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MueckE

EP3 review

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Somehow i hate to be the one, but maybe there will be some improvement (as it happend with redux)

When it comes to cinematic, graphics and music, the long Dark is just amazing - no question about it. These things are something that have improved basicly with every update.

When it comes to storymode itself it's the opposite. I felt reminded of playing EP1 in 2018. For some reason, Hinterland is not able to tell their story in an interesting way. Either you have to listen to vague, cryptic and boring monologues or you have to read letters that are of the same caliber - and even that is quite hard when you can't zoom in on the text because Hinterland decided that there resolution and there eyes must be good for everyone. I really would like to know something about the story. I can't say the story is bad or good because after EP3 i still don't know the story or what this is all about. The problem isn't the story, the problem is how the story is been told (or not).

Then there is really bad game design. Everything feels forced and not natural at all - and that's in contrast to the believable and immersive landscape. Oh yeah, there is a path the player most likely will take, let's place timberwolves there .... surprise surprise. Why do you have to rescue 3 survivors, not 1 or 2? ... to stretch the playtime? Why do i have to replace 3 fuses and not 4? Why do i have to click an optionbutton within a dialogue although i only can click one and don't have a choice? Why are there no choices at all? What exactly is the reason to have a list of people on the plane and there IDs when they still stay meaningless characters? For example, when you check a surivor in the hall he/she could quickly tell you something reasonable why you, as human beeing and a doctor, should go and take a look at the plane (just like the insulin - this is how it works). Everytime the phone rings, i pray that that someone else is on the other side then Molly just because using this, all phones will ring and in that situation ofc nobody is interested in using the phone :) Also it feels so obviously forced that the small woman is carrying the survivors through the blizzards of PV just after bearly escaping death herself - reminds me of Rambo 34.

Didn't we talk about the fetch quest thing already after EP1 and what went wrong? Oh boy, here we go again ....

Yes, the are decisions i think where right - like placing the crashside at skeeter's and not forcing us on top of all to climb the summit in timberwolf. On the other side i wonder where the new map is that was announced? I also thought we would play the events of EP1+2 from Astrids perspective? So why aren't we in Milton facing convicts and all the horrors that were teased all the time?

So we have a reproduction of "get medicine to rescue someone from death - EP2" and "get food and firewood or all die - EP1". What's the point? What's new? No storyprogress, no improvement in gameplay, bad gameplay design, repetetive tasks, no intense moments, just boredom.  

 

Even more disappointing is, that Hinterland hasn't learned from the EP1-desaster and in the best case we can wait another 2 years for an EP3 Redux.

 

I'm sorry that this is so negative. I just want to add, that there is no intend of beeing rude, post it on reddit, to troll or to hate or all these things. I'm a player of the first hour, a long time follower, still love TlD and this is an honest feedback.

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I haven't completed the episode yet, but I found both negative and positive things about it.

Story: I wish we've been given more solid hints as to what's going on. It really is a notch too vague. However, The Long Dark is very good at creating this mysterious atmosphere. So, this vagueness is forgiven to some extent. The atmosphere is the most powerful and my fav factor in this game. I believe it has been preserved. I still very much enjoy the setting! :)

Quests: I'm good with the classical go-see and fetch quests. I really liked Grey Mother quest where we needed to get her food and supplies. I'm fine with Astrid doing a similar quest for other people. It makes me feel useful and gives a sense of beating an encroaching danger. Blizzards are good if you have enough fuel and food and feel cozy inside. Though, PV IS big and there is a bit too much walking involved for my linking back to the approximate area where you've already been. It's like oh shoot I found a piece of paper at church for a quest and it told me to go back to this far crash spot where I've already been twice.

