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Why isn't the way sprains and bites handled intelligent? You're turning this into a micromanagement game and it's seriously making me upset that I spent money on this game.

You're supposedly making advancements on the story that you keep rethinking and adjusting and stalling on delivering on. But I think I could handle that if you weren't fucking with the survival game so much. (pardon my language).

When you get a sprain or are hurt from a bite, if there's pain, why the hell do I need to indicate that pain medicine is to resolve the PAIN? Seriously, Or that antiseptic is for the infection risk? Now you've also added that you need to bandage a sprain? Great. So why do I need to indicate that the bandage is for the actual sprain and not for the pain? If you really want to make this a micromanagement game, then why not force the player to do things in a specific order or it doesn't work at all? Why not make it that you have to clean the wound, apply antiseptic AND THEN apply a bandage to it? If you're not trying for a micromanagement game, then make the system intelligent. I took pain pills, it resolves the pain. Or if I apply the bandage first, then it covers the wound or sprain. 

You've finally added a pistol, and while it's not the greatest thing, you've listened and are trying to work with us. Great. Except, unlike the rifle or the flare gun(have not checked if you changed it on the flare gun since the last game update), you can randomly fire it if you have it unholstered and you are going to pick something up, open a door or otherwise click an action, but you've accidentally overshot the action area and the dot isn't on what you want to do. I'm a jumpy person by nature so accidentally firing the pistol four or five times in a game also leads to more frustration.

But, frankly, the sprain system and the micromanagement of the rest make this more a frustration engine game anymore. I can't play it without ending up snarling tot he point my wife tells me to stop playing. This isn't how a game is supposed to be.

Now it's down to if I'm ever going to play again, which upsets me as I spent money on this (I think, I may have gotten this through humble bundle, but money was invested), and you actually had me invested in finding out the story when (if?) you actually delivered on the promised remaining episodes. Why should I bother with half of the game if the other half is unplayable?

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Each of us has aspects of games that frustrate us.  All I can do is respond by trying to help you to mitigate some of those "snarling" aspects...BTW, your wife should video you while your snarl and post it here! 😉

  • Revolver...yeah, that's happened to me once or twice.  I try to keep it holstered unless I really need it.  A quick press of the 2 key readys it.
  • Sprains...lots of discussion on this one...for now, try to avoid surfaces which are prone to spraining.
  • I'm not sure I fully understand how you think the game is turning into micromanagement.  Could you provide some examples and also some proposed solutions?
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I think you were a little harsh in your post, but at the same time the Sprain / Pain System is getting a lil funky... 

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I think the new sprains system could be more or less difficult to apprehend, depending of the player.

Personally, before the update, I already have an obsession to keep my gear's weight to the minimum as possible. Each day, I go through my inventory to keep the bare minimum, while being reasonably prepared for everything and storing the rest at my base. This make my character almost never being overweight and most of time, having a 5-7 kg to spare in case. Additionally, I was already avoiding steep hill and crest. I naturally tried to get the most easiest route, either to preserve my energy and to have the best line of sight at each time.

So, since the new sprain system, I've played around 40 hours and had only one sprain, even counting this little time between the Steadfast Ranger initial release and the hotfix to fix the mistake in sprain risk calculation which end up with a tons of sprains for a lot of peoples.

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Posted (edited)

@galenwolfe,
I think that for those who get to know the game can cope pretty well.  It's possible that this game isn't right for you.  Part of the flavor of this game is the struggle, the fight for survival.  That includes having to manage your resources, dealing with injuries and illness, and all those things you seem to take issue with.  I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, but if you honestly don't enjoy the game... perhaps you can find one that is a better fit for you and closer to the type of experience you are looking for.

