to level ground and coaxing them to charge me when I'm ready to engage (in other words I maintain control of the confrontation).

Perhaps one day soon I will try to use some ruined gut, just to experiment with the new mechanic.  I think Raph indicated that the decoy was initially intended as a chance for escape and not as a hunting tactic... and I think this changes just brings it closer to that original intention.  Raph considered it an exploit, so it got changed. 

:coffee::fire::coffee:
It's always rough at first when things get changed up... there were people who where super upset about the cooking system when it was implemented, but as we got used to it I think most would agree it came out objectively better. 

It's also possible that this change may get tweaked and adjusted more in the future, after all this game is still evolving and growing.  :) 

Edited by ManicManiac
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"Getting used to things" goes a lot of ways I think.  I remember when I first saw you could just plop that decoy down and take a shot it felt a little hokey and easy to me.  I had already used one for fleeing (one of my favorite times of playing initially included one of these escapes), and this was the original main/only intention.  But I got used to using it for hunting and then it felt natural to the "how to play" canon and didn't feel hokey any longer.  So this takes me back to my original evaluation a bit, and I can sort of see what they're thinking.

I feel just "okay" with how it is now, I guess.  I'm sure I would accept it and get used to it.  Waiting to see how things play out isn't an unacceptance, though,. because it's a new change and there's an update coming out soonish, and with those facts it seems like it's a situation that's actively being evaluated and updated (even if maybe this specifically doesn't get change, which, who knows could be true).

We can get used to most anything but I know they want it objectively good as well.  But I know people get ruffled with change only for change's sake.

I'm hoping they do add a bunch of updated wolf stuff.  Even changes to things like the patrol routes as I mentioned.  It's an amazing game that balances sort of this immersion/narrative/realism with a logic game of choice/risk-reward/push your luck.  I know if they change some things it will be a delicate balance as well as some added variability here and there (say with the patrol routes) could actually increase choice making (risk/reward, etc) (and immersion), but if you add too many variables and consequence, it will flip suddenly into making choice less involved because it's too random.  Plus there's a satisfaction curve with learning information you don't want to completely ruin.  It was satisfying at one point to learn where the most dangerous spots on the maps were. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by dbmurph22

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In summary, my feelings are three-fold on the changes to decoy placement.

First, it makes hunting wolves undeniably more difficult. Perhaps this means the previous method was too easy?

Second, it makes wolves ironically less dangerous overall. Carrying meat and dropping it as a decoy is now an easy way to break a wolf's tracking. Quickly picking it back up again removes any resource expenditure.

Third, the range at which a wolf can grab a decoy is poorly implemented. Items teleporting over long distances is video game logic. The game establishes a distance for item interaction through the player's viewpoint. Having wolves break this established distance is jarring to the player's perspective of the game world.

Just my two cents.

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It's fine. I don't like gratuitously killing animals but obviously I do to survive. At least I utilise all of the kill. If I want or need a wolf coat, or if they threaten me then I will hunt them.

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I've been testing wolf reactions for the last couple of days and almost every time they acted very odd, half the time these wolves just ignore me completely once I drop a decoy and the other half they just pace back and forth (walk 5 steps forward turn around walk 5 steps in a constant loop) the second I drop my decoy the wolf forgets about me(Decoy stays on ground I have not seen the teleporting decoy that other people mention)

As for the idea of the change I get that they don't want people to head shot wolves that are focused on a decoy but now when a wolf detects you our only option is to run or risk a struggle which isn't always an option and I feel like that is going to get annoying real fast and now that I think about it with this change dropping a decoy or starting a fire/using flare/flare gun all do the same thing.(get the wolf away from you)... so if we can't hunt with decoy's why even carry them around?

I'm sure I will eventually get used to it and seems like maybe they are still ironing this out but overall I think this will create less wolf interaction.

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22 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

When all is said and done (regardless of how I might personally feel) I accept the game for what it is.  If the Hinterland teams makes changes to their game, them I'm fine with whatever they choose to implement.  If nothing else it's a new dynamic to adapt to, which for me keeps the game interesting.  So far, my way of adapting is to not try to use decoys when hunting wolves anymore.  I've focused on getting better at leading them to level ground and coaxing them to charge me when I'm ready to engage (in other words I maintain control of the confrontation).

Perhaps one day soon I will try to use some ruined gut, just to experiment with the new mechanic.  I think Raph indicated that the decoy was initially intended as a chance for escape and not as a hunting tactic... and I think this changes just brings it closer to that original intention.  Raph considered it an exploit, so it got changed. 

