Alphyrion

Randomized item locations for infinite replayability

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Hi All,

I used to play this game some time back, and it has left a lasting memory - what a special game! I was never an ultra-veteran but managed to survive about 40 days-ish on interloper before a silly mistake killed me off. The thing that stopped me from playing after a while was that I ended up knowing the more likely spawn location for key items, and even knowing patterns of when item types would be likely to spawn in a specific play through.

Does anyone know if the devs have ever considered randomizing spawn locations completely (but in a smart way, of course, not totally random. would need limits on total number of objects per map or per play-through)? This would definitely bring me back to the game. I want the randomness - the sheer fear of not knowing whether I'm going to make it to my next safe spot or not. I feel this could really boost the game's replayability, helping players move beyond a couple of hundred hours of gameplay into the thousands, and earning it the cult status it deserves.
 

I am keen to know if 1. this has been considered and why it hasn't been implemented, or 2. how I can get the dev's attention on this idea. Are they reading this forum?

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Ever since the most recent updates I swear spawn locations have changed.

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I believe the reason for the very few static spawns is to ensure you will get at least one of that item in any play-through.

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Yes that but that can be arranged while not having the loot spawn in predictable patterns as it currently does, no?

These predictable loot patterns are the only reason I stopped playing after a couple of hundred hours. The game is wonderful otherwise.

Imagine knowing the maps and safe spots as we do, but not knowing what loot to expect when checking out a hut...

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There aren't that many static spawns are there?  The only ones I recall off-hand are: TWM flaregun, PV Bow in picnic cave, Ravine flaregun.  How many others are there?

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6 hours ago, Alphyrion said:

Yes that but that can be arranged while not having the loot spawn in predictable patterns as it currently does, no?

These predictable loot patterns are the only reason I stopped playing after a couple of hundred hours. The game is wonderful otherwise.

Imagine knowing the maps and safe spots as we do, but not knowing what loot to expect when checking out a hut...

I see what you are talking about, I think. I don't play Loper often, my playstyle is just too unstructured to do well at it. But I do know that a number of Loper vets on the Steam forums, as well as guides there, talk about a "matrix" for loot spawns. If the hacksaw spawns at "A", the hammer will spawn at "B" and the mag lens will be at "D", ect. And they all seem to know all of the "Matrix" spawns, and go to the set locations to see what is there, and determine which "Matrix" they have gotten.  It's a bit predictable for them, I guess. Too structured for me.

But have you tried playing using the Custom Settings at all? Raising or lowering, to change the game up a bit? I think the "must have tools Matrix" stays the same unless you change the BRA, but changing just one or two other settings could make the game feel a bit less predictable. Deadmans Challenge Mode (player made mode) that many of them like might shake things up for you a bit too. I lasted all of one day trying DMC settings, lol.

Though, yeah, I agree, the less predictable loot spawns in Stalker, while still abundant loot, make each run feel completely different, and encourage me to go on the hunt for things more, exploring and looting the maps more thoroughly.

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On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 7:43 AM, Alphyrion said:

Hi All,

I used to play this game some time back, and it has left a lasting memory - what a special game! I was never an ultra-veteran but managed to survive about 40 days-ish on interloper before a silly mistake killed me off. The thing that stopped me from playing after a while was that I ended up knowing the more likely spawn location for key items, and even knowing patterns of when item types would be likely to spawn in a specific play through.

Does anyone know if the devs have ever considered randomizing spawn locations completely (but in a smart way, of course, not totally random. would need limits on total number of objects per map or per play-through)? This would definitely bring me back to the game. I want the randomness - the sheer fear of not knowing whether I'm going to make it to my next safe spot or not. I feel this could really boost the game's replayability, helping players move beyond a couple of hundred hours of gameplay into the thousands, and earning it the cult status it deserves.
 

I am keen to know if 1. this has been considered and why it hasn't been implemented, or 2. how I can get the dev's attention on this idea. Are they reading this forum?

