Doc Feral

Getting dirty

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Posted (edited)

In the description of the Harvesting skill it states that when you're at low levels you work in a clumsy and dirty way (or something like that, reverse translation), so it would make sense to earn a temporary scent penalty after harvesting, from having blood and bits sticking to your clothes, disappearing after a while or maybe needing some form of cleaning (water, snow, or maybe ash from an extinguished fire). Yes, I admit it's just another "make things harder just for the hell of it" idea.

Edited by Doc Feral
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There is model of soap in game i would like to get a personal hygiene mechanic, however it would be challenge to implement it (probably without bathing).

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@Doc Feral
I'm perfectly fine with there being no hygiene mechanic in the game.  :D 
I get what you're saying though, and it would make natural sense - I just don't think I would enjoy it as a gameplay mechanic.

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Since I generally walk away from harvesting a carcass with several kilos of either raw or cooked meat and/or several pieces of uncured cut and possibly a hide, I'm definitely already more stinky after harvesting than I was before.  Is there really a need to double up on this?

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48 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Since I generally walk away from harvesting a carcass with several kilos of either raw or cooked meat and/or several pieces of uncured cut and possibly a hide, I'm definitely already more stinky after harvesting than I was before.  Is there really a need to double up on this?

I think the OPs idea is that the scent would stick to your clothing as the bits of flesh and blood stains would, meaning the clothing items themselves would smell and thus so would you even when not carrying stinky items.

 

I totally agree it's a blunt, "make things a little more annoying" kind of idea but I love it. It's frustratingly realistic which is exactly the experience I hope to have a little more of in TLD. I've stated before that I think the smell-o-meter function is woefully underutilized in the game.

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I agree with @Doc Feral, @Moll, and @LostRealist. We have soap shown in the game. This idea has been brought up on the Steam forums a few times, and I supported having a "cleanliness"  factor then, I still support it now. Especially as part of a larger Mental Health & Wellbeing system. Being able to clean your clothing and your body should raise your spirits, a simple tool to fight the isolation, and help reduce your detection range with predators and prey. Think of wearing unwashed socks for weeks on end. Not only would your feet stink, your clothing would be caked with "residues" that *should* make them decay faster. 

Something like the Well Fed mechanic, perhaps. If you are in a location that has soap in a soap dish, or if soap was made into an interactable item you could pick up and carry, you can boil a cooking pot of water, and wash. Not totally "realistic" to wash your entire loadout in 2L of water, and yourself, but we have lots of things in the game that are not IRL "realistic". 1 cooking pot full of potable water allows you to choose cleaning your character, or cleaning your clothes. Take the time to do both, get a 24 hour "Clean & Fresh" buff that slows decay on your clothing, and reduces your detection range, maybe?

Yes, it would be another "micro-management" thing. You could choose to do it or not, no change from the current game if you choose not to, just a very temporary buff if you do decide to (add it to the Custom settings toolbox to toggle the mechanic on or off, just like Cabin Fever and Sprains can be). You can do it *only* after the snow is melted and the water is boiled, or only done if you "warm" already potable water. Clothing would need to be dried after washing, your character would need to be dried after washing (think wet hair, beard, skin., wet clothes... prone to hypothermia and/or frostbite if you don't get dry and go out into a blizzard...). Making it optional would hopefully save Hinterland from any outcry over *forcing* it on players who do not want to do it. Giving a buff to those who do it would make it feel *worthwhile* to them, perhaps. The same way you can play the game just fine without ever getting the Well Fed buff. It gives players another choice, with a risk/reward attached to it. It takes time, you have additional weight to carry for the soap, and you need a fire. You get to have your clothing last a little longer and have wolves detect you less easily for a day or two.

Upvoted the idea. Hoping for a good discussion on how this might work, pro and cons. And honestly, I have been seeing people ask for a mode even tougher than vanilla Loper for some time now, and others who have said the game feels like it is being made "too easy" with the addition of the Revolver and Birch Bark Tea.  Wouldn't mind seeing the game become a bit tougher again. It's not supposed to be "easy" to survive the Quiet Apocalypse.

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Since everyone here is disagreeing basically with me... I'll add this point - the proposal is that the penalty would diminish as your harvesting skill increases (which is usually the first skill to reach level 5 in most of my games).  IF you don't wash your clothes before levelling up harvesting further, how would the penalty be reasonably affect.  If it just goes away, then what's the need to laundering the clothing.  If it doesn't go away, then chances are you're not really seeing the benefit of leveling up until AFTER the next time you're able to do laundry. 

