Ice Hole

Wish List: Resurrection Of Previous Features

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Played in the Time Capsule and found features that should be resurrected.  Add yours to this thread

 

Torch Lighting

screen_4cac7cc3-b228-4791-acc6-8b639d00cb06.thumb.png.67d9fa0f81de7a6c3c16e86298ab6923.png

This GUI pops up when lighting a torch.  Even if matches are the only ignition source this GUI will appear and prevent wasting matches.  Improvement would be a distinction between cardboard and wooden match and include Magnify Glass.  

Flint 

Also the Flint option would be a decent addition if it could be crafted.

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And can openers and knives weren't automatically used when opening cans. 

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"Take Brand" from fires.  It made a mountain of sense when they switched "take torch" to "take brand", and I genuinely do not understand the rationale behind why that was undone.  Taking a lit torch from a fire, which you can douse and re-light later with a 100% success rate, just doesn't make any sense.

Except this time around have them disappear when you put a 0% brand in a container, or toss them into a fire.  I used to have a pile of burnt out brands in the corner I could never get rid of...

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6 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

And can openers and knives weren't automatically used when opening cans. 

I miss that. The choice to use a tool or smash open was in the game for a while. It does kind of suck to have to drop tools that can be used to open a can onto the ground, to have the game use a specific tool (knife instead of can opener for instance), or drop all to be able to just smash the can open if you already have a ton of recycled cans, and don't care about any calorie loss from using "smash can open".

Never noticed the thing with torches, though, to be fair, I craft torches, but usually light them off an existing fire, or pull lower condition torches from a fire. I tend to carry flares for wolf protection or travel, since changing winds can easily blow out a torch almost as soon as I light it, or prevent me from lighting the dang things. Flares don't have that issue, though once lit, they can't be extinguished and reused. Trade-offs. Excellent heads-up/reminder about the torch @Ice Hole. Probably would not have thought about it if I didn't see this thread. Though, for traveling through caves or mines, new torches can be handy.

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I want a return of the sound effects. Dear GOD the music that plays when you find your first indoor's corpse? Made me actually jump. And that sound of doom when you leave a building? DO WANT. Holy crap HLG, what did you DO? This game was so much more terrifying in alpha release.  I get it, you wanted to be more appealing to the "wider audience"

As I have said before, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A WIDER AUDIENCE.

It is a myth.

https://www.sensoryvalue.com/en/theres-no-such-thing-as-the-perfect-sauce-just-perfect-sauces/

Study Howard Moskowitz. Learn from the master.

You cannot make The Long Dark Too Terrifying.

Oh, and "Brandish Your Torch?" bring that back. That is awesome.

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@TheEldritchGodreasons behind such changes are hardly ever that simplistic and one dimensional, so please avoid making such assumptions. Or better - ask our Creative Director in the Milton Mailbag why the change was made, and you may get some actual insight from the man himself.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

And can openers and knives weren't automatically used when opening cans. 

That. Knife "health" is too precious to be used on cans, really. And I can't craft wolf jacket or cut animals with opened cans, so...

Agree about the automatic match spent for every misclick while holding a torch during travel (which is always, to be honest). Matches are the real deal, please at least don't make it be used instantly, a 1-second circle would be fine.

Edited by BareSkin
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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, BareSkin said:

Agree about the automatic match spent for every misclick

I see what you mean, but I kind of also think it means that as players we do need to be paying attention to what we are doing in this game.

I like that we are punished for mistakes, as it teaches us to pay closer attention and make fewer mistakes.  It was the same way with raw meat... but much to my disappointment we now have a little hand holding safety net for the radial menu..."Are you sure you want to eat that?"

I generally think the better solution to these types of things, is for players to be paying attention and to take careful and deliberate action.  Not to push for the idea of wanting to rely on the game to save us from ourselves.

I know there are plenty of folks who may not agree, and that's okay... this is just my point of view on that particular topic. :) 
 

:coffee::fire:

Edited by ManicManiac

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

as players we do need to be paying attention to what we are doing in this game.