I would love it if nothing spawned in the same spot game after game, whether it is loot or harvestable items. Guarantee one of each item that should spawn per playing level is there, but never guarantee what map, what building, what field, which woods, etc. Some things, such as birch bark can't really be shifted much, but just about everything else can be. As much as people talk about how difficult loper can be, how hard is it to run from one guaranteed spawn point to another? It's like a scavenger hunt that you snagged a cheat sheet to for the most part. Changing that up would make a huge difference to all playstyles imo.

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Posted (edited)

Loriaw - Glad you see my viewpoint on this. I just want this game to be as close to what the experience is supposed to be: i.e. a survival experience where you don't know your environment. I appreciate the maps can't be changed each playthrough (though that would be amazing! ;)) but surely item locations can. As it currently is, after a couple hundred hours of gameplay, I imagine that most people can figure out where stuff is likely to be - and especially the critical items like the hammer, saw etc.. they make such a difference in the game that you make darn sure you remember where they tend to spawn.

 

I appreciate the Dev replies, FrozenCorpse, thanks!! And also the suggestions on trying the custom game modes, PancakeLady. Will take a look.

 

But my no. 1 wish is for the clean pure sandbox experience, but with randomized items locations.

Edited by Alphyrion
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4 hours ago, Alphyrion said:

Loriaw - Glad you see my viewpoint on this. I just want this game to be as close to what the experience is supposed to be: i.e. a survival experience where you don't know your environment. I appreciate the maps can't be changed each playthrough (though that would be amazing! ;)) but surely item locations can. As it currently is, after a couple hundred hours of gameplay, I imagine that most people can figure out where stuff is likely to be - and especially the critical items like the hammer, saw etc.. they make such a difference in the game that you make darn sure you remember where they tend to spawn.

 

I appreciate the Dev replies, FrozenCorpse, thanks!! And also the suggestions on trying the custom game modes, PancakeLady. Will take a look.

 

But my no. 1 wish is for the clean pure sandbox experience, but with randomized items locations.

On survival, I've found that very few things are in a guaranteed spawn point... they tend to move around among a few different spawn points and it can be deadly and devastating if you're counting on a particular item being in a particular place and you trek all the way across different maps thinking that's where that item will be and it's not there.  People that use written loot tables on interloper can figure out what loot table they are on and, therefore, once they find one of the special items listed, know where the others are; but people who don't can make mistakes... and that can cost them their lives.  On lower difficulties where there is more loot generally, I doubt many people have figured it out precisely or have written up similar loot tables.  They could, I think, stick with the same system and just had a few more loot tables to make it seem even more random.  If they add more zones, I could see that sort of thing happening.

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12 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

On survival, I've found that very few things are in a guaranteed spawn point... they tend to move around among a few different spawn points and it can be deadly and devastating if you're counting on a particular item being in a particular place and you trek all the way across different maps thinking that's where that item will be and it's not there.  People that use written loot tables on interloper can figure out what loot table they are on and, therefore, once they find one of the special items listed, know where the others are; but people who don't can make mistakes... and that can cost them their lives.  On lower difficulties where there is more loot generally, I doubt many people have figured it out precisely or have written up similar loot tables.  They could, I think, stick with the same system and just had a few more loot tables to make it seem even more random.  If they add more zones, I could see that sort of thing happening.

Like you say, items only move between "a few different spawn points." My experience is that this means that on 'loper, you are basically following known paths between these likely spawn locations. 

I have never relied on loot matrices. Not even sure what they are. But I do know where to go next in loper to ensure I find matches and to make sure I maximize my chances of finding decent stuff. This semi-predictability reduces the unknown and "fear" element that you feel so much more in your first 10-50 hours of gaming. I just wish you had ZERO idea of what you might find, besides some expectation that will find more loot in bigger bases like farmstead at PV, the dam etc.. it would force us into new patterns of behaviour, and might force us to explore more of the maps.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Alphyrion said:

Like you say, items only move between "a few different spawn points." My experience is that this means that on 'loper, you are basically following known paths between these likely spawn locations. 

I have never relied on loot matrices. Not even sure what they are. But I do know where to go next in loper to ensure I find matches and to make sure I maximize my chances of finding decent stuff. This semi-predictability reduces the unknown and "fear" element that you feel so much more in your first 10-50 hours of gaming. I just wish you had ZERO idea of what you might find, besides some expectation that will find more loot in bigger bases like farmstead at PV, the dam etc.. it would force us into new patterns of behaviour, and might force us to explore more of the maps.