What about lingering blood on clothing from each attack?  Shouldn't there be something of an odor to that as well and shouldn't it get worse the more attacks you suffer through between washings?

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Would we end up having to wash our clothing and our person with cooking pots of hot water?
I can't think of very many sources of running water... oh, perhaps we could use a washing machine when the aurora is out. :D 

Like I mentioned before I get what folks are saying and it makes sense, it really does, but it would have to implemented well.  I trust the team, so if they do opt to implement something like this I'd be on board... or course.

I'm still good with there being no such mechanic in the game and I wouldn't be one to try and push for it, but I am open to it... :) 

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Well, I would be in favor of this, but I think it should be just a water-only bathing thing.  Mainly because if soap is required, the pre-placed soap is going to run out.  And we don't currently have the ingredients in the game to MAKE soap, and even if they did, something like lye isn't something you can just harvest in the forest.  So bathing with soap is a fundamentally finite thing.

As for washing clothes...I agree it's a little unrealistic to wear the same pair of underwear for 1000 days in a row, but the nuances of washing clothes...meeehhh that's a little far in the weeds.  Besides being a major chore to wash clothes by hand, you then would have to let them dry.  And how would you determine which clothes get washed? Probably something alongside the Repair and Harvest options...  That's just too much IMO.  Having to wash up to 16 separate clothing items...that's a lot of tedium, unless the stink builds up so slowly that you can get away with it on about the same timeframe as clothing repairs due to natural decay.

Personal hygiene though, that has merits.  Use 2L of water to bathe, and like @ThePancakeLady suggested, get a 24 hour "clean and fresh" buff where wildlife detection radius goes down by say 10%, letting you get just a smidge closer than normal.  Also, maybe you get one free animal bite with zero infection risk.  You get in a wolf struggle, that first bite carries no infection risk, but you immediately lose your Clean and Fresh buff due to...well..bleeding all over yourself.

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1 hour ago, ajb1978 said:

... something like lye isn't something you can just harvest in the forest...

 

They would need to add a new mechanic/crafting recipe or 2, but it is doable. Animal fat (tallow- rendered) + lye made from hardwood ashes (we'd need to be able to burn birch and maple) soaked in cloth in potable water to make lye-water. Then cook the rendered fat and lye-water in a cooking pot to make the soap. Nevermind that you could never safely use the pot to cook food or make water in again. I mean, it is doable, but would really become a PITA to add to the game, and deal with in-game. So, they would need to add more soap as loot, and we would need to manage usage of it, like so many other things in the game. We find chocolate bars, granola bars and such in drawers, lockers and safes, why not soap? A lonely logger's obsessive hoarding habit? 

Now, finding Soft Scrub to remove the soap scum would be a bit more of a pain... ;)

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 There could be an option to "wash your smalls" on a regular basis. I've seen a couple of tin bathtubs laying around.

Just as a side note. I find it odd that there aren't any showers in the mines, dam, or whale processing factory, they're all grimy, smelly jobs and you'd think the employer would want healthy workers.

On 6/25/2019 at 12:43 AM, ThePancakeLady said:

I agree with @Doc Feral, @Moll, and @LostRealist. We have soap shown in the game. This idea has been brought up on the Steam forums a few times, and I supported having a "cleanliness"  factor then, I still support it now. Especially as part of a larger Mental Health & Wellbeing system. Being able to clean your clothing and your body should raise your spirits, a simple tool to fight the isolation, and help reduce your detection range with predators and prey. Think of wearing unwashed socks for weeks on end. Not only would your feet stink, your clothing would be caked with "residues" that *should* make them decay faster. 

Something like the Well Fed mechanic, perhaps. If you are in a location that has soap in a soap dish, or if soap was made into an interactable item you could pick up and carry, you can boil a cooking pot of water, and wash. Not totally "realistic" to wash your entire loadout in 2L of water, and yourself, but we have lots of things in the game that are not IRL "realistic". 1 cooking pot full of potable water allows you to choose cleaning your character, or cleaning your clothes. Take the time to do both, get a 24 hour "Clean & Fresh" buff that slows decay on your clothing, and reduces your detection range, maybe?