:coffee::fire::coffee:
It's always rough at first when things get changed up... there were people who where super upset about the cooking system when it was implemented, but as we got used to it I think most would agree it came out objectively better. 

It's also possible that this change may get tweaked and adjusted more in the future, after all this game is still evolving and growing.  :) 

Well said.. this is almost exactly how I feel about it. Changes to the game are exciting, it gives us something new to learn and keeps the game interesting. I remember people getting upset about the cooking change, the sprain change.. hell I even remember people getting mad about the radial menu. You can't please everyone. Not to get all philosophical, but change is part of life. The sooner you accept that, the easier it is to adapt to whatever life (or TLD) throws at you.

Personally, I have been using decoys mainly to break pathing for wolf avoidance if they are too close. When I want to take a wolf out, I try to use a path breaker like a rock combined with a decoy to draw him in. If I don't have anything to climb on (trees are out, they can climb them now!), then much like @ManicManiac does, I am getting to flat ground, crouching and backing up while aiming, and hoping for that sweet headshot. It's been about 60/40 with that technique so far lol.

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1 hour ago, stay puft said:

As for the idea of the change I get that they don't want people to head shot wolves that are focused on a decoy but now when a wolf detects you our only option is to run or risk a struggle which isn't always an option and I feel like that is going to get annoying real fast and now that I think about it with this change dropping a decoy or starting a fire/using flare/flare gun all do the same thing.(get the wolf away from you)... so if we can't hunt with decoy's why even carry them around?

I'm sure I will eventually get used to it and seems like maybe they are still ironing this out but overall I think this will create less wolf interaction.

Having the only options after wolf detection to run or risk a struggle is the point I think.  Many don't see a negative that you can't have a low risk encounter with the wolf after they detect you (and extremely high risk for them).  You can still try to take them out after detection (with risk) or hunt them pre-detection at greater distance. You can get somewhat close with crouching.   There's some difference with decoys re flares, flare gun, and fire.  Flares only sort of keep them at bay but still aggressive (unless changed); flare guns are not common; fire's take time and can fail.  Also with decoy there's to be a cost involved.  However, if that's now changed, I think that's a weakness in the current implementation.  They may be between things with stopping the teleportation because it wasn't believable, but now keeping the decoy present doesn't have the cost any longer (as Jimmy said) and loses in gaming theory.

3 minutes ago, jhickie said:

Well said.. this is almost exactly how I feel about it. Changes to the game are exciting, it gives us something new to learn and keeps the game interesting. I remember people getting upset about the cooking change, the sprain change.. hell I even remember people getting mad about the radial menu. You can't please everyone. Not to get all philosophical, but change is part of life. The sooner you accept that, the easier it is to adapt to whatever life (or TLD) throws at you.

Personally, I have been using decoys mainly to break pathing for wolf avoidance if they are too close. When I want to take a wolf out, I try to use a path breaker like a rock combined with a decoy to draw him in. If I don't have anything to climb on (trees are out, they can climb them now!), then much like @ManicManiac does, I am getting to flat ground, crouching and backing up while aiming, and hoping for that sweet headshot. It's been about 60/40 with that technique so far lol.

I think it's a strong positive they continually work on the game and are willing to tweak things.  I could work with the new bait mechanic but it feels a little funky.  If you're using "bait" to stop wolves in their tracks and to break stalking then maybe change the object to a smell they dislike.  Fruitcake or something. Or maybe we start dropping some of the other food and rename the decoy to "repellent."  Maybe the tomato soup or some other harvestable!  I'm only being half serious.  ALTHOUGH, there have always been discussions about being able to story meat in the snow without worry of other animals taking them.  Maybe with changing the bait mechanic it fixes that too - the event caused them to hate and repelled by any meat anywhere harvested by humans

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14 minutes ago, dbmurph22 said:

Having the only options after wolf detection to run or risk a struggle is the point I think.  Many don't see a negative that you can't have a low risk encounter with the wolf after they detect you (and extremely high risk for them).  You can still try to take them out after detection (with risk) or hunt them pre-detection at greater distance. You can get somewhat close with crouching.   There's some difference with decoys re flares, flare gun, and fire.  Flares only sort of keep them at bay but still aggressive (unless changed); flare guns are not common; fire's take time and can fail.  Also with decoy there's to be a cost involved.  However, if that's now changed, I think that's a weakness in the current implementation.  They may be between things with stopping the teleportation because it wasn't believable, but now keeping the decoy present doesn't have the cost any longer (as Jimmy said) and loses in gaming theory.

