Snow Shelter Improvement


Martin Prchal

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I would like to see the option make a snow shelter without the cloth. It would obviosuly give a smaller warmth bonus than the one with the cloth. Once the cloth-less one was made, there could be an option to "reinforce" the existing shelter with the 5 cloth to give the full bonus. This would make snow shelters a renewable resouce and one that people could use in difficulties where cloth becomes a rare resource. 

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@Martin Prchal,
The requirement for cloth is what makes it an important decision on where and when to make one... After all sticks are essentially free, and if there is no meaningful cost/sacrifice a player will just have free shelter anytime and anywhere they want.  I think that would take away a lot from the game.  The need to use a limited and valuable resource make a player really consider if that quick shelter is really necessary... or if they should just press on to the cave or wind-blocked spot that is likely just ahead.

Every choice should have a cost/consequence... to me an effectively no-cost show shelter would just feel cheap, and take away from that sense of struggle that I love so much in this game.

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1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

@Martin Prchal,
The requirement for cloth is what makes it an important decision on where and when to make one... After all sticks are essentially free, and if there is no meaningful cost/sacrifice a player will just have free shelter anytime and anywhere they want.  I think that would take away a lot from the game.  The need to use a limited and valuable resource make a player really consider if that quick shelter is really necessary... or if they should just press on to the cave or wind-blocked spot that is likely just ahead.

Every choice should have a cost/consequence... to me an effectively no-cost show shelter would just feel cheap, and take away from that sense of struggle that I love so much in this game.

I agree.  However, other people have suggested allowing an option to make a snow shelter using either cloth or a deer hide.  Originally, I wasn't in favor of that idea either, but I've warmed up to it the longer I've played.  I don't think emergency snow shelters should be a finite item.  That is, if players do survive long enough that they are truly running out of cloth, they should still be able to somehow build an emergency shelter.   If there was an alternative to use hides instead, then the players would have an option to use a renewable resource rather than one that is perhaps plentiful, but not renewable.   In that case, I think dismantling a shelter should return only the sticks.  To balance it with the current cloth one, the cost in cloth could be reduced by 2 cloth, meaning that each shelter would cost 15 sticks and 3 cloth OR 1 deer hide (cured our uncured) and 15 sticks to build and return only 10 sticks when dismantled.  In addition, the shelters could be repaired using cloth or rabbit skins.

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17 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

...That is, if players do survive long enough that they are truly running out of cloth, they should still be able to somehow build an emergency shelter.

I would posit that if a player has survived that long, they shouldn't have too much use for emergency shelters.  I'd say that by the time they run out of cloth, it would be reasonable to assume they would have also gotten proficient at survival and navigating the terrain.  :D 

Edited by ManicManiac
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Snow shelters made from sticks only gets a "No" from me. Too OP, too "easy".

Made using sticks and animal pelts... maybe. But limited to one type. Made from deer hide- repaired with deer hide. Bunny pelts are far too plentiful, and far to "easy" to get, once you have snares set up and/or become proficient at stoning them.

Perhaps if a new variant of the snow shelter was made with a more "expensive" hide... 2 wolf pelts, 1 bear pelt, or 1 moose pelt, and given longer durability over time (slower decay), and perhaps some additional "armor protection" (in addition to clothing worn), if you are attacked by a predator while in the snow shelter.  Maybe a few degrees of added warmth inside.

Sticks for repair, slower decay rate, and a new pelt only needed if the shelter decays to 50% or less? (Would be better if a mechanic was added to "halve" a pelt used for repair, but adding that new mechanic may not be so "easy" at it sounds.) So it becomes a longer lasting, more protected shelter, with a higher cost to build and maintain. So you have to choose between continuing on, building the cloth & sticks "basic" snow shelter, or the "upgraded" Bear/Moose/ or Wolf pelt snow shelter. (Though I feel it should be only one of those... not all three... up to Hinterland to decide, for balancing and gameplay value, if they would decide to add it.)