Now, here is the absolute terror of a quest line: while carrying Gwen was painful, it was a driven quest. I appreciated its purpose, though, I died the most at this stage. But, finding three more survivors and doing exactly the same thing was just beyond bad. I seriously hoped that I'd just find corpses so I won't have to bother dragging anyone. Speaking of dragging. It is SLOW. slow slow sloooooooooow! And PV is BIG, big big big! And it's just boring and slow and I felt like kicking Astrid in the rear to make her walk faster. It makes zero sense that all three have managed to get away from the crash site, built fire, found a secure spot and then passed out and planned to die. Couldn't they have been scripted to at least be able to walk at a regular pace beside her or leaning onto her shoulder. I'm not asking for sprint, but just move faster, this is like pulling teeth. Having one quest where you carried Gwen, was tough and ENOUGH. Deal with the others easier so you don't have to drag them. I don't even care if Astrid finds them, wakes them and they vanish into thin air, after she treats injuries and explains a path to safety, and they auto reappear in the Hall as supposedly saved. Like uhoh the wolves are attacking right after I explained everything! Run for your life while I hold them off! Even this is better then dragging them three more times.

That being said, I've always known that Astrid is awesome and I'm so excited that she's a grand match for Will! :D

One other thing I really liked. I found myself struggling with the natural elements in PV. Especially when carrying survivors, I had to stop to warm up. I played on hardened survivor and with the first 2 episodes I found the resources still too easy to obtain and the weather not biting enough. This has been addressed with ep3. It's not too hard, but harder than then first two episodes and I liked that. I did come close to almost kicking the bucket due to nature. When I found one of the guys, it  was getting dark and I was closer to Molly's. On the way, right after a pack had beaten me up pretty badly, a blizzard suddenly started to boot as soon as the wolves ran off. My health dropped into red when I dragged my feet to the door only to find out that blasted woman had locked it. Luckily the basement was still available, but I did nearby kick the bucket right there freezing my hide off.

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31 minutes ago, tulkawen said:

I haven't completed the episode yet, but I found both negative and positive things about it.

Story: I wish we've been given more solid hints as to what's going on. It really is a notch too vague. However, The Long Dark is very good at creating this mysterious atmosphere. So, this vagueness is forgiven to some extent. The atmosphere is the most powerful and my fav factor in this game. I believe it has been preserved. I still very much enjoy the setting! :)

Quests: I'm good with the classical go-see and fetch quests. I really liked Grey Mother quest where we needed to get her food and supplies. I'm fine with Astrid doing a similar quest for other people. It makes me feel useful and gives a sense of beating an encroaching danger. Blizzards are good if you have enough fuel and food and feel cozy inside. Though, PV IS big and there is a bit too much walking involved for my linking back to the approximate area where you've already been. It's like oh shoot I found a piece of paper at church for a quest and it told me to go back to this far crash spot where I've already been twice.

Now, here is the absolute terror of a quest line: while carrying Gwen was painful, it was a driven quest. I appreciated its purpose, though, I died the most at this stage. But, finding three more survivors and doing exactly the same thing was just beyond bad. I seriously hoped that I'd just find corpses so I won't have to bother dragging anyone. Speaking of dragging. It is SLOW. slow slow sloooooooooow! And PV is BIG, big big big! And it's just boring and slow and I felt like kicking Astrid in the rear to make her walk faster. It makes zero sense that all three have managed to get away from the crash site, built fire, found a secure spot and then passed out and planned to die. Couldn't they have been scripted to at least be able to walk at a regular pace beside her or leaning onto her shoulder. I'm not asking for sprint, but just move faster, this is like pulling teeth. Having one quest where you carried Gwen, was tough and ENOUGH. Deal with the others easier so you don't have to drag them. I don't even care if Astrid finds them, wakes them and they vanish into thin air, after she treats injuries and explains a path to safety, and they auto reappear in the Hall as supposedly saved. Like uhoh the wolves are attacking right after I explained everything! Run for your life while I hold them off! Even this is better then dragging them three more times.