Yes, it would be another "micro-management" thing. You could choose to do it or not, no change from the current game if you choose not to, just a very temporary buff if you do decide to (add it to the Custom settings toolbox to toggle the mechanic on or off, just like Cabin Fever and Sprains can be). You can do it *only* after the snow is melted and the water is boiled, or only done if you "warm" already potable water. Clothing would need to be dried after washing, your character would need to be dried after washing (think wet hair, beard, skin., wet clothes... prone to hypothermia and/or frostbite if you don't get dry and go out into a blizzard...). Making it optional would hopefully save Hinterland from any outcry over *forcing* it on players who do not want to do it. Giving a buff to those who do it would make it feel *worthwhile* to them, perhaps. The same way you can play the game just fine without ever getting the Well Fed buff. It gives players another choice, with a risk/reward attached to it. It takes time, you have additional weight to carry for the soap, and you need a fire. You get to have your clothing last a little longer and have wolves detect you less easily for a day or two.

Upvoted the idea. Hoping for a good discussion on how this might work, pro and cons. And honestly, I have been seeing people ask for a mode even tougher than vanilla Loper for some time now, and others who have said the game feels like it is being made "too easy" with the addition of the Revolver and Birch Bark Tea.  Wouldn't mind seeing the game become a bit tougher again. It's not supposed to be "easy" to survive the Quiet Apocalypse.

 

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This was a great idea and should be implemented.  The scent mechanic is just screaming for this to be enabled.

This is a thread from June, 2018 about Hygiene.

 

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On 6/24/2019 at 7:18 PM, ajb1978 said:

Well, I would be in favor of this, but I think it should be just a water-only bathing thing.  Mainly because if soap is required, the pre-placed soap is going to run out.  And we don't currently have the ingredients in the game to MAKE soap, and even if they did, something like lye isn't something you can just harvest in the forest.  So bathing with soap is a fundamentally finite thing.

As for washing clothes...I agree it's a little unrealistic to wear the same pair of underwear for 1000 days in a row, but the nuances of washing clothes...meeehhh that's a little far in the weeds.  Besides being a major chore to wash clothes by hand, you then would have to let them dry.  And how would you determine which clothes get washed? Probably something alongside the Repair and Harvest options...  That's just too much IMO.  Having to wash up to 16 separate clothing items...that's a lot of tedium, unless the stink builds up so slowly that you can get away with it on about the same timeframe as clothing repairs due to natural decay.

Personal hygiene though, that has merits.  Use 2L of water to bathe, and like @ThePancakeLady suggested, get a 24 hour "clean and fresh" buff where wildlife detection radius goes down by say 10%, letting you get just a smidge closer than normal.  Also, maybe you get one free animal bite with zero infection risk.  You get in a wolf struggle, that first bite carries no infection risk, but you immediately lose your Clean and Fresh buff due to...well..bleeding all over yourself.

Hm. Lye can be made by running water through ashes (would need to be fir) and those could be collected from a fire the same as charcoal. What we don't have in game at the moment is animal fat ~ but if we could harvest that along with meat, it can easily be rendered in one of those pots and added to the lye. Woot, basic soap. It does need to be cured though. Old time 'soft' soap, which is really still hard enough to form into bars, is made by cooking ashes in water (not in aluminum!!) and skimming the weak lye off the top. When you have enough, you cook that down until it floats an egg, add in any rendered fats/used cooking oil, and stir it until you have 'mush'. Pour into molds and let it set. Woot, basic soap. I'm fairly certain that the first soap ever made happened at a caveman's firepit when someone accidently spilled fat into the ashes and someone noticed the nice bubbles when they tried to clean that up :-)

Not washing clothing that you wear day in and day out, or cleaning and airing out fur/hide items leads to galling, blisters, and stank. Gross stank. Your body and your clothes will reek of it. The washing of both the player character and their clothing could all be cut scenes, and we already dry clothing by fires. Making soap could be a learned skill. Lye burns (you do need decent ventilation and to take care not to splash it on yourself because it will burn you) could be natural penalties, and maybe not get good solid bars until level 5 is reached. 

I wouldn't care if it is a clean and fresh buff, less attraction to animals for a time; it really should have been included from just about the start of the game. I wouldn't care if it came about as an option or as a requirement, either would be fine. 