Totally sense about making mistakes and costing resources.  But the torch lighting logic is so very flawed it is troubling.  Currently there are two fundamental methods to ignite a torch.  First is strike a match and the other option is to touch the torch to a fire.  So instead of touching the torch to a fire I am able to reach in to the backpack and strike a match.  Or am I just walking around with matches ready to strike?

Currently for a torch chain I don't even through the torch.  Instead drop it from inventory, lands at feet and no rolling, then inventory again to select a torch, crouch and light.  I have had less wasted matches using that procedure but I dislike the rigmarole.

Making mistakes is great fun in a game.  Making unreasonable mistakes to me is less fun.

Edited by Ice Hole
the match is held in the mouth as a toothpick

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Posted (edited)

@Ice Hole

I absolutely see what you're saying... I do.  While I understand the dislike for the system, there are some easy ways to avoid wasting matches to a misclick that don't involve all the rigmarole you mentioned.  These are just little habits I found myself developing and honestly they're all pretty easy and don't require a lot of effort.

I mitigate even the possibility of wasting matches due to a misclick in the following ways:
- I don't equip a torch unless I intend to light that torch right at that moment - that is to say I don't walk around with an equipped unlit torch (so I never have the possibility of a misclick wasting a match)
- I use the radial menu to select my light source directly to avoid issues with the hotkey and having to cycle through light sources (this also help with avoiding the potential opportunity for a misclick)
- I carry a striker for emergencies as well cardboard matches just for the torch, having two different possible ignition sources will give you the prompt to first choose which ignition source to use - just like it did in the old days (this way in the event of a misclick it will prompt you and you can just cancel the action without wasting anything).
- I generally only have one torch in my inventory at a time (this means the one in the radial menu is the one I want because it's the only option)
- On the rare occasion I might want to torch chain... I again just select from the radial.  When it comes time light the next torch, if you right click the radial selection you can just place it on the ground... no throwing, no having to navigate the inventory to drop it.

 

:coffee::fire::coffee:
SE-BI-small.jpg.bde3fc27e369c0a21c5ed11f7350313f.jpg

Edited by ManicManiac

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Carry a firestiker only to have the pop up menu, seems to be the best choice as I too employ that tactic.  That firestriker is akin to Wilson, always with me but never used as intended.

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Posted (edited)

@Ice Hole

Fair enough...

I can agree that it feels unfortunate to have to carry a second ignition source to get a prompt, but at the same time I can see why they did it that way.  If you only have one way to light the touch, then there is no need for you pick which option you would use since you only have one option...

To me that goes back to the game not holding our hand and asking we if you really want to do the thing when we only have the one option for that action we initiated (if we did it by accident... that's our fault).  The game assumes we are being deliberate.  That's the reason why I don't mind that a misclick will waste a match... because we shouldn't be misclicking.
 

:coffee::fire::coffee:

Edited by ManicManiac

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Posted (edited)
On 10/2/2019 at 4:41 PM, ManicManiac said:

I see what you mean, but I kind of also think it means that as players we do need to be paying attention to what we are doing in this game.

We 100% agree. I want to be punished for game mistakes (didn't bring any fire, eat all my food too soon, etc) but no because I have to use areal-life orthopedic mouse because I have a real-life bad wrist.

19 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

because we shouldn't be misclicking.

On that, we won't agree. Or else we should trash all the game features that pertains to physical handicaps, because we shouldn't be handicaped? I get that's not what you meant, but you might be wrong supposing that miscliking is basically something you can avoid. On vertical mouse moving the mouse is quite the same movement as clicking. Means when you want to move it fast (happens so often in TLD), you end up clicking very often too, for nothing. I can't see how a "keep pressed for 0.5 second to light up this torch" would damage the gameplay for anyone.

Edited by BareSkin
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Posted (edited)

@BareSkin
That's not at all what I was suggesting... and you mentioned you knew that.