The thing is, regardless of your knowing a likely location for some key items, there is absolutely nothing that says you have to allow yourself to just run to those predictable locations.  You can still play with a self-disciplinary rule in place that "forces" you to stop and loot every location you pass, even though you know/believe there will likely be nothing there for you.  The container loot is all random.  Loper is just set such that the odds of getting empty containers is higher, so it is still possible to find matches in any container you encounter.  You can also "force" yourself to explore more of the map as well by given yourself  alternate additional challenges.  Try mapping every single part of every map in Loper or delivering a newspaper to every house on the map.

You absolutely have no business trying to "force" the rest of "us" to do anything.  It's a single-player game.  I'm happy if the devs stay with their current system... totally random containers and some semi-random placed items.

Edited by UpUpAway95

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Posted (edited)

I would never force anything on other players. I appreciate it might not be everyone's cup of tea, and some people get attached to having a better sense of where stuff is. What I'm suggesting is a "randomized item locations" option in start menus for those who quit the game because of predictability, nothing more.

Edited by Alphyrion
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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Alphyrion said:

I would never force anything on other players. what I'm suggesting is a "randomized item locations" option in start menus, nothing more.

There already is a custom setting that would increase the random spawns of items.  Start with the Interloper template and just decrease the chance that containers are empty.  Leave your base resource availability the same.  This will have an effect of increasing your finds in containers a bit. (so a little more loot available to you than in regular interloper, but all of it is random).  What it won't effect is the items that never appear in containers (e.g. the bedroll).  However, if you discipline yourself to investigate every place between your random spawn point you pass, there is a good chance you'll be dead before you ever reach such placed items anyways.

... and "force" was the exact term you used in your previous response to me.

Your suggesting the devs change their entire basis for the placed items in this game since containers are already totally random.  That doesn't sound like a small change to me.  If it's an optional toggle in the start menu, then it means the game would have to run using two different systems for loot placement.  That sounds like a recipe for a lot of bugs to me.  I don't think it's worth it.  I've played well over 1,000 hours in this game and I still don't know off the top of my head where my bedroll will be in any given interloper run.

Edited by UpUpAway95

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It's clear I won't convince you UpUpAway, but why are you trying to shoot this idea down so badly? What is the fuss about?

I just don't like the fact that when I arrive in a given house, I know exactly where to look for likely loot - under which wardrobe, on which bedside table, etc... and not only that - the most important items tend to spawn only in a limited number of locations that can be memorized (unless the game has introduced new spawn locations since I stopped playing about a year ago or so). It won't guarantee you'll find your bedroll at the first attempt, but if you check every likely location, you will - but by then your game will have turned into a series of trecks between know loot locations, at least on loper. I'd rather have a more random game - which better simulates the fully lost survivor scenario.

I'm only posting this thread because I love this game. In fact I created an account on this forum for this only purpose, in the hope that devs will consider it which would bring me back to playing. I just thought I'd share the idea with the community. If it's deemed a good idea, it can be considered. if it isn't deemed attractive to players, then it will be dropped. If it isn't practical from a coding point of view, it can be dropped regardless.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Alphyrion said:

It's clear I won't convince you UpUpAway, but why are you trying to shoot this idea down so badly? What is the fuss about?

I just don't like the fact that when I arrive in a given house, I know exactly where to look for likely loot - under which wardrobe, on which bedside table, etc... and not only that - the most important items tend to spawn only in a limited number of locations that can be memorized (unless the game has introduced new spawn locations since I stopped playing about a year ago or so). It won't guarantee you'll find your bedroll at the first attempt, but if you check every likely location, you will - but by then your game will have turned into a series of trecks between know loot locations, at least on loper. I'd rather have a more random game - which better simulates the fully lost survivor scenario.

I'm only posting this thread because I love this game. In fact I created an account on this forum for this only purpose, in the hope that devs will consider it which would bring me back to playing. I just thought I'd share the idea with the community. If it's deemed a good idea, it can be considered. if it isn't deemed attractive to players, then it will be dropped. If it isn't practical from a coding point of view, it can be dropped regardless.