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Just asked a question about hygiene and the potential for bathing in TLD in the Milton mailbag. This was RVLs response :

"Yeah I've thought a lot about hygiene and how to incorporate it into The Long Dark. I'm generally always impressed by RDR/RDR2 and a bit jealous at how effortlessly they incorporate basic survival-type mechanics into those games. For us, we get stuck on a lot of these things because the realization aspect becomes kind of tricky to pull off. But I'm sure there are good solutions that would work within our game as well. I do agree that this should be part of the overall Survival System."

maybe it's something they want to do but have a hard time implementing right now. Im all for bathing and hygiene and would love to see this but based off of his response it may still be a long way out there. Cool to know it's being considered though!

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2 hours ago, loriaw said:

Hm. Lye can be made by running water through ashes (would need to be fir) and those could be collected from a fire the same as charcoal. What we don't have in game at the moment is animal fat ~ but if we could harvest that along with meat, it can easily be rendered in one of those pots and added to the lye. Woot, basic soap. It does need to be cured though. Old time 'soft' soap, which is really still hard enough to form into bars, is made by cooking ashes in water (not in aluminum!!) and skimming the weak lye off the top. When you have enough, you cook that down until it floats an egg, add in any rendered fats/used cooking oil, and stir it until you have 'mush'. Pour into molds and let it set. Woot, basic soap. I'm fairly certain that the first soap ever made happened at a caveman's firepit when someone accidently spilled fat into the ashes and someone noticed the nice bubbles when they tried to clean that up :-)

Not washing clothing that you wear day in and day out, or cleaning and airing out fur/hide items leads to galling, blisters, and stank. Gross stank. Your body and your clothes will reek of it. The washing of both the player character and their clothing could all be cut scenes, and we already dry clothing by fires. Making soap could be a learned skill. Lye burns (you do need decent ventilation and to take care not to splash it on yourself because it will burn you) could be natural penalties, and maybe not get good solid bars until level 5 is reached. 

I wouldn't care if it is a clean and fresh buff, less attraction to animals for a time; it really should have been included from just about the start of the game. I wouldn't care if it came about as an option or as a requirement, either would be fine. 

The only real issue you have, is that fir would not make good lye.  You need hardwood. Which we don't have in the game right now. We do have maple and birch, saplings anyway. They would need to add hardwood to be harvested to burn, to produce the lye. I make old-fashioned soap, and make my own lye. And it is a rather tedious project. Takes lots of white ash, lots of time, and lots of practice to get right. Even the quicker method of boiling the ash in soft water on a stove or fire takes time, and can be a bit dangerous, if you let it boil too hard. Rabbit would provide no tallow, wolves very little that could be used, deer would provide some, but Moose and Bear would have more, usually collected from around the animal's kidneys, to get the highest fat content. And we would need some sort of wooden barrel or plastic bucket to do the leeching in, and something that could be used as a form for the soap to be poured into, to cool and harden off, for cutting into bars. The cooking or leeching pots/barrels and forms would need to have no aluminum in them, as lye is quite caustic, and will eat right through aluminum.

It's a great idea, and I like it, but it would require a ton of work and balancing to make it even semi-realistic.  And I think there would be some players who would enjoy the ritual of soap-making, and some who would find it tedious and too niddly. Honestly, I think using the soap that we have shown in the game already, making it interactive (turning it into very precious loot), and requiring us to make water in a specific amount, then pour it into the metal pails that we can currently only harvest for scrap (but not use to hold or heat water)... "bucket baths" for us and our clothing.  It would still require a good bit of work to add to the game. But... we have the ingredients already. I would love to see them become more than props and a source of scrap only. Still hoping that Hinterland can someday add this to an overall Health and Well-being system, without making it too "burdensome" on players. 

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The processes of soap-making, laundry and bathing could be a machanism to stave off cabin fever if you get stuck inside in a blizzard. 

Also, i know that there are plants (don´t know the names) which are saponin rich and can do the job of soap in a pinch, maybe that could be another harvestable?

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11 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

The only real issue you have, is that fir would not make good lye.  You need hardwood. Which we don't have in the game right now. We do have maple and birch, saplings anyway. They would need to add hardwood to be harvested to burn, to produce the lye. I make old-fashioned soap, and make my own lye. And it is a rather tedious project. Takes lots of white ash, lots of time, and lots of practice to get right. Even the quicker method of boiling the ash in soft water on a stove or fire takes time, and can be a bit dangerous, if you let it boil too hard. Rabbit would provide no tallow, wolves very little that could be used, deer would provide some, but Moose and Bear would have more, usually collected from around the animal's kidneys, to get the highest fat content. And we would need some sort of wooden barrel or plastic bucket to do the leeching in, and something that could be used as a form for the soap to be poured into, to cool and harden off, for cutting into bars. The cooking or leeching pots/barrels and forms would need to have no aluminum in them, as lye is quite caustic, and will eat right through aluminum.

