Yavind

Do something about the wolves in challenge mode.

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Posted (edited)

Hi!
 First let me tell you that The Long Dark is in the top 5 list of the games I think are the best.

I have some suggestions to improve this game. Maybe I am wrong about my suggestions, then I apologize - do not take this solemnly, but would like to hear what you others think.

I make the list simple, so here it is:

* Don't let wolves follow me over almost the entire map.
* Wolves must be easier to scare away with light sources in challenge mode. (flares, bonfires, etc.)
* Reduce wolves / general wildlife by 10% in challange mode.
* There must be less things to find in challenge mode. 20% less items maybe?

[Maybe I will edit this post for an update]

What do you think? Do you have any other suggestions?

Hinterland must do something about the wolves because I think they ruin some of the in-game experience, especially in challenge mode.

Have a nice day.

- Yavind.

Edited by Yavind

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@Yavind
... so if I interpret this correctly, your suggestion about "improving" the game is to make it easier?
I just can't agree with you on this.
 

:coffee::fire:
You might find you can achieve some your personal preferences with custom settings.

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21 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

@Yavind
... so if I interpret this correctly, your suggestion about "improving" the game is to make it easier?
I just can't agree with you on this.
 

:coffee::fire:
You might find you can achieve some your personal preferences with custom settings.

I dont think so. Because the DEVs can take away other stuff to make it equally hard as it is right now. I think they just need to make them so wolfs are a little bit more scared of light sources and dont follow you on an entire map, just to remove the sillyness out of the game. But, I dont know for sure if it would make it easier. I think tough they should remove the "wolf-sillyness" :D Wolfs are extremly terrified of flares IRL. So make them very scared of flares in the game in-return for maybe less chance to find flares ?:) just a suggestion. A balance that I'll think will work in theory, but maybe not in practice? So it needs to be tested. so maybe it is a dangerous thing to do, to adjust such things. 

EDIT: Maybe fix the wolf-sillyness, and then add cougars?;) Then we will have a fine balance, but a harder game :D

Edited by Yavind

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@Yavind 
...and in real life, wolves will avoid humans at virtually every opportunity (and we do have a game mode where the wildlife is skittish... Pilgrim).

However, this is a game... and from the lore we already know the "reason why" the animals in the game behave the way they do (i.e. the "geomagnetic event" that gives rise to the auroras in the game).  This is the reason given for their uncharacteristically aggressive behavior and elevated territorial ferocity.  Considering this is a fictional setting, it seems rather presumptuous for anyone other than the Hinterland team to speak with any authority as to what the wildlife would or wouldn't do in their fictional setting.  What you are calling "silliness"... is in actuality a design choice.

 

However, let me defer to the source on this:
Raph from Mailbag Dispatch #40:

Quote

Wait wait -- please don't use "realism" as an argument for or against a game mechanic (or any tuning around it). You've played this game long enough, or been in this community long enough, to know not to do that. We don't design for realism, and we don't use it as a metric to determine how something should or should not work in the game.

Edited by ManicManiac

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12 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

@Yavind 
...and in real life, wolves will avoid humans at mostly every opportunity (and we do have a game mode where the wildlife is skittish... Pilgrim).

However, this is a game... and from the lore we already know the "reason why" the animals in the game behave the way they do (i.e. the "geomagnetic event" that gives rise to the auroras in the game).  This is the reason given for their uncharacteristically aggressive behavior and elevated territorial ferocity.  Considering this is a fictional setting, it seems rather presumptuous for anyone other than the Hinterland team to speak with any authority as to what the wildlife would or wouldn't do in their fictional setting.  What you are calling "silliness"... is in actuality a design choice.

 

However, let me defer to the source on this:
Raph from Mailbag Dispatch #40:

 

Its a fair answer from you @ManicManiac. I would like to see some adujstments to the wolfs tough, and I was not thinking of realism, but I would like to see some small adjustments, I think it will be better - but its is not a game breaker for me. But I think it can be better :D 

Edited by Yavind

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Fair enough... we all have our points of view, and our feelings on what we think that the game should be.
We also need to keep in mind that this is Hinterland's game, it's the experience they want to craft, and the story they want to tell.

Personally, I think it's better to accept and embrace the game for what it is... and to look forward to seeing what the Hinterland team has in store for us in the future.
 

 

Edited by ManicManiac
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2 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Fair enough... we all have our points of view, and our feelings on what we think that game should be.
We also need to keep in mind that this is Hinterland's game, it's the experience they want to craft, and the story they want to tell.

Personally, I think it's better to accept and embrace the game for what it is... and to look forward to seeing what the Hinterland team has in store for us in the future.
 

 

Yes. I'm for that too :) 

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The wolves arent scary. Theyre just super annoying because theyre crawling all over the place and even when you use a flare to scare them off they come right back in less than 30 in game minutes. Sometimes they come back before you can even walk away if their pathing messes up. 

We have a lot of tools to deal with them at least.

Edited by MarrowStone
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I guess his point was just that there is no dedicated "challenge" intended for pilgrim players. Although I fail to see what it could look like, maybe someone can make it work. Perhaps a a variation of hopeless rescue, but with a random placement of the object to fetch ? Something that would take time and consume resources. No idea.

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@StrayCat
Seems to me that the words "challenge" and "Pilgrim players" would be in direct opposition to each other (an oxymoron if you will)...  :D 
I mean if we had challenges set with "Pilgrim" difficulties... in what sense could they still be considered challenges?