Edited by ThePancakeLady
corrected typos, added additional text for clarification
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Guest kristaok

I think we should be able to make a Snow Shelter with Hide as well, we should also be able to make a Snow Shelter out of... well... SNOW. 

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I have to admit that I am still a new player, and the whole idea came to me while I was exploring HRV and having problems with finding shelter. Now that I think about it, I really would never use a snow shelter in any other zone because I already know them well enough to always give myself enough time to find shelter. It would be a bit too easy to be able to get an easy shelter whenever I want. 

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5 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

I would posit that if a player has survived that long, they shouldn't have too much use for emergency shelters.  I'd say that by the time they run out of cloth, it would be reasonable to assume they would have also gotten proficient at survival and navigating the terrain.  :D 

However, the longer the game goes on, the weather worsens so being caught in a serious blizzard is more probable.

The reason I suggested deer hide and rabbit hide to repair is to maintain the idea that this is an emergency shelter, not a planned shelter to build at a campsite.  Deer hides and rabbits are something that the player might have in their inventory in even the lowest difficulty (pilgrim), although at higher difficulties, wolf hides are actually more likely.

If players are not inclined to ever use them because they can navigate the terrain, then your concept of the cost of them (in cloth) weighing in the decision doesn't come into play anyways.

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8 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

However, the longer the game goes on, the weather worsens so being caught in a serious blizzard is more probable.

Not really.. because the longer we survive the more familiar we will be with the area we are in... we quickly find that areas we can hunker down in are pretty much always close by.  Sure it might not be a proper shelter... but I've weathered plenty of blizzards just by finding a spot that was wind-blocked.  If the wind changes you just shift positions to another near by landmark that does provide wind protection.

Snow shelters seem more for those that haven't really cut their teeth in a particular region, so they don't know how best to leverage their surroundings for shelter (in which case, that convenience should absolutely come at a cost).  :) 

Edited by ManicManiac
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1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

 

Not really.. because the longer we survive the more familiar we will be with the area we are in... we quickly find that areas we can hunker down in are pretty much always close by.  Sure it might not be a proper shelter... but I've weathered plenty of blizzards just by finding a spot that was wind-blocked.  If the wind changes you just shift positions to another near by landmark that does provide wind protection.

Snow shelters seem more for those that haven't really cut their teeth in a particular region, so they don't know how best to leverage their surroundings for shelter (in which case, that convenience should absolutely come at a cost).  :) 

It's not fire starters that you can eventually run out of completely (mag lens will work forever whenever the sun shines)... it's cloth and metal (although both are plentiful).  You do need cloth to both make and repair a bearskin bedroll and, if you need cloth to make a snow shelter as well, you better hope you don't need to sleep outside of a ready-made bed then.  I think a hide or two to make a snow shelter represents a "cost";  it's just a renewable resource as opposed to a finite one.

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8 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

it's just a renewable resource as opposed to a finite one.

And I would suggest that it's the requirement of that finite resource that makes it such an important choice - the fact that it requires something that is non-renewable a real cost to weigh.  I just don't think it would be a good choice from a gameplay standpoint to cheapen the snow shelters by being able to substitute the meaningful cost with a renewable resource as an alternative...  :) 

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1 minute ago, ManicManiac said:

And I would suggest that it's the requirement of that finite resource that makes it such an important choice - the fact that it requires something that is non-renewable a real cost to weigh.  I just don't think it would be a good choice from a gameplay standpoint to cheapen the snow shelters by being able to substitute the meaningful cost with a renewable resource as an alternative...  :) 

Well, then I think they should remove the mag lens and make starting a fire a more important choice as well.

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Just now, UpUpAway95 said:

Well, then I think they should remove the mag lens and make starting a fire a more important choice as well.

And you have every right to feel that way, if that's your opinion.