It's a great idea, and I like it, but it would require a ton of work and balancing to make it even semi-realistic.  And I think there would be some players who would enjoy the ritual of soap-making, and some who would find it tedious and too niddly. Honestly, I think using the soap that we have shown in the game already, making it interactive (turning it into very precious loot), and requiring us to make water in a specific amount, then pour it into the metal pails that we can currently only harvest for scrap (but not use to hold or heat water)... "bucket baths" for us and our clothing.  It would still require a good bit of work to add to the game. But... we have the ingredients already. I would love to see them become more than props and a source of scrap only. Still hoping that Hinterland can someday add this to an overall Health and Well-being system, without making it too "burdensome" on players. 

Meh. We play in a world where wildlife is bonkers because of an aurora, everything but human corpses decomposes to nothing in record time, no one can step over a log, and we can't toss tools over the edge of a rope climb without risking falling. Holes can only be chopped in ice to fish from in special locations, brooms are firewood and can't be used to sweep floors, we can sleep with the dead that magically don't stink (and use them for containers!), and fir has been the accepted hardwood from the time Mystery Lake was the only region (which is why I specified 'fir').

Is it really so far fetched to think that fir now contains enough potassium to make lye in a world devoid of both realism and common sense?

People really need to make up their minds. Either the game mechanics are not meant to be realistic and therefore the way things work is fine ~ or ~ the entire game needs to be revamped to be realistic. The devs have stated over and over that this is the way they wish the game to be played, therefore the already-in-game 'hardwood' should be more than sufficient. Cast iron pots (which is what is currently depicted) don't have aluminum in them and lye is actually the preferred cleaning method. A wood box for a mold could be made from pallet scraps (with our imaginary hammer from the toolkit and the imaginary nails from the pallets themselves). It really is not rocket science since cavemen did actually figure it out.

Cut scenes are already the norm, and balancing things is what this game does. Nothing else is even semi-realistic, why would soap making or sponge baths be any different?

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18 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

 I make old-fashioned soap, and make my own lye. And it is a rather tedious project.

Hah!  Funny, I just had a thing of lye arrive today.  This weekend I'm going to try making soap using some lard I rendered off of a few pounds of bacon, and then filtered/chilled. For molds, I took some thermoplastic and wrapped it around bricks of gulf wax I had laying around.  They're a little awkwardly sized, but I can cut them in half for nice sized bars of hand soap.  In retrospect I should have used an actual bar of soap to make the molds, but I'm usually about 3 drinks in when I come up with these crazy weekend schemes.

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Personally, I think there should just be a debuff on a timer bar similar to infection risk or hypothermia risk under the status screen.

Dirty Hands: You've harvested a carcass recently. The smell may attract predators.

Give it a 2 hour duration, or 1 hour if you used a tool instead of your bare hands.

To remove it, add a "Wash Hands" Campcraft option to the radial menu which consumes 1L of water and removes the debuff.

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1 hour ago, ajb1978 said:

Hah!  Funny, I just had a thing of lye arrive today.  This weekend I'm going to try making soap using some lard I rendered off of a few pounds of bacon, and then filtered/chilled. For molds, I took some thermoplastic and wrapped it around bricks of gulf wax I had laying around.  They're a little awkwardly sized, but I can cut them in half for nice sized bars of hand soap.  In retrospect I should have used an actual bar of soap to make the molds, but I'm usually about 3 drinks in when I come up with these crazy weekend schemes.

I use olive pomander oil for "vegan" soap, triple-fatted. Makes a really nice lathery soap that isn't too harsh on skin, regular tallow lye soap for cleaning purposes. Molds? Those little Ziploc "snack" size containers make awesome molds to make big, fat bars, that need no cutting. Lost the lid? Soap mold! Veggie oil soaps tend to be a little softer, tallow soaps are harder, and are better for grinding down into flakes or "powder". I just enjoy keeping some of the old traditions that my Grandma taught me alive. Something very ritualistic about the process, and the tradition, for me, anyway. And I have a ton of soap around. And lots of soap scum, lol! :)

(hint: Dried coffee grounds in the softer soaps makes it smell good, and gives it some exfoliating properties, Dried, finely ground citrus peels + finely milled whole oats, or pre-packaged colloidal oatmeal mixed in, also works nice for a gardener's/mechanic's hand soap.) But this has nothing to do with the game... 🥴

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, loriaw said:

Cut scenes are already the norm, and balancing things is what this game does. Nothing else is even semi-realistic, why would soap making or sponge baths be any different?