Thank you for your input.

I feel taking away options the player has in a sandbox game is not always a good thing, yes you can still hunt wolves by crouching but if your allowed to crouch ten feet away from them and aim without them noticing you then why have them lock on to you when aiming after dropping a decoy? yeah my mistake about the flares but flare guns are easy to find and a high fire skill will start your fire most of the time, I know this is a game but baiting animals is a real thing I can understand that maybe we shouldn't be able to aim at them from super close but if you drop a decoy and back up far enough plus crouch I feel they shouldn't notice you, just like how they don't notice you when you just crouch up to them without a decoy.

If they tweak it a little I'm sure opinion will change... guess I'll have to wait to see what if any major changes come with the December update. 

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On 11/7/2019 at 11:05 AM, hozz1235 said:

May be a coincidence, but do you guys think wolves aren't zig-zagging as much in general?  I.e. it seems like they are charging in a straighter line?

I first noticed this during 4DON when I went on my Day 3 wolf assault and was blowing them away by the dozens.  They were polite little Bond villains, approaching one at a time and always in a straight line.  I don't frequently attack wolves myself either, opting to avoid or distract and conserve ammo.  So I don't know how recent this is.  It's possible the regular wolves were tuned to be easier to shoot, as a balance to how timberwolves just zip all over the place like a swarm of hornets.

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1 hour ago, stay puft said:

Thank you for your input.

I feel taking away options the player has in a sandbox game is not always a good thing, yes you can still hunt wolves by crouching but if your allowed to crouch ten feet away from them and aim without them noticing you then why have them lock on to you when aiming after dropping a decoy? yeah my mistake about the flares but flare guns are easy to find and a high fire skill will start your fire most of the time, I know this is a game but baiting animals is a real thing I can understand that maybe we shouldn't be able to aim at them from super close but if you drop a decoy and back up far enough plus crouch I feel they shouldn't notice you, just like how they don't notice you when you just crouch up to them without a decoy.

If they tweak it a little I'm sure opinion will change... guess I'll have to wait to see what if any major changes come with the December update. 

Good thoughts.  I agree re: options, but they have to be good options and not overlapping as even some of the good points you make here - like the fire. You're right there...I can see some overlap and the flare gun still takes some work at times, but it's out there and not "rare" with known locations.  But the past one was too easy.  But as you say this one is weird.  I think we are pretty close on it.  You can get really oddly close while crouching.

Honestly, I couldn't mind if the whole decoy thing was scrapped altogether.  You pointed out the overlap. If I had my way I think the decoy and traditional baiting after engagement would both be gone.  But then the wolves would go after meat on the ground AND on person.  You could bait them in by having it on the ground before engaging.  But then you have to fix the meat in the snow thing - maybe a craftable container that has limited space.  So then hunting becomes dropping a meat on the ground and waiting for them - for good game theory there needs to be some risk so maybe it's you don't know where they will come from or if you get multiple.  However, someone could do it in a defensible location.  I don't know - those would need solved and it seems like more legit baiting then sort of taming them in the moment with bait after growling.  I don't even know if that's good.  Just spitballing.

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I've now killed about 50 wolves since the last update and have adapted to the new behavior.. With that being said I still feel the old way was better, Baiting to get a head shot may have been an "Exploit" but it was a choice not forced.

I honestly feel it would be better if baiting worked the old way but with some minor changes having the wolf detect you based off distance not based off if you aim at them, maybe there's a technical reason why this wouldn't work though.

Another thing that could possibly be done assuming timber wolves are coming to survival eventually is to have only the timber wolves ignore a decoy but normal wolves would act the way they used to that way baiting is still a choice the players can decide to do or not.

 

Edited by stay puft
can't spell
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17 hours ago, stay puft said:

I've now killed about 50 wolves since  . . .

I wish that when people write about their achievements or difficulties they would mention the level at which they are playing.  It is the same with finding lots of loot or having problems finding loot.   An achievement or difficulty at one level might be trivial but at another level could be a great feat or great problem.

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7 hours ago, peteloud said:

I wish that when people write about their achievements or difficulties they would mention the level at which they are playing.  It is the same with finding lots of loot or having problems finding loot.   An achievement or difficulty at one level might be trivial but at another level could be a great feat or great problem.

Sorry about that.

I'm currently playing and 600+ day Interloper run

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