We just don't happen to agree on this particular topic, and that's okay. :) 

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I don't use snow shelters, but as far as using hides go, perhaps instead of a fixed number of hides in lieu of cloth, the alternate animal hide form of a snow shelter might require a certain weight of hides in lieu of cloth. For the sake of discussion, the weight of hides required to substitute has to be twice that of cloth required. So say one kilo of hides so that would equate to two deer hides or two wolf hides or one bear hide or  one moose hide. As far as rabbit pelts go, perhaps twice that for rabbit pelts (e.g. twenty) since those are "small" and maybe add a few pieces of line (used only for fishing tackle) to tie the pelts together. How much is recovered depends on whether the hides are cured (50% chance) or uncured (0%). 

This would provide some cost to using animal hides for a snow shelter. Of course this would be a lot of work for Hinterland, but if they ever have "free" time :), they might look at it.

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17 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

And you have every right to feel that way, if that's your opinion.

We just don't happen to agree on this particular topic, and that's okay. :) 

What I'm getting at is that there are two opposing philosophies at work here... should long, long runs be sustainable with renewable resources or not.  There's now a thread running about "the last saping" and people there have suggested that birch respawn after 1,000 days.  Based on that philosophy, then cat tails should also respawn.

It's not about "cost" making the game easier or harder.  Whether or not one can use a hide or two instead of cloth to make an emergency shelter doesn't make the game easier.  Hides require energy to get even more than cloth does.  Both are plentiful in the early going.  The finite nature of cloth only comes into the decision-making when the player perceives that they are running out of it.  Same with matches.  Having a mag lens doesn't make the game easier.  It makes a run sustainable longer.  That's all.

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I have not needed a snow shelter in my last 1,000 game days at Voyager - Stalker level.  I think that I have only built a snow shelter two or three times in over 2,500 days.

Once you have visited all of the areas, (without the help of those excellent, but game-spoiling, Whiteberry maps), and you have a good idea where shelter is to be found then planning your travel to fit in with the weather removes the likelihood of you being caught out in a blizzard.

 

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1 hour ago, peteloud said:

I have not needed a snow shelter in my last 1,000 game days at Voyager - Stalker level.  I think that I have only built a snow shelter two or three times in over 2,500 days.

Once you have visited all of the areas, (without the help of those excellent, but game-spoiling, Whiteberry maps), and you have a good idea where shelter is to be found then planning your travel to fit in with the weather removes the likelihood of you being caught out in a blizzard.

 

... and it's not really relevant because it is meant to be an emergency shelter.  Some people go through their entire lives without experiencing an emergency despite not being familiar in any way with surviving one.  Knowing the maps doesn't necessarily mean you won't get caught out in a blizzard.  Case in point - I fell into the ice in Forlorn Muskeg during an intense fog and no bedroll (since it was ruined in an earlier attack).  Upon coming out of the ice, I could not see enough to know where I really wound up on the map after I made it to solid ground.  Building an emergency shelter and a fire cost me a lot in sticks alone, but it save my run because I likely would have frozen to death in wet clothing had I stumbled around for any length of time looking for a familiar landmark to path to a cave or other shelter... and I would have still needed a bedroll in order to have slept unless I made my way specifically to Spence's farm.

The reality is that hides cost the player more in calories to obtain than cloth.  Using up a hide for an emergency shelter is not going to be an easy decision at any stage of the game.  If you have 5 cloth on you when you need the shelter, you'll likely still use the cloth.  If you don't but you happen to have a hide or two on you, you'd likely be grateful to use it in the event of an emergency.  It's an option and one that makes the option of building a snow shelter sustainable no matter how long you've been at the run.  It doesn't make the run any easier overall.

Edited by UpUpAway95
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4 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Whether or not one can use a hide or two instead of cloth to make an emergency shelter doesn't make the game easier.  Hides require energy to get even more than cloth does.

...and I don't personally have any issues with this idea.  I was just putting forth the idea that snow shelters themselves are more of a safety net for players in the early game (when cloth is plentiful anyway).  I was suggesting that by late game a successful survivor (by and large) knows the lay of the land, and knows how to use the wind-breaks, caves, and structures a lot better.  This minimizes the need for a safety net (a.k.a. snow shelters) :) 

At the same time I was expressing wariness about introducing a lot of "easily sustainable" solutions... part of what I love most about this game is that sense of struggle.  Knowing our resources will eventually run out, so we have to be wise and metered in how we use them.  I never want to feel "safe" in this game... we already have a lot of renewable resources and sustainable systems in the game, and I'm just expressing concern of there eventually being too many.

