How long before you started mapping?

[coryduran]

I'm curious how many other players begin attempting to map the environment?

I believe it took me until my third or fourth play through to start creating maps of areas. I quickly realized that there were too many similar looking areas, that it was too easy to become disoriented leaving you stuck in bad weather, or wandering too a location into the middle of nowhere.

[elloco999]

I pretty much started making a map immediately. But I have to admit I got lazy and when I found a post about a map on the forum I never bothered to finish my own.

[coryduran]

I pretty much started making a map immediately. But I have to admit I got lazy and when I found a post about a map on the forum I never bothered to finish my own.

Haha I don't fault you, I made about five small maps of various areas, and I started trying to combine them into a more cohesive map (coastal highway), and I said nvm and found a topo map online, although that being said I do keep my hand drawn maps as a reference, they have some landmarks in them none of the online maps have that can be useful for getting my bearings if I'm lost in a storm etc.

[Cosmoline]

The on-line maps are pretty spotty. I've used them as references, but mostly rely on my memory based on landscape features and the wolf spawns. In my latest play, I spawned at 2 AM in the middle of a huge blizzard, and only survived because I remembered the slope of ground away from the track when it past near the lake office.

This, BTW, is actually a very, very useful skill to have in the real world. Learning how to read a variety of reference points and landmarks will serve you better than a lot of maps in the wilderness. And never trust the signage people stick up on trees.

[The_Hawk35]

I mostly use the online maps at this point. But I do note on the maps what I leave behind in various buildings as I don't pick up anything I don't need so it doesn't degrade.

[Lux]

I know its a bit extreme but IMO, Hinterland should issue take-down notices to sources of the in-game maps people have created.

Or you can just be smart and not completely ruin the immersive experience for yourself, by nOt looking at them ever.

One of the most fun parts of the game is exploration, and having a map of everything you didn't create yourself is really ruining your own experience but hey, its your experience.

It would be nice if there was an in-game map that only filled in areas you've visited and did nOt show items and bodies, only landscape and buildings. That would save the pen and paper and maybe help people to explore things on their own.

People are so funny... you have to lead them around with a prize to get them to do anything, most of the time. They don't see the value in learning on their own. Maybe that is just a result of horrible school systems but that's another argument.

[coryduran]

I know its a bit extreme but IMO, Hinterland should issue take-down notices to sources of the in-game maps people have created.

Or you can just be smart and not completely ruin the immersive experience for yourself, by nOt looking at them ever.

One of the most fun parts of the game is exploration, and having a map of everything you didn't create yourself is really ruining your own experience but hey, its your experience.

It would be nice if there was an in-game map that only filled in areas you've visited and did nOt show items and bodies, only landscape and buildings. That would save the pen and paper and maybe help people to explore things on their own.

People are so funny... you have to lead them around with a prize to get them to do anything, most of the time. They don't see the value in learning on their own. Maybe that is just a result of horrible school systems but that's another argument.

I think that would be a bit extreme and actually counter-productive to creating communities like the one you see here nvm the fact that I question if they would have any legal authority to issue take down notices. I mean, under that logic, none of us should be on this forum explaining how we all deal with different in game challenges. Anyone who reads about the wolf mechanic on the forums is "ruin(ing) the immersive experience" for themselves. I do agree that the exploration is the fun, but i guess personally i see it as an exercise in wasting time to try and create all my own maps as thoroughly as they already exist, while also actively taking me out of the game as I have to pause and draw. I agree that I would love an in game map (realistically if I was that survivor I would be making an attempt to map the area if I'm surviving 30-100+, but since there is no in game map, for myself sitting there trying to map all these zones by hand directly takes time away from me actually exploring the game myself, and creating a map of a virtual world from the real world is more difficult than making a real map would be.

Although perhaps all of that is just how I justify using other people's maps. As others in the thread have said, I don't really use any of the maps anymore because I more or less have all the regions/areas memorized at this point, and I look very forward to the process of exploring a new region, maybe I'll even make an attempt to be one of the first to map it (Release the update on a Thursday hinterland, that's when my weekend starts!) I wouldn't fault players who see both the usefulness of a map, and the waste of time it would be for them to completely design a map from scratch on their own.

I like what some others have mentioned about altering existing maps and keeping notes on maps of how they are managing resources. I do the same thing, I try and keep an inventory of what I have and where. I definitely believe in altering the maps online, due to the fact that they do leave out a noticeable amount of areas/landmarks.