Also, consider how much you've played vs how much you paid... if anyone has played for any significant amount of time it will have only cost pennies per hour.  There are plenty of games with virtually no replayability that only offer many 5-10 hours of gameplay that cost upwards of $60 or more... I see there are people with literally thousands of hours on The Long Dark.  I think we have been getting much more than our money's worth from this wonderful game.  :) 

Edited by ManicManiac
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To address some of the issues you've brought up let's start with agreeing that people's opinions are their own and your taste in what makes a fun game is valid to you. We aren't going to spend any time arguing that you're wrong to dislike some aspect of the game because it's your opinion and it's the right one for you. We made a similar point on your review on Steam, or at least we assume it's yours given that much of the same points are raised in the same order and tone.

So onto addressing some of the less subjective points you've made:

- WINTERMUTE STORY MODE: we understand that players are anxious to continue the story and we are hard at work delivering it. You note that we are "rethinking and adjusting and stalling" and that's perhaps an unfair way of framing it based upon your personal frustration but certainly we have not rushed out Episodes 3, 4 and 5 simply for the sake of rushing them out. We are fortunate to be in a position where we are not meeting artificial deadlines or being pressured by a publisher to shove out content that we don't feel is the best it possibly could be. We are able to take time to improve on what we've done as we did with the REDUX Update to Episodes 1 and 2 and we feel that this will make for better Episodes down the line as well.

Your willingness to wait for that is up to you but we have done our best to ensure that the community understands the decisions we're making and how that's going to produce the best-finished game.

- Mechanics Changes / Micromanagement: Here we get into a subjective area and one that it's hard to argue with you about without telling you that your opinion is wrong, which of course it isn't because it's your opinion on a matter of taste. We make adjustments to The Long Dark based upon our own ideas about what the game should be as well as player feedback. We listen to all types of players from all over the community and even within the community there's no single vision for what the game should be. Add on top of that that we do have a vision for the player experience and you'll definitely find times where we diverge from what's requested. What we hope is that the game we are making is one that the majority of our players enjoy.

Not everyone will like every change or tweak. Not everyone will like a change for the same reason someone else will.

If you find that our changes make you no longer enjoy playing the game then we're sorry to hear that because we do want people to enjoy the game but we're not sorry for making the changes.

We're also not quite clear on what you mean by micromanagement as there has always been a degree of managing things in the game. You need to worry about the weight you're carrying, wear the best combination of clothing and keep your gear in good condition. 

- Sprains / Pistol: All of this fits above as well. As noted you can holster the pistol if you find that you're accidentally shooting it. With sprains we wanted to provide more information to the player about when they were at risk of injury.

- Value: Value is subjective. If you feel that your outlay for The Long Dark wasn't worth the time you've enjoyed it that's something for you to conclude. We're sorry to hear that anyone feels like they've been ripped off by us, whether they've played 15 minutes or hundreds of hours. However we are comitted to delivering the best possible game and are continuing to work towards that goal. 

Episode 3 (as well as 4 and 5) of WINTERMUTE is coming as are more free updates to Survival Mode. If you're not enjoying playing The Long Dark then don't, never play a game you don't enjoy. But we do hope that you stop by one day in the future to see if something's changed and you can let the experience of surviving in the Quiet Apocalypse back into your life.

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Posted (edited)

@Admin I'll play devil's advocate here, their tone didnt help others understand what they're saying.

By micromanagement I think he means how you have to select the specific affliction for each item, if you apply the pain pills to the wrong sprain or apply old mans beard to the sprain by accident instead of your wound accidentally it wastes resources and potentially kills you. 

This could be improved if the first aid screen would allow you to apply medical items from there as well. 

Edited by MarrowStone

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MarrowStone said:

By micromanagement I think he means how you have to select the specific affliction for each item, if you apply the pain pills to the wrong sprain or apply old mans beard to the sprain by accident instead of your wound accidentally it wastes resources and potentially kills you. 

This could be improved if the first aid screen would allow you to apply medical items from there as well.

But this is not an issue if the player just pays attention to what they are doing. :) 
I think this game does not need more "Are you sure you want to do this?" type of prompts.

Edited by ManicManiac
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2 hours ago, Admin said:

To address...don't enjoy. But we do hope that you stop by one day in the future to see if something's changed and you can let the experience of surviving in the Quiet Apocalypse back into your life.