I'm saying that you can't guarantee the loot will be where you look despite your thinking that you can.  More than once, I've heard a Youtuber assert that this or that particular items is "guaranteed" to spawn in a particular spot... and then I've gone there and not found that item there.  For example, a possible place to find a revolver  (which is a placed item never found in a container) is under Gray Mother's bed... but I've tested this with several starts in Mountain Town on Pilgrim and that revolver is there only about 50% of the time.  Pilgrim is the most liberal mode for all loot spawns, but it's still not a guaranteed spawn.  In fact, there is even no guarantee a revolver will spawn in Mountain Town Region on Pilgrim.  I've had several of those starts that haven't had a single revolver to be found anywhere in the region.  It is as Raph responded, not 100% guaranteed unless it's 100% bugged.

There are limited placed sites and a limited number of housing plans in the game, so it stands to reason that you're going to be looking under the same sort of dresser or bed repeatedly.  Some regions only have one or two main sites, so even randomizing all the loot will not prevent those sites from being the major areas you beeline to find loot.  Then, there are a number of random containers you search through (cabinets, drawers, metal boxes and plastic containers).  The plastic and metal containers themselves are random spawns and may or may not be in any particular house on any given run.   I certainly don't want to see them add a bunch of containers lying around in the snow or a ton more corpses to make more sites for that random loot to spawn.

Interloper is set with the maximum number of empty containers, so the ratio of placed items to container items is highest in that setting.  You can already change that ratio by decreasing the number of empty containers and leaving the baseline resource availability the same.  It will add some loot overall to your game, but probably not enough to make a huge difference.   You can also alter the ratio of dropped items (e.g. items found by corpses) in a similar way. There are a few key items that will never spawn in a container (like a bedroll), but shoes and sweaters, tools, etc. will... So, by doing this, you should see fewer of those lying around in your "pet' spots since the tuning to the baseline resource availability should place them in containers instead.

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea.  I'm simply not voting for it and giving my reasons for not up voting it.  I already said they could possibly add more different loot tables to the game (something that I think will inevitably occur anyways as they add areas and new key items like the pistol).  You've only vaguely suggested that randomizing everything is a simple matter while still balancing things to ensure every run is at least viable; but to me, it doesn't sound like an easy thing for Hinterland to change at this point.  Therefore, I personally don't think it's worth it.

I do apologize if I became a little triggered by your use of the term "force us."

Edited by UpUpAway95

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Addendum - I also like that certain classes of items don't ever spawn in certain classes of containers.  I don't really want to start find shoes in a freezer or a heavy hammer in a fridge.

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1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I'm saying that you can't guarantee the loot will be where you look despite your thinking that you can.  More than once, I've heard a Youtuber assert that this or that particular items is "guaranteed" to spawn in a particular spot... and then I've gone there and not found that item there.  For example, a possible place to find a revolver  (which is a placed item never found in a container) is under Gray Mother's bed... but I've tested this with several starts in Mountain Town on Pilgrim and that revolver is there only about 50% of the time.  Pilgrim is the most liberal mode for all loot spawns, but it's still not a guaranteed spawn.  In fact, there is even no guarantee a revolver will spawn in Mountain Town Region on Pilgrim.  I've had several of those starts that haven't had a single revolver to be found anywhere in the region.  It is as Raph responded, not 100% guaranteed unless it's 100% bugged.

There are limited placed sites and a limited number of housing plans in the game, so it stands to reason that you're going to be looking under the same sort of dresser or bed repeatedly.  Some regions only have one or two main sites, so even randomizing all the loot will not prevent those sites from being the major areas you beeline to find loot.  Then, there are a number of random containers you search through (cabinets, drawers, metal boxes and plastic containers).  The plastic and metal containers themselves are random spawns and may or may not be in any particular house on any given run.   I certainly don't want to see them add a bunch of containers lying around in the snow or a ton more corpses to make more sites for that random loot to spawn.