That being said, I've always known that Astrid is awesome and I'm so excited that she's a grand match for Will! :D

One other thing I really liked. I found myself struggling with the natural elements in PV. Especially when carrying survivors, I had to stop to warm up. I played on hardened survivor and with the first 2 episodes I found the resources still too easy to obtain and the weather not biting enough. This has been addressed with ep3. It's not too hard, but harder than then first two episodes and I liked that. I did come close to almost kicking the bucket due to nature. When I found one of the guys, it  was getting dark and I was closer to Molly's. On the way, right after a pack had beaten me up pretty badly, a blizzard suddenly started to boot as soon as the wolves ran off. My health dropped into red when I dragged my feet to the door only to find out that blasted woman had locked it. Luckily the basement was still available, but I did nearby kick the bucket right there freezing my hide off.

Here's the thing though. Nobody KNOWS what's going on. And nobody knows about the impending apocalypse.

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22 minutes ago, Fuarian said:

Here's the thing though. Nobody KNOWS what's going on. And nobody knows about the impending apocalypse.

The way Astrid is all mysterious makes me think she knows something about the Apocalypse and perhaps she found out through her laboratory so somebody else knows something. That suitcase certainly doesn't have a cure for sneezing otherwise it wouldn't be so secret.

Edited by tulkawen

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I'm not done yet, I'm starting to collect other survivors..... I REALLY disliked carrying Gwen. Let's say Gwen is average size and weighs 145lb/67 kilos.  My pack (yes over-encumbered lol) weighed 89lbs/40 kg.  So I'm a small woman in a blizzard with prowling timber wolves carrying  234lbs/106 kilos over rough terrain for quite a long distance. 

Nope.  Big nope.  No way.  A craftable sled-thing from the bits around the crash would have been much more realistic.

It's so far beyond physically feasible and I know what it is like to schlep heavy stuff around...... If our pack gets to 120lbs we literally cannot walk.  Gwen probably weighs more than that, PLUS the pack.... I felt so unpleasant doing that, immersion points a plus I guess, jeez I really don't want to do that three more times.  AND Gwen stayed alive while I died from exposure looking for that last ID...I thought the fires in the plane parts would keep me warm but they did not.

Anyone who has kids will tell you that when they reach a certain weight- usually around three years old- you just can't really carry them around the same anymore.
Maybe I'm too practical.  I don't know.  The insulin bugged me too because I was gone a couple of days getting Gwen and our diabetic friend would have been dead.  Also one sharp for insulin...which would have been frozen-  idk, maybe I'm just no fun.  A good story- even fiction- even while playing around with normal reality- needs to be believable.  This just isn't. Medication of some type ok, but insulin is too unbelievable.

We find out that Astrid is a doctor, but a research doctor- not sees patients kind of doctor- but she's taking on the role of medical doctor so I'm a little confused by that.

Also when I got back to the community center the first thing I tried to do was talk to our Father friend, but he ignored me!  So I placed Gwen and he still wouldn't even acknowledge me until after I distributed IDs....... 

I do LOVE the map changes though.

Edited by stapeliad
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7 minutes ago, stapeliad said:

We find out that Astrid is a doctor, but a research doctor

That's sort of funny because Molly even comments on that as 'meh not the useful kind.' 😂

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1 minute ago, tulkawen said:

That's sort of funny because Molly even comments on that as 'meh not the useful kind.' 😂

yet Astrid turns out to be very useful after all!

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Maybe i can give a more specific example to explain what i mean by "bad storytelling".

So there are 3 more survivors - that's the information you get.

How do you know where they might be (on the map)?

Why did they left the crashside in the first place, alone, leaving the others behind?

There is the survivor close to signal hill/cave to Hydro Dam, no metter what, this survivor had to cross a paved road to get there. So why would someone not follow the road? He also HAD TO see buildings on his way. And what about the phone? Molly is calling all the time and all phones will ring.....

Why are all 3 survivors basicly in the same situation when you find them? One could be dead, another one never to be found (maybe later?), one is injured. You bring him/her back and right before you get to the hall he/she dies....... there are infinite ways to make something with it. Here, there was nothing, no creativity. Most importantly, what does all this has to do with your story, the main story? Everything that happens while playing has to do with the main story, with your story - if not, there is no reason to do it.