I don't know how you keep your cool by reading and responding to these all day, @Admin!  You have my admiration.

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1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

But this is not an issue if the player just pays attention to what they are doing.

This is really the crux of the matter. This game punishes not paying attention to what you're doing when you're doing it. I personally like that aspect of it... that there's a real possibility that you can screw up applying first aid to yourself and waste resources, which is a real departure from how most video games handle picking up medkits, but it's probably not everybody's cup of herbal tea.

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6 minutes ago, stratvox said:

This game punishes not paying attention to what you're doing when you're doing it. I personally like that aspect of it...

Yes, absolutely.  I think it's the best when a game punishes you for your mistakes.

Death may be inevitable in The Long Dark, but it's most often a consequence of our own bad decisions. :D 

I admit I was more than little bit disappointed when the team added that "Are you sure you want to do this?" prompt for raw meat.

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What I found most enlightening about this thread is the fact that you just have to fling the F-word a few times and be really, really pissed to get some attention from the staff. I'm effing gonna keep that in mind, goshdarnit.

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45 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

What I found most enlightening about this thread is the fact that you just have to fling the F-word a few times and be really, really pissed to get some attention from the staff. I'm effing gonna keep that in mind, goshdarnit.

That should not be the take away.

we engage when we can add context, details or perspectives to a discussion. Simply being argumentative or offensive would likely result in post deletion and a warning, suspension or ban.

 

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Just now, Admin said:

That should not be the take away.

we engage when we can add context, details or perspectives to a discussion. Simply being argumentative or offensive would likely result in post deletion and a warning, suspension or ban.

 

Pretty sure he was kidding...at least I hope so.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Admin said:

That should not be the take away.

we engage when we can add context, details or perspectives to a discussion. Simply being argumentative or offensive would likely result in post deletion and a warning, suspension or ban.

 

Call my a cynical son of a bear, but you kinda just proved my point right there :D But of course, as a man of manners if will behave as I am known to do.

Edited by jeffpeng

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3 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

But of course, as a man of manner if will behave as I am known to do.

I'm not sure I know what you are trying to say... you are not making much sense right now.

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17 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I'm not sure I know what you are trying to say... you are not making much sense right now.

Determining if it is my lack of expression or your lack of understanding, or a combination of both - and if to what degree - is beyond my humble capabilites.

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2 hours ago, hozz1235 said:

I don't know how you keep your cool by reading and responding to these all day, @Admin!  You have my admiration.

Here! Here! The admin is a better man than I, assuming of course he's a guy. 😁

16 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I'm not sure I know what you are trying to say... you are not making much sense right now.

I think the if should have been an I.

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Just now, Hawk said:

Here! Here! The admin is a better man than I, assuming of course he's a guy. 😁

I think the if should have been an I.

So you solved the mystery! Bravo, you are correct.

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I think it's interesting that the sprain system now is, in some ways, back to the way it was in one of the super early builds.  Like before I even started playing, and I only know about it from reading the pre-release alpha changelog.  Sprains used to require a special bandage to treat, and at some point they updated it to only require painkillers.  Now we're back to requiring bandages.

I would say I think that painkillers should just treat ALL your pain at once, with one dose.  Because I mean if I have a headache, and my nascent arthritis is acting up, one dose of Excedrin is probably good for the lot of it.  Since "pain" doesn't really do anything besides stop you from reading books, painkillers are almost entirely useless at this point.  May as well superpower them, give them a bit more reason to exist.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ManicManiac said:
2 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

But of course, as a man of manner if will behave as I am known to do.

I'm not sure I know what you are trying to say... you are not making much sense right now.

1 hour ago, jeffpeng said:

Determining if it is my lack of expression or your lack of understanding, or a combination of both - and if to what degree - is beyond my humble capabilites.

:D Alright... I will happily take you though the paces:
Firstly, I was asking in earnest what you were trying to convey, but you have replied in an unnecessarily rude fashion.