 

:coffee::fire:

Edited by ManicManiac
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@ManicManiac Even though I agree with you, let's not forget that many players play pilgrim mode (or something similar in custom mode), to have some kind of cabin life simulator. Hinterland can't just ignore them. Beyond the obvious oxymoron, creating a "challenge" in custom mode can result in an interesting brainstorm session, finding difficulties that are not wildlife-related threats. I too wish that Hinterland consider adding more diverse environnement-based threats, not always more wolves thrown at our faces (lookin' at ya, timberwolf...). :wolf::wolf::wolf::wolf::wolf::wolf::wolf:   ;)

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I feel the challenges are well balanced. Wolves are not a problem at all. On some runs, I hardly bump into wolves. But if you play long enough, you will learn how to deal with wolves...because...in the end...it's a game with certain parameters, and you can learn the limitations of wolves and how to totally avoid them if you really wanted to. Of course, they might surprise you from time to time, but even that becomes predictable when you are in certain areas.  BUT....consider this speedrun by @Goodzilla. Watch how he navigates the wolves at about 2:15 into the clip. Really...the wolves are not  big deal once you learn the radius. 

In terms of items to find...why don't you start speed running the challenges....like for example, NOMAD or Hopeless Rescue.... You will have to find certain items and do it fast as you can. So even with the abundance of other items around, you will only value certain items. The point of the challenges is to do them fast as possible (it's not a survival run)...so you're not really supposed to pick everything up anyway. 

But come to think of it, the only Challenge I would like changed is Archivist...so that the Aurora works 4DON style...and out every day. This speedrun is too dependent on Aurora rng. 

 

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On 10/17/2019 at 10:55 AM, StrayCat said:

finding difficulties that are not wildlife-related threats.

This. I often make Interloper mode with tools and guns because I like the environmental threats more than having hostile wildlife constantly chucked at me. I make the wolves rare and dangerous but easier to avoid so that they're less annoying to encounter but when I am attacked it is because i was not careful enough. 

Pilgrim mode wildlife with extra bad weather and loot is really nice too. It reminds me of the movie Stalker where the location itself is like a character. 

 

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On 10/17/2019 at 7:06 PM, Lohaan said:

In terms of items to find...why don't you start speed running the challenges....like for example, NOMAD or Hopeless Rescue.... You will have to find certain items and do it fast as you can.

I guess you didn't get my point. I tend to think that most pilgrim players are contemplative, conservative, slow-paced with few risks taken. Speed-runnning a game could be the exact opposite of what they are looking for. And I never said that any challenge needs to be tweaked : I told that there is no challenge intended to pilgrim players.

 

On 10/21/2019 at 9:18 AM, MarrowStone said:

Pilgrim mode wildlife with extra bad weather and loot is really nice too. It reminds me of the movie Stalker where the location itself is like a character. 

I sometimes turn wildlife passive, with extreme weather conditions and scarcest resources. It's a good way to relax when you've already been fighting through your day at work. I guess cabin life simulator is indeed a good description.

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15 hours ago, StrayCat said:

I guess you didn't get my point. I tend to think that most pilgrim players are contemplative, conservative, slow-paced with few risks taken. Speed-runnning a game could be the exact opposite of what they are looking for. And I never said that any challenge needs to be tweaked : I told that there is no challenge intended to pilgrim players.

Just to clarify, my comment on this thread was aimed @Yavind...I didn't actually read your comments @StrayCat :)  

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So... I think I got what I wished for on EP 3 :D I love the morale system. And they are going to improve the wolfes some more. And it was less items to find in EP 3 :) well balanced!

Edited by Yavind

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On 10/15/2019 at 4:25 PM, ManicManiac said:

Personally, I think it's better to accept and embrace the game for what it is... and to look forward to seeing what the Hinterland team has in store for us in the future.

Perhaps, but there's nothing wrong with wanting improvements either.

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11 minutes ago, kristaok said:

Perhaps, but there's nothing wrong with wanting improvements either.

I spoke about this earlier in another thread.  I'm not against discussing ideas.  I do so every day on this forum :D 
But I do suggest that it's also a good idea for folks to realize that these things are opinions.  What would be "better" for one, does not mean better for everyone.

6 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

I wasn't suggesting that we shouldn't discuss our ideas about the game... what I am saying is that while we toss around our ideas, we not get so invested in them that to the point folks get angry or combative when people dare not to agree with them (they seem to take some personal offence when others don't agree with them, which I think is kind of infantile).

[Addendum]
*What I'm talking about here is not referencing any particular post in this thread... this is more of an overall explanation of why and when I take the stances that I do.*

In my opinion too many people get hung up on convincing themselves that their opinions are objective truths and that they are right in whatever statement they are making (which of course objectively is not the case - opinions are subjective in their very nature).  The general idea of my comment was meant to convey that if we accept the game for what its... then our discussion about what we think the game 'could' be would be much less infused with people's personal emotional baggage :D 

The moment people start tossing around their opinion like they know better than Hinterland what's going to be best for Hinterland's game... that's when I tend to perk up.  Again I think it's great to talk about ideas folks have for this game... but I don't think people should make declarative statements when they are expressing very subjective points of view.  I think people also need to remember that when they post on a forum they are inviting discussion.  They shouldn't be surprised when people comment on their ideas.  Nor should they expect everyone to rally around their idea and praise it as "...the way, and the light..." but some folks here act like that.  They get genuinely upset if folks dare to not "take their side." 

 

The short version is:  I'm all for the sharing of ideas, but I think people need to stop getting bent around the axel over their opinions.  I think people would be happier if they accepted the game as is... and then talk about things whey would like to see change (instead of clamoring for change just because they are personally frustrated or don't like a certain aspect).  That difference in attitude changes the perspective and tone.  Instead of coming from an over inflated sense of entitlement, it becomes actual constructive feedback/criticism.

 

Edited by ManicManiac

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