So you find a survivor (for whatever reason). Then the obvious thing would be to explain the first questions that come to mind in some (interesting) way. The survivor could tell you why he/she left, why crossed the road and buildings and passed them, who he/she is, what happened, why he/she now is dying, and so on. You don't find anybody, nobody can tell you something, but not here.

One more example is the map itself. It always was a strenghth of tld to navigate by landmarks and not having a map. Not only is there a map now, you also have an arrow that shows exactly where you are and where to go. Now, good storytelling would use the fact that you have to navigate without a map and implement this feature. Instead Hinterland went the "easy" way. That's why, regarding the survivor-mission, they want you to "search" a little bit and the survivors were placed somewhere hidden in a corner between rocks.

 

When you read a text, there is always in the beginning an general explenation about the text, a summarise that doesn't give too much away, and everything following is under this summarization and the title. The reason is to give transparancy and to motivate the reader to continue to read (in detail). The storytelling decisions made in TlD don't do this. There is no transparancy at all and therefor no motivation. The principles of storytelling are rejected not only in the generll meaning regarding the big story, but also widely for the "small" storys.

You can not dismiss basic rules of storytelling in "storymode", in an heavily storydriven game, in a narratively tight gameplay. It maybe could work for survival-mode because there the main story is "how long can you sirvive?" and that's it. But not here.

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4 hours ago, MueckE said:

Not only is there a map now, you also have an arrow that shows exactly where you are and where to go.

It would be an utter nightmare not having these quest spots marked on the map. I most assuredly wouldn't have any patience to blindly keep stumbling around in story mode with zero indicators. Story mode is entirely different from the sandbox mode because in sandbox you go wherever you want and in the story you need a fixated place and until you find it you'll just be frustrated having not even a general direction where to go. In sandbox I don't want a map. In story mode I most assuredly do and I want a big fat cross drawn on the map that shows where I should go.

 

4 hours ago, MueckE said:

Most importantly, what does all this has to do with your story, the main story?

In that case it wasn't necessary to even go for that airplane because it's none of your business, not just to a point where you need to save 3 others, no need for Gwen either.

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I really liked the loot tables canards to episode’a one and two. There was just so much stuff. Episode three still had plenty but there where a few points that supplies where running low. I wish we didn’t get every weapon though made it where non of them felt special and I liked the limited our options of episode two. I guess I got my wish when my bow and revolver got locked in the storage bin. Also I thought there would be some big reveal when we went in the basement at the community hall but we weren’t even aloud in. I liked the carrying survivors the first three times it might have just been the way I did it or how the weather and bears happens to be but every time was different.

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If i would take "only" the first trip to the crash with the reason to get the insulin and on your way back you carry a survivor and you have to face wolves - than this actually the good part of EP3. The changes to the mine were visually and gameplay wise also nice (cold water, electricity), but couldn't be enjoyed because you had to search 3 fuses (just because). Still no storyprogress, but in itself a short, enjoyable "quest". If you take away this "small" sequence, there is basicly nothing in EP3. I could imagine playing this as a challenge within survival mode, that would've been awesome. I just don't see it working in storymode because everything else you do, you experiencing is meaningless and boring, without any creativity. Sounds harsh, i know, but i've already played the whiteout challenge multible times in surival mode and also in EP1. I also already saved Jeremiah by bringing medicine and fulfilled the purpose of learning about the location of Hydro Dam.

For me personally, EP3 is even a bigger desaster then EP1 in it's first release. And that's just really sad after all what happend over the years.

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I like what you have to offer for the survivors. I also believe that there is not enough variability in the game.

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I really enjoyed Ep3 -- quite a bit more than Ep1 or Ep2.  The side quests felt more organic to the region, and more rewarding.  Just stumble over a clue and follow it's trail to some light lore and useful items.  I also liked carrying the survivors.  Yes, it was hard until I figured out the wolf pack mechanics, but to me it felt like survival with a worthwhile purpose -- my kind of challenge, and something I often miss when playing survival mode. 

TBH my only disappointment with the survivors arc was that the loved ones who begged me to find them never thanked me, or indeed expressed anything at all about their rescue.  Likewise, I felt the fed ex missions for Fr Tom could have been improved by having the health of folks at the town hall improve a little.  A few of them sitting up on their bedrolls with a small "thanks" dialog, for example.