All I was saying is that a player should be careful in any game where every action matters, that's all.  I was also just trying to express that I think I understood why it was setup the way it was.  Considering we both have methods for avoiding those accidental clicks, I'm not sure why you read so far (and adding context that wasn't there) into what I posted.  I don't know anything about you, and in the conversation you never specified what difficulties you were personally dealing with so it was never part of the conversation I was having with you.  I thought the conversation was just about the mechanic in question, not how it conflicted with any personal difficulties you may have.

I can't control if you felt offended/slighted in any way, but it certainty wasn't the intention... and I certainly didn't say anything to the effect of what you suggested. 
 

:coffee::fire:

Edited by ManicManiac

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On 10/3/2019 at 9:24 PM, Ice Hole said:

Carry a firestiker only to have the pop up menu, seems to be the best choice as I too employ that tactic.  That firestriker is akin to Wilson, always with me but never used as intended.

It's a great sign that a mechanic is flawed when such weird workarounds surface. My firestrikers usually suffer the same bland existence as an anti-match-waster (and the few and far between instances when early a few more % are welcome if that fire really needs to succeed quick). 

In general I'm kinda inbetween the arguement (that seems to keep returning like the plague) about if misclicking should be punished or not. You see .... limited mechanical control over the game is a key element in any game that expects you to react to some kind of event in the appropriate way and time. We need to manually aim, we need to manually perform the right actions in the right order and at the right time. You can even break it down to the fact that we need to move the mouse in the right direction fast enough to not die from a snowstorm. I get that, and I do agree with the fact that having negative reinforcement (aka punishment) gives our actions meaning.

But then there is what I tend to call the "frustration balance" in a game, which basically is a loosely defined idea of how much frustration is appropriate for any mistake. Losing a match for the slip of a finger, especially considering that matches are a highly priced and rare resource (especially in Interloper), is inappropriately frustrating compared to the amount of failure that caused this frustration. By the same logic you'd have to fall down a rope for yanking the mouse too hard or hurt your hand when not hitting that door you were trying to open with the cursor. And, in my opinion, forcing frustration on a player that they do not feel to be appropriate of their mistake is one of the best ways to take away someone's interest in a game.

On 10/2/2019 at 12:46 AM, TheEldritchGod said:

I get it, you wanted to be more appealing to the "wider audience"

As I have said before, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A WIDER AUDIENCE.

I agree with that. Or as I understand it: if you have a niche product that works, try to expand into the niche, not out of it. Or: Try to be more appealing to your customers, not to be appealing to more customers.

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On 10/3/2019 at 4:24 PM, Ice Hole said:

Carry a firestiker only to have the pop up menu, seems to be the best choice as I too employ that tactic.  That firestriker is akin to Wilson, always with me but never used as intended.

I thought I was the only one doing this. I've got all intact firestrikers in my long term survivor, they're like my lucky charms just like my crackers. 

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Just to be clear before anyone gets too excited about any particular resurrection plans -- our goal with Time Capsule was not to create lobbies for getting old features back. If they were removed or changed, it was for good reason. We have no intention of stepping backwards in any area of the game.

Try to enjoy the Time Capsule as a look back on the way the game used to be, particularly if you're a player who came in after some of these earlier updates. 

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On 10/1/2019 at 3:46 PM, TheEldritchGod said:

I want a return of the sound effects. Dear GOD the music that plays when you find your first indoor's corpse? Made me actually jump. And that sound of doom when you leave a building? DO WANT. Holy crap HLG, what did you DO? This game was so much more terrifying in alpha release.  I get it, you wanted to be more appealing to the "wider audience"

As I have said before, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A WIDER AUDIENCE.

It is a myth.

https://www.sensoryvalue.com/en/theres-no-such-thing-as-the-perfect-sauce-just-perfect-sauces/

Study Howard Moskowitz. Learn from the master.

You cannot make The Long Dark Too Terrifying.

Oh, and "Brandish Your Torch?" bring that back. That is awesome.

Making The Long Dark terrifying has never been a goal, so your premise is flawed. 

Making it more appealing to a "wider audience" has also never been a goal. As @Admin said, please try to refrain from jumping to conclusions. 