I mean we already have players capable to surviving for 10 in-game years... which tells me the existing systems are more than adequate. :D 

Edited by ManicManiac
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1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

...and I don't personally have any issues with this idea.  I was just putting forth the idea that snow shelters themselves are more of a safety net for players in the early game (when cloth is plentiful anyway).  I was suggesting that by late game a successful survivor (by and large) knows the lay of the land, and knows how to use the wind-breaks, caves, and structures a lot better.  This minimizes the need for a safety net (a.k.a. snow shelters) :) 

At the same time I was expressing wariness about introducing a lot of "easily sustainable" solutions... part of what I love most about this game is that sense of struggle.  Knowing our resources will eventually run out, so we have to be wise and metered in how we use them.  I never want to feel "safe" in this game... we already have a lot of renewable resources and sustainable systems in the game, and I'm just expressing concern of there eventually being too many.

I mean we already have players capable to surviving for 10 in-game years... which tells me the existing systems are more than adequate. :D 

Unless you happen to fall in the ice during a fog on the open muskeg and happen to have a hide and no cloth on you...  The tension of survival, IMO, is ultimately about the energy you need to expend to acquire what you need and whether or not you have access to what you need when you need it... not about hoarding enough stuff ahead of time to coast until the save file ends forcibly because of running right out of some finite resource.

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@UpUpAway95
:D I wasn't talking about hoarding and coasting either... :D 

Frankly though, if a player manages to fall though the ice on the muskeg, then it's kind of a deserved fate... I've had it happen before, and I just hunkered down in the railway car.  Used some coal and sticks until my clothes dried out.  It's not really what I would consider a snow shelter kind of emergency. :) 

I agree with you on that the tension is a lot about trying to get what you need when you know you are not well equipped...

As to some of your implications: I don't "hibernate" or stockpile.  I build up little caches sure... with maybe a day or two's worth of supplies; but mostly I roam.

However, we are getting off topic now... I just don't see a need to change how the snow shelter works or the requirements to make it.  I think it's just fine the way it is.  You don't agree, and that's okay  ...I'm going to leave it at that.

Edited by ManicManiac
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If shelters could be built with pelts (or rather cured hides), I'd finally start using them. In general, the regions where it would be wise to build and maintain a shelter are the ones that are super-scarce in cloth, so I never built a single shelter ever, for fear of wasting cloth.

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1 hour ago, melcantspell said:

If shelters could be built with pelts (or rather cured hides), I'd finally start using them. In general, the regions where it would be wise to build and maintain a shelter are the ones that are super-scarce in cloth, so I never built a single shelter ever, for fear of wasting cloth.

Same here.  I can recall one specific instance where I had a bedroll ruined in a bear attack, I was too exhausted to make it back to the Mountaineer's Hut, so I ended up ripping up my ruined bedroll to craft a snow shelter, just so I could catch some sleep.   I literally use snow shelters less often than emergency stims, that's how rarely they are necessary.

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35 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

Same here.  I can recall one specific instance where I had a bedroll ruined in a bear attack, I was too exhausted to make it back to the Mountaineer's Hut, so I ended up ripping up my ruined bedroll to craft a snow shelter, just so I could catch some sleep.   I literally use snow shelters less often than emergency stims, that's how rarely they are necessary.

I've used 1 emergency stim in an emergency.  The only  other time I've used them is for health management in variants of deadman.  I've used several snow shelters though.  Most times, I could have perhaps pushed through to a ready-made shelter or found a cranny in a rock, but I like the role-play aspect of having the ability to build such a shelter and I think it's a shame that people don't use them out of fear of using up their available cloth, which they perceive as needing for other things.

 

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