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I enjoyed Episode 3.  Pleasant Valley is my least-favorite region in the entire game, but Episode 3 actually made me enjoy exploring it.  The side quests were more enjoyable than the main story IMO, because it felt more like I was doing the exploration on my own initiative, rather than fetch food and fuel for Grey Mother Orange Father.  The side quests really satisfied that urge I have to find good loot.  I do wish Astrid's experiences in Milton weren't just glossed over though.  I mean a doctor trying to rescue people from a burning building, gets attacked by a convict, stabs him with a knife, runs towards a partially collapsed tunnel and barely makes it through.  Yes...we know that's what happened.  But it would've been nice to see it from her perspective, in an intro cinematic.  That sense of mystery surrounding Astrid's research and the contents of the case is starting to get a little forced though.  Why is it so important that she reveal absolutely nothing about the contents?  I suspect it's some sort of experimental serum intended to treat a specific exotic virus, so why can't she just say something like that?  "It's case containing a very specific medicine to treat a very specific disease, the details of which aren't important right now."  That would be a perfectly satisfying answer--even if it is inherently a bit of a non-answer--that digests more easily than "Not gonna tell you anything, stop asking."

Anyway, there's always going to be something about a game, story, TV show, movie, etc. that doesn't completely agree with people.  The only way around that is to write your own game, story, etc. and even then the odds of being 100% satisfied with your OWN work are slim to none.  So rather than rag on things I didn't agree with, I'm simply going to say this.  I enjoyed episode 3, enough to play it twice in a row back to back.  The part I like the most is how the side quests are laid out in a logical fashion, making it far more likely that you would see all there is to see.  As opposed to like...in Episode 1 there is that note stuck to the base of the chimney of the burnt down school house, where the player has no real logical reason to ever look.   Also the quests offer some real solid rewards, instead of the more mundane supplies the hidden caches in Episodes 1 and 2 provided.  I also like the Timberwolf encounters, complete with their own unique background music that really fits the scene.  One thing that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me was that on the one hand, Astrid is willing to put her mission in Perseverence Mills on hold in order to help the plane crash victims, but on the other hand she is strangely ok with Molly killing the escaped convicts.  "I don't think revenge is the answer" is the closest she gets to "You can't just go around killing people because your husband was an ass and you regret your life."

Ehh.  The wolves will probably get her before too long anyway.

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On 10/25/2019 at 2:37 PM, tulkawen said:

The way Astrid is all mysterious makes me think she knows something about the Apocalypse and perhaps she found out through her laboratory so somebody else knows something. That suitcase certainly doesn't have a cure for sneezing otherwise it wouldn't be so secret.

How can a research doctor know about an incoming, world-ending solar flare? The reason why she acts so mysterious was answered in Episode 3. She had to sneak past lab security to get the medical cure out of the lab. 

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48 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

Ehh.  The wolves will probably get her before too long anyway.

I'm of the opinion that Molly is the unknown "she/her" that the convict who assaults Will at the end of Ep 2 is referring to.  We never see Molly wearing anything other than her overalls in Ep 3, but if you look closely at the splash screen art; the coat she is wearing looks an awful lot like the one that convict wore.  

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3 hours ago, Fuarian said:

How can a research doctor know about an incoming, world-ending solar flare? The reason why she acts so mysterious was answered in Episode 3. She had to sneak past lab security to get the medical cure out of the lab. 

They have the weather screw up research facility next door? :ph34r:

She could have overheard something wasn't meant for her ears, which is a lot more of an exciting theory then dull old we have screwed up the nature moralizing. It sounds to me more like some kind of big bad accident happened that contributed rather than it just happened just because it slowly did; an experiment going haywire.

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On 10/27/2019 at 6:03 PM, tulkawen said:

They have the weather screw up research facility next door? :ph34r:

She could have overheard something wasn't meant for her ears, which is a lot more of an exciting theory then dull old we have screwed up the nature moralizing. It sounds to me more like some kind of big bad accident happened that contributed rather than it just happened just because it slowly did; an experiment going haywire.