The on-line maps are pretty spotty. I've used them as references, but mostly rely on my memory based on landscape features and the wolf spawns. In my latest play, I spawned at 2 AM in the middle of a huge blizzard, and only survived because I remembered the slope of ground away from the track when it past near the lake office.

This, BTW, is actually a very, very useful skill to have in the real world. Learning how to read a variety of reference points and landmarks will serve you better than a lot of maps in the wilderness. And never trust the signage people stick up on trees.

Couldn't agree more! I remember being a member of the YMCA both as a youth and again as a teenager in more of a leadership role, and that was always one of the first things we taught people who were new on their first hikes or overnights out into the mountains, how to monitor and spot distinctive land marks/trail heads/trees etc, and how these points of interest could help lead you back out of a situation you get yourself into.

[FoneBoneJay]

I know its a bit extreme but IMO, Hinterland should issue take-down notices to sources of the in-game maps people have created.

Or you can just be smart and not completely ruin the immersive experience for yourself, by nOt looking at them ever.

One of the most fun parts of the game is exploration, and having a map of everything you didn't create yourself is really ruining your own experience but hey, its your experience.

It would be nice if there was an in-game map that only filled in areas you've visited and did nOt show items and bodies, only landscape and buildings. That would save the pen and paper and maybe help people to explore things on their own.

People are so funny... you have to lead them around with a prize to get them to do anything, most of the time. They don't see the value in learning on their own. Maybe that is just a result of horrible school systems but that's another argument.

An American in favor of censorship? What is wrong with you?

[Lux]

Nice statement to blindly bandy about.

When I started playing games, there was no internet. There were no Let's Play/tutorial videos. Cheat guides, maps, walkthroughs posted.

Information is power as we all know. The issue is when you gain power having put nothing in to it other than a few search terms. Yeah its a game similar to all other games and not having to think for yourself and having everything at your fingertips if you "want to know" is by all measures making the population that has access to these tools dumber as a whole.

I'm sure you played the memory game as a kid? So what are the phone numbers of all of your friends? Do you have to look them up because their on auto-dial in your phone?

People have to think for themselves less and less these days because of all of the tools at their disposal and they're becoming a crutch to their existence. If something like the event in TLD occurred in real life, I'd shudder to think of the consequences on modern civilization. I think it would be amazing, personally. The majority of people would perish unable to think for themselves.

Censorship IS a bad thing in a general sense where it pertains to people being able to say what they want. Its a delicate thing though when actual information is involved and not just opinion being spouted.

In any case it was just a suggestion like anyone elses. Hinterland owns the IP and can do what they want with it. Its not up to you or me, and like I said, "I know its a bit extreme". It was just a thought experiment.

[elloco999]

When is censorship ever necessary? I'm sure the Chinese government thinks it's necessary to keep the information from the people too...

I think trying to stop people form posting maps on line isn't a very good idea. Not only is it impossible to do since every time a map actually gets taken down it will simply be posted again, it will also not be received very favorable by many people. Why aggravate a large part of you fan base?

And if you start taking down the maps because they provide information, then we also need to close down this forum, stop everyone from uploading video's to youtube and figure out a way to keep people from posting information on the steam forums. And of course, after that you will still need to address all the other sites that will pop-up specifically to discuss TLD and every gamers forum where people will go to if they can't talk freely here. That is, if there are still people who bother with the game by then. It sure as heck won't be good publicity for Hinterland...

But the solution is actually very simple. Don't care about what other people do, let them use maps, guides and whatever if they want to. If you don't want to do this because this will ruin your experience, than don't do it. As long as no one is forcing you to use the maps, what's the harm in other people using them?

[pulkmees]

I couldn´t even find the Trapper´s Homestead on my first 4 runs, had to use an online map.That whole part of the area was extremely hard to navigate to, I thought I couldn´t even get up some of those hills there.

I´m usually a big supporter of exploring, but if I can´t find something others have found in like 2 runs, I use a freakin map.Not going to waste time doing the same thing over again for 11 times just to find a place.

Now I only use the map to get to those bunker locations, which are way too specific to go search out of idk boredom or curiostity.

[EternityTide]

I don't bother with maps anymore, I've pretty much memorised my way around both CH and ML. I started to draw maps in the beginning, but as I played it, I just used memory to find places rather than referring to a map.