This sentiment makes me wonder why we would need this kind of mechanic at all.  :D 

I don't think it would be very fun... and I'm not wild about this turning into a camping simulator.  It's kind of a slippery slope really.  It might start simple enough... oh got to use the soap bar because our "stink lines" are gradually increasing over time... later... oh now we have to clean clothes... later still... oh if we don't change our socks/clothing on a regular basis we get athlete's foot/skin lesions... before you know it we, would have to craft a trowel to dig holes so we can dispose of our human waste and have bladder/bowel bars to monitor as well...

I'm not saying it's a bad idea or a good idea... I am saying this is a potential slippery slope that could send us down into a level of micromanagement that I don't think I would find very fun. 

Edited by ManicManiac
Edited to fix a word :)
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1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

This sentiment makes me wonder why we would need this kind of mechanic at all.  :D 

I don't think it would be very fun... and I'm not wild about this turning into a camping simulator.  It's kind of a slippery slope really.  It might start simple enough... oh got to use the soap bar because our "stink lines" are gradually increasing over time... later... oh now we have to clean clothes... later still... oh if we don't change our socks/clothing on a regular basis we get athlete's foot/skin lesions... before you know it we, would have to craft a trowel to dig holes so we can dispose of our human waste and have bladder/bowel bars to monitor about...

I'm not saying it's a bad idea or a good idea... I am saying this is a potential slippery slope that could send us down into a level of micromanagement that I don't think I would find very fun. 

Lots of people agree with you ~ and others don't. I thought that 'interloper' went down a slippery slope if I'm honest, because it generates a completely unrealistic playstyle based only on beating the mechanics. No skill or thought really goes into it. To my way of thinking, that edged the game away from 'survival' to just gaming the system. I'd have rather seen random wildlife spawns and a whole lot more immersion. Not my game so I just play less and less due to utterly nothing to do, nothing to be surprised by, etc. 30 days in and I can't really find much of a reason to even bother going to other regions because I know what is there, what will be worth the effort and what won't … I'm sure you can understand. Some people like loot fests, others prefer immersion that keeps them deeply involved for hours at a time. Initially this game did that. Now, not so much. I've just got too many hours in to even get excited much about a new region that will have the exact same loot, the exact same buildings and furniture, and within two hours of real time wandering around also known and permanent wildlife spawns. I could care less about those things at this point. I want variety, surprises, heart stopping moments and giddiness because I eked out another day in spite of Ma Nature's rage. Any new player can get all of that in a single region. Many of us did. 

There were no tutorials, no hand holding, no custom settings; just a great unknown map with precious little to get by with. The problem is that once you 'know' the mechanics, the maps, and where the good stuff is there is no more reason to explore. I can run a 500 day run in just DP or BR … but the question is 'why' would I at this point. Endless days of eat, sleep, hunt, eat, sleep, cook, eat, sleep, sew, eat, sleep, hunt. Even covering every region it is still the same. 

I'd rather take the time to craft my own little forge out of a wheel from one of those vehicles, or a bucket that got kicked in a corner than run three regions over to use one. I'd rather spend time doing something meaningful than just endlessly and aimlessly roaming around talking to trees I actually named 1000 hours ago. So ~ I give my input. I don't mind that others have differing views, but that won't change mine.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, loriaw said:

~ and others don't.

I'm sure there are many who don't agree with me, and that's okay.  I'm just weighing in on the topic for the sake of discussion.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, these kinds of discussions are not about win/lose or right/wrong... I just give folks something to consider, whether they agree or disagree is up to them.   :) 

Edited by ManicManiac
corrected spelling error

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1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

I'm sure there are many how don't agree with me, and that's okay.  I'm just weighing in on the topic for the sake of discussion.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, these kinds of discussions are not about win/lose or right/wrong... I just give folks something to consider, whether they agree or disagree is up to them.   :) 

Same here 😀

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Wait...did two people just civilly disagree...on the INTERNET?

That's the power of TLD, ladies and gents.

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