If you noticed what I quoted, you will find that your grammar was a bit odd, and your sentence seemed a little nonsensical as a result.
I mean, granted you've been rather snarky on this thread anyway, but lashing back at me for trying to clarify your typographical errors really wasn't warranted.

I do hope you have a pleasant day. :) 

Edited by ManicManiac

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15 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

I would say I think that painkillers should just treat ALL your pain at once, with one dose

That's what I mean, just up the required dose for multiple. 

Currently if you apply painkillers to a bleeding wound instead of your sprain it does nothing. I personally don't think that should be excused with "You weren't careful to select the right ailment, therefore you should suffer." 

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18 minutes ago, MarrowStone said:

That's what I mean, just up the required dose for multiple. 

Currently if you apply painkillers to a bleeding wound instead of your sprain it does nothing. I personally don't think that should be excused with "You weren't careful to select the right ailment, therefore you should suffer." 

I do think taking painkillers 4 times, and needing to chose which sprain or pain affliction you take them for is a bit unintuitive. I will agree with @ajb1978 on that, and I do think you should have to up the dosage a bit to treat multiple injuries. A choice of 2 pills or 4 pills, if you have more than one injury that require painkillers to treat. A single injury could present only the option to take 2 pills. And I also feel that you should have to chose which injury to apply different treatments to. You are cold, out of your known element, desperately trying to stay alive in a way that city life never made you learn. Sticking 2 Tylenol on top of a laceration should do nothing. Putting a bandage on your aching head should do nothing as well.  Dosage choices for multiple similar injuries does make sense to me. IRL, if my arthritis pain is not too great, 1 Aleve usually makes it lessen enough for me to function. If it's really bad, I may need up to the maximum daily dose (3 pills) to put a dent in it. Same with "regular" headaches vs. migraine headaches for me. In game, I just play it like we are taking Aleve or Tylenol, an OTC pain med, since I have seen no pharmacies around where prescription meds would have come from. Maybe they should change the art to look more like a "typical" aspirin bottle instead of a prescription bottle?

But this is a game, not IRL. They wanted, and needed, a way to make your choices and actions mean something, and have some impact on gameplay. Not a general "cheese-it-all" mechanic that might feel shallow and unimportant. And they did give us Custom Settings, to turn off sprains, and camera dampening to turn the limping-gimping animations on or off. And the options for certain less-life-threatening injuries, to just keep going without treating them, letting time/sleep heal them over a really "unrealistically" short amount of time. Heck, we can even sleep off food poisoning over 18 hours, if we have enough condition to survive, with nothing else draining condition at the same time. I am fine with it as it is. It makes me stop and think about what I am doing when I play, something a "thoughtful" game experience should do, IMHO. It isn't overly complicated (it could be much more so for the sake of "reality"). It just requires my attention enough to make me feel it. Just like taking my 12 prescription meds IRL does. If I am not paying attention, and take the wrong one, for the wrong thing, at the wrong time, I do pay for it.

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Deleted two replies as we are getting a bit off the original topic and starting a vaudeville bit.

Talk about the original posters issues with the game and the subsequent replies. Thank you.

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Posted (edited)

I know we sort of had a similar conversation a little while back.  I still find that I don't have much use for pain meds these days.  I collect them and I store them, but I find I never really feel the need to use them.  The pain effect doesn't seem to really hinder us in any meaningful way, and it doesn't last for too long (all things considered).  Yes, there is the blur effect around the periphery and a bit of a sound dampening effect... but if we get a sprained ankle, treating the pain won't let us get back to sprinting.  Bandages seem to be more valuable than pain medication since the system was reworked.

(*edit: I did forget about pain impairing our ability to read skill books... that's a good point as well)

However, I do like the ideas put forth though about dosage vs the number of pain afflictions.  *Specifically: if you have four sprains, have the option of taking up to 4 doses in that one action.  This way you'll use the same amount of medication, you just won't have to repeat the action 4 times achieve that same result.*  @ajb1978 & @ThePancakeLady both have some really good thoughts on this, and to those I agree.

Edited by ManicManiac

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