(As to the matter of audio stingers -- there is no "music that plays when you find your first indoor corpse" or "sound of doom when you leave a building". These are music stringers that play, occasionally, based on a bunch of internal game logic. Sometimes they will play for these instances. Other times they will play for other events. The only place where you will find intentionally scripted music is in Story Mode.)

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2 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Just to be clear before anyone gets too excited about any particular resurrection plans -- our goal with Time Capsule was not to create lobbies for getting old features back. If they were removed or changed, it was for good reason. We have no intention of stepping backwards in any area of the game.

Try to enjoy the Time Capsule as a look back on the way the game used to be, particularly if you're a player who came in after some of these earlier updates. 

I think it's still valuable input to know which features some players would love to see reintroduced - and more importantly why. Doesn't mean that you have to act on that, and I guess nobody is seriously expecting that.

But just to pick one particular example: why does the brand, or brandishing, keep popping up even tho the feature is removed for quite some time now, and what are the grievances with how torches work? Doesn't mean that the solution is to bring back brands as they were - but it indicates that there might be something worth improving upon, and that part of the answer may lie in what players liked about brands.

To give a counter example: After people adopted Vigilant Flame's cooking system the old system popped up maybe as a nostalgic notion, but I don't see anyone wishing "old cooking" back. So that's probably pretty damn fine. 

 

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I've mentioned this a few times before but I think it fits here as well:

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 12:16 AM, ManicManiac said:

I think it's better to accept the game for what it is.  If the Hinterland team wants to make changes, then I'm fine with it... it's their game, it's the experience they want to craft, and it's the story they want to tell.  Personally I'm grateful that I've had this wonder game to play for the last 5 years.

 

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2 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

But just to pick one particular example: why does the brand, or brandishing, keep popping up even tho the feature is removed for quite some time now, and what are the grievances with how torches work? Doesn't mean that the solution is to bring back brands as they were - but it indicates that there might be something worth improving upon, and that part of the answer may lie in what players liked about brands.

To give a counter example: After people adopted Vigilant Flame's cooking system the old system popped up maybe as a nostalgic notion, but I don't see anyone wishing "old cooking" back. So that's probably pretty damn fine. 

 

Because there is a vocal minority, who are more active on the forums here, and on Steam. Look at how many members there are here, and how many people post regularly, either positively or negatively on these forums and Steam, versus the number of copies of the game that have sold. 3.3 million copies sold. A few hundred, or even being generous, a few thousand, people who post regularly, and often redundantly, on both forums. Just because one voice is louder, it does not mean it is the n voice you should always be listening to, or catering to.

 

And after the Vigilant Flame update, there were a good number of threads, on Steam at least, from a very vocal minority, who expressed dislike for the new cooking system. Same for the new UI and radial menu. Making huge changes, again, and reverting things just because a loud minority "screams for it", =/= making more people happy. It could. indeed, have the opposite effect on many players, who are not comfortable posting on forums, or who simply don't care to for whatever reason.  Having a discussion about what things we miss or have fond memories of, from older builds is one thing. But turning it into a "The players want it and you should acquiesce to our *demands* because a small number of us who like to make noise about it say so...", is entirely another thing.

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

I've mentioned this a few times before but I think it fits here as well:

On 10/3/2019 at 3:46 PM, ManicManiac said:

I think it's better to accept the game for what it is.  If the Hinterland team wants to make changes, then I'm fine with it... it's their game, it's the experience they want to craft, and it's the story they want to tell.  Personally I'm grateful that I've had this wonder game to play for the last 5 years.

 

This. Right here. ^^^

You can chose to play the game the devs have worked their butts off to create for the last 5 years, or you can choose to play something else. 

My 2¢.

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8 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

But then there is what I tend to call the "frustration balance" in a game, which basically is a loosely defined idea of how much frustration is appropriate for any mistake.