Interloper is set with the maximum number of empty containers, so the ratio of placed items to container items is highest in that setting.  You can already change that ratio by decreasing the number of empty containers and leaving the baseline resource availability the same.  It will add some loot overall to your game, but probably not enough to make a huge difference.   You can also alter the ratio of dropped items (e.g. items found by corpses) in a similar way. There are a few key items that will never spawn in a container (like a bedroll), but shoes and sweaters, tools, etc. will... So, by doing this, you should see fewer of those lying around in your "pet' spots since the tuning to the baseline resource availability should place them in containers instead.

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea.  I'm simply not voting for it and giving my reasons for not up voting it.  I already said they could possibly add more different loot tables to the game (something that I think will inevitably occur anyways as they add areas and new key items like the pistol).  You've only vaguely suggested that randomizing everything is a simple matter while still balancing things to ensure every run is at least viable; but to me, it doesn't sound like an easy thing for Hinterland to change at this point.  Therefore, I personally don't think it's worth it.

I do apologize if I became a little triggered by your use of the term "force us."

I can honestly say that after 2200+ hours of playing this game, I know what is under which dresser, and the most likely spawn points for high end items.  For that matter, I know where all the random containers are (the ones just lying beside a rock or tucked up by a tree trunk). It just is.

There is absolutely nothing that would ever really bring back that feeling of playing for the first time, but randomizing the loot would go a long way towards mitigating a player's knowledge of the maps. Stop leaving things such as books and the distress pistol in known places such as the Ravine or the plane 99% of the time ~ as an example. Those who play Stalker and loper because you love things made harder and because you're so good at the game should revel in such a world. People who've grown too familiar with the regions, have named most of the trees, and have hiking paths in mind for a new recreational area once things 'get back to normal' would love at least a glimpse of the great unknown we first stepped into. 

The bottom line is that the maps and regions themselves are mostly 'fixed'. Altering them would be difficult/impossible. Loot is already a random thing even with matrix tables to guide it. Why not completely randomize the stuff outside of guaranteeing the required percentage of certain items? It isn't a matter of just not picking up something ~ it's a matter of once again being able to say "I wonder what is in here" and honestly having no idea before you click on that container! 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, loriaw said:

I can honestly say that after 2200+ hours of playing this game, I know what is under which dresser, and the most likely spawn points for high end items.  For that matter, I know where all the random containers are (the ones just lying beside a rock or tucked up by a tree trunk). It just is.

There is absolutely nothing that would ever really bring back that feeling of playing for the first time, but randomizing the loot would go a long way towards mitigating a player's knowledge of the maps. Stop leaving things such as books and the distress pistol in known places such as the Ravine or the plane 99% of the time ~ as an example. Those who play Stalker and loper because you love things made harder and because you're so good at the game should revel in such a world. People who've grown too familiar with the regions, have named most of the trees, and have hiking paths in mind for a new recreational area once things 'get back to normal' would love at least a glimpse of the great unknown we first stepped into. 

The bottom line is that the maps and regions themselves are mostly 'fixed'. Altering them would be difficult/impossible. Loot is already a random thing even with matrix tables to guide it. Why not completely randomize the stuff outside of guaranteeing the required percentage of certain items? It isn't a matter of just not picking up something ~ it's a matter of once again being able to say "I wonder what is in here" and honestly having no idea before you click on that container! 

I'm sorry, but i don't believe you because I notice things like corpses that were in a place on one playthrough not being there on the next.  Multiple deliberate tests of the revolver has definitively shown that it cannot always be found in particular locations.  Frequently found, I can buy.  Most likely found, I can buy; but guaranteed so that "you know" where to look for it.  No, I don't buy that unless you're talking about the 4 loot table spreadsheets a player devised for interloper that account for key items.  And I've already said twice, Hinterland could/should add more variations of those so that they are less easily tracked.  Ninety-nine percent of the time is not 100% of the time.  Adding loot tables rather than going 100% random spawn makes more sense to me in that a total 100% randomized spawn of everything in the game would mean that anything could spawn anywhere and in any type of container.  As I said, I don't want to find shoes in a fridge nor do I want a bunch of random containers lying out in the snow appearing all over the map like so much litter.  Those are my personal reasons for not upvoting this suggestion.  If you like it, then upvote.  I'm not stopping anyone from doing that.  There is no need to argue with me over my personal preference on this.