I mean... yeah just look at the game's kickstarter. It's a natural event.

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On 10/27/2019 at 10:43 AM, Ruruwawa said:

The side quests felt more organic to the region, and more rewarding.  Just stumble over a clue and follow it's trail to some light lore and useful items.

The best part about TLD's story sidequests is that they'd work perfectly in survival mode as well. They'd encourage new survivors to learn new locations off the beaten path. The reading itself would have to give hints as to where to look however, which brings me to:

On 10/26/2019 at 8:59 AM, tulkawen said:

It would be an utter nightmare not having these quest spots marked on the map.

While I don't think the map should be removed, I agree with @MueckE in the fact that the game misses an opportunity here, maybe a survivor says they split up from the main group somewhere around *insert landmark here* etc. Then it'd perfectly be acceptable to have that area be put on the map for reference since its knowledge your character has.

I believe quest markers and good maps are necessary for a modern and accessible game; however, there are other ways developers have lead players through quests:

Take Oblivion and Morrow-wind for example: The journals and characters gave you all the information you needed, environments hold clues and are designed to guide player's with lights, colors etc, these techniques allow people to stay in the game world and not the game UI.

Then Skyrim comes: Everything is just a floating quest marker you chase, your journal says next to nothing important, and the town guards don't even give you directions anymore. When you check your journal you feel like you're completing your medieval grocery list instead of reading clues and critically thinking where you need to go. 

I'm not against the map, it's story mode after all, I get frustrated and just want to be told what to do as well. But quests feel much more organic and less "gamey" when you can get actually usable information other than "Here, I'll mark it on your map."

 

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6 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

The journals and characters gave you all the information you needed, environments hold clues and are designed to guide player's with lights, colors etc, these techniques allow people to stay in the game world and not the game UI.

 

To clarify: In generell, you can use mapmarkers in games to navigate and sometimes it also is the better choice (ego shooter for example). But that's just not TlD, and never has been.

@tulkawen You are completly right, that it would be a nightmare playing the same Episode and just removing the mapmarker. But that actually tells you something about this Episode and not so much about using mapmarkers. It would be a nightmare because not only is there no creative way the search was implemented into the story via good storytelling, there is no storytelling in the first place. That's why i as a player can see immediatly why a mapmarker was implemented. That hurts the game and the immersion massivly.

It's also very unnecessary because navigating by landmarks is one of the big strenths of TlD, a core feature that provides a huge level of immersion in combination with the beatiful maps alone. 

Edited by MueckE
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On 10/27/2019 at 12:08 PM, Fuarian said:

How can a research doctor know about an incoming, world-ending solar flare? The reason why she acts so mysterious was answered in Episode 3. She had to sneak past lab security to get the medical cure out of the lab. 

I took a screenshot during one of the cinematic flashbacks which shows Astrid's ID badge.  It says "Seraphim: Sleep Research Centre".  She is clearly a researcher but the fact that it's sleep research makes me wonder what the hell is going on in Great Bear.

20191025021604_1.jpg

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On 10/29/2019 at 2:30 AM, PlayerPawn said:

I took a screenshot during one of the cinematic flashbacks which shows Astrid's ID badge.  It says "Seraphim: Sleep Research Centre".  She is clearly a researcher but the fact that it's sleep research makes me wonder what the hell is going on in Great Bear.

20191025021604_1.jpg

Probably some rare sleep disease condition. Like sleep apnea but more severe. Also interestingly the word Seraphim is biblical. Yet another bible reference here.

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On 10/27/2019 at 6:03 PM, tulkawen said:

They have the weather screw up research facility next door? :ph34r:

She could have overheard something wasn't meant for her ears, which is a lot more of an exciting theory then dull old we have screwed up the nature moralizing. It sounds to me more like some kind of big bad accident happened that contributed rather than it just happened just because it slowly did; an experiment going haywire.

She knows about HAARP 😮

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