I agree. I have my loose definition of it too, I describe it more like "Player Precision" vs. "Player Intention". If the player wants to accomplish a task and knows exactly how to do said task, what level of precision required for them to accomplish it feels right? Grabbing a maple limb from beach combing? This task is quick and risky, so precision fits nicely with it. Mistakes can be freely punished. Lighting a torch? This task is more about intention. The only risk is deciding whether or not to use it.  Accidentally lighting it makes players blame the game instead of themselves since unlike falling through thin ice it doesn't really feel like their fault (even though it is). 

I also agree that workarounds do not make an issue ok either. For example, on high enough cooking levels it allows me to smash open cans without losing calories. I don't need a heavy can opener anymore! But if I have a knife or hatchet in my inventory (almost always) I have to drop both of them in order to benefit from my cooking skill since it defaults to my tools. Is dropping my tools every time before I eat canned food fun? Sorry to say, but It's not.

P.s. people did dislike the new cooking when it first came out, but it has been much improved after player feedback and dev tuning. Now it's a widely accepted feature in the game. 

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I'm in the camp that believes the majority of players are just fine with the changes once they adjust.  Each major change does rejigger the tradeoffs, and some folks have a hard time adjusting their gameplay. 

9 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

I also agree that workarounds do not make an issue ok either. For example, on high enough cooking levels it allows me to smash open cans without losing calories. I don't need a heavy can opener anymore! But if I have a knife or hatchet in my inventory (almost always) I have to drop both of them in order to benefit from my cooking skill since it defaults to my tools. Is dropping my tools every time before I eat canned food fun? Sorry to say, but It's not.

This is -- by far -- my #1 pet peeve with the game.  Even after reaching cooking 5, I have to drop my tools before opening a can.  Forever more.  Hundreds of days later, I'm still dropping my tools.  I can choose "hand" for many other actions, but not this one.  Better still the game could just assume I always want to smash the can once I get to the "no calories lost" bonus -- similar to how tinder works in the fire building interface after fire making 3.

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Posted (edited)

 

15 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

I think it's better to accept the game for what it is.  If the Hinterland team wants to make changes, then I'm fine with it... it's their game, it's the experience they want to craft, and it's the story they want to tell.  Personally I'm grateful that I've had this wonder game to play for the last 5 years.

 

13 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

You can chose to play the game the devs have worked their butts off to create for the last 5 years, or you can choose to play something else. 

By that logic you can boil it down to "Take it or leave it, but please don't bother talking about it". Maybe I'm critically mistaken, but I was under the impression input, opinions and constructive criticism were a thing the developers here valued. I could make a page long list about what's awesome about The Long Dark, but how would it help anyone improve the game? Discouraging people voicing their wishes, ideas and grievances is an effective way to stop people to care about the game. I mean I'm fine shutting up. What do I care, right? But maybe we can then just shut down the forum sections that invite such heresy. Just so nobody has to bear with people thinking about the game when their place is clearly to shut up, play the game, and periodically praise the makers.

12 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

I agree. I have my loose definition of it too, I describe it more like "Player Precision" vs. "Player Intention". If the player wants to accomplish a task and knows exactly how to do said task, what level of precision required for them to accomplish it feels right? Grabbing a maple limb from beach combing? This task is quick and risky, so precision fits nicely with it. Mistakes can be freely punished. Lighting a torch? This task is more about intention. The only risk is deciding whether or not to use it.  Accidentally lighting it makes players blame the game instead of themselves since unlike falling through thin ice it doesn't really feel like their fault (even though it is). 

Very elegantly put and pretty much on point of what I tried to convey.

12 hours ago, MarrowStone said:

P.s. people did dislike the new cooking when it first came out, but it has been much improved after player feedback and dev tuning. Now it's a widely accepted feature in the game. 

Thank you for making my point exactly. Through feedback and iteration the game got better. If everyone adhered to the logic that everything is as it should be 3.299 Million players that do not engage on the forums would still get sick from eating raw predator meat by accident. Which, I dare say, probably wasn't the kind of story the developers wanted to tell.

Edited by jeffpeng
Removed some probably unwarranted sarcasm.
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