Edited by UpUpAway95

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2 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Addendum - I also like that certain classes of items don't ever spawn in certain classes of containers.  I don't really want to start find shoes in a freezer or a heavy hammer in a fridge.

I found climbing socks in a fridge. 

Yes, found them there, I did not place them there. Funniest loot find ever, for me. :) 20190604161853_1.thumb.jpg.24df764191a4580bdb154f20ca4c7564.jpg

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 As I said in my first posts it would need to be done in a smart way - overall balance would still need to be maintained through certain rules around scarcity. Also, we're not talking about letting stuff appears randomly on the snow, or about shoes in the fridges (though I guess socks are possible!!)

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10 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

I found climbing socks in a fridge. 

Yes, found them there, I did not place them there. Funniest loot find ever, for me. :) 20190604161853_1.thumb.jpg.24df764191a4580bdb154f20ca4c7564.jpg

Lol... well, I guess I hope it was a bit of bug.  I've only ever found meat or fish in the fridges in the game.  I applaud how this game has, for the most part, been able to keep loot spawns somewhat logical.  I honestly don't see it as a negative that I can logically reason that the most likely place for me to find matches is at a forge or a processing plant (although I did have an interloper run recently where I went to the processing plant looking for my "guaranteed" matches and wound up completely tearing that place upside down looking for them.  They simply were not there.  Ultimately, I froze to death, starving, inside the processing plant.  IMO, not finding something that you're counting on being there can easily be a run ender as easily as not being able to even remotely guess where loot might spawn.

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My two cents worth, think that loot tables are fine as they are, but what would be interesting is a Custom Random game. A Custom game, where every variable is randomly chosen, so you have no idea what to expect, at all.  Maybe it's low wolf spawn, high wolf fear, but Interloper wolf damage.  Maybe it's All Bears All The Time.  Maybe it's Pilgrim wildlife, but Interloper everything else.

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46 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Lol... well, I guess I hope it was a bit of bug.  I've only ever found meat or fish in the fridges in the game.  I applaud how this game has, for the most part, been able to keep loot spawns somewhat logical.  I honestly don't see it as a negative that I can logically reason that the most likely place for me to find matches is at a forge or a processing plant (although I did have an interloper run recently where I went to the processing plant looking for my "guaranteed" matches and wound up completely tearing that place upside down looking for them.  They simply were not there.  Ultimately, I froze to death, starving, inside the processing plant.  IMO, not finding something that you're counting on being there can easily be a run ender as easily as not being able to even remotely guess where loot might spawn.

No bug, it is not a closed container, but an "in the wilds" spawn location. Notice the open fridge door? I just never found socks in there before, made me laugh. Still does. Reminds me of all thing weird things I, my husband, and my kids have put in the fridge at home, when we were tired or being very absent-minded. Keys, books, empty coffee mugs, dish towels, a cat toy or 2... lol! Sometimes you just set something down in an odd place.  ;)

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29 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

No bug, it is not a closed container, but an "in the wilds" spawn location. Notice the open fridge door? I just never found socks in there before, made me laugh. Still does. Reminds me of all thing weird things I, my husband, and my kids have put in the fridge at home, when we were tired or being very absent-minded. Keys, books, empty coffee mugs, dish towels, a cat toy or 2... lol! Sometimes you just set something down in an odd place.  ;)

I didn't think about the door being open in the photo.  I guess the owner thought the shelf would make a good drying out rack.  I'm guilty of not looking much inside the fridges and ovens that have doors that are ajar.  I think I did spot a soda in one way back when, but after looking numerous times and not spotting anything, I just pretty gave up on doing it.

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36 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

My two cents worth, think that loot tables are fine as they are, but what would be interesting is a Custom Random game. A Custom game, where every variable is randomly chosen, so you have no idea what to expect, at all.  Maybe it's low wolf spawn, high wolf fear, but Interloper wolf damage.  Maybe it's All Bears All The Time.  Maybe it's Pilgrim wildlife, but Interloper everything else.

This sounds like an interesting idea.

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