[Mafti]

lost my map for some reason. but I manage pretty much with a map nowadays.

although the mentioning of bunkers makes me wonder I should start making it again

[coryduran]

Nice statement to blindly bandy about.

When I started playing games, there was no internet. There were no Let's Play/tutorial videos. Cheat guides, maps, walkthroughs posted.

Information is power as we all know. The issue is when you gain power having put nothing in to it other than a few search terms. Yeah its a game similar to all other games and not having to think for yourself and having everything at your fingertips if you "want to know" is by all measures making the population that has access to these tools dumber as a whole.

I'm sure you played the memory game as a kid? So what are the phone numbers of all of your friends? Do you have to look them up because their on auto-dial in your phone?

People have to think for themselves less and less these days because of all of the tools at their disposal and they're becoming a crutch to their existence. If something like the event in TLD occurred in real life, I'd shudder to think of the consequences on modern civilization. I think it would be amazing, personally. The majority of people would perish unable to think for themselves.

Censorship IS a bad thing in a general sense where it pertains to people being able to say what they want. Its a delicate thing though when actual information is involved and not just opinion being spouted.

In any case it was just a suggestion like anyone elses. Hinterland owns the IP and can do what they want with it. Its not up to you or me, and like I said, "I know its a bit extreme". It was just a thought experiment.

I'm not trying to bash your statement, I just disagree lol. Obviously this is alpha, we are all suppose to share our opinions of the game, but that doesn't mean I just need to agree with yours, or vice versa. We are all allowed to think and feel differently .

That being said, I have to disagree with a few of your points lol..

I don't think people right now in our modern technology world, would do much worse than the humans of the 1970s even without the awful internet ruining their ability to think. The fact that people would die in a survival experience isn't because the internet, it's because humans as a whole have become lazy/out of touch with our ancient selves because we live lives of relative comfort, and have so for decades, if not centuries depending on how you define it.

The average humans relatively shoddy memory compared to our ancestors probably has a lot more to do with the invention of pen and paper rather than the invention of computers/internet, if you look at things from an evolutionary/forensic psychology perspective at least.

And even as a kid before I ever had a cell phone, or the internet, I still never knew many numbers other than my own house number, again I had a piece of paper with lots of numbers on it though .

All of technology basically exists to make our lives easier/more enjoyable. Most people agree that most people in the situation of our protagonists would start mapping out their areas. I don't think many would argue against that. Just like we wouldn't argue that most people would want to learn how to deal with wolves etc. I personally feel like if you're going to state that online maps shouldn't be allowed, none of these resources should exist. Any thread about dealing with wolves or explaining wolf mechanics should be deleted, the thread about bunker locations should be deleted. Threads about thawing out dead animals should be deleted. It doesn't make sense to me to celebrate some online sources of help for in game while saying that others shouldn't be allowed. If your point is that they should all be gone, well there you go but I think a lot of people would disagree.

Of course all just opinions.

[Lux]

Yep, purely conjecture. Good points you make.

[FoneBoneJay]

Censorship is all about you making the decisions for me. About the control. I'm not interested in you making decisions for me, you don't censor freedom of expression if for and for reference you can have a look at 1933-1945

[EternityTide]

The thing is, if you want to map it yourself, go ahead. If you don't want to and you want to access a ready made map, that's your choice. but that choice only effects you, so it doesn't really take away from the game to have maps available online, unless YOU yourself choose to use the maps.

It's user's choice, no one needs to spend time and money moderating steam forums and posts on the internet for content which might contain spoilers, it's just a waste of resources.

[coryduran]

All I know, is I am gonna be the first person to map the new region. It might just be a big abstract shape with some trees drawn into it, but I'll be first!

[Cosmoline]

Take downs for the maps? That's bizarre. For one thing, the on-line maps are a long way from accurate. For another, they help give a sense of the development of the game layout and make an interesting comparison with your own memory. Some folks like to play solely for the challenge of the game. I too grew up playing games long before the web, but I also had my fun with them and I'm ready for something else. So I do enjoy seeing if I missed something and then going over and taking a look. It's not "cheating" because TLD is in no sense a "game." The game hasn't even been created yet. We're simply goofing in a kind of existential sandbox at this point.

[elloco999]

All I know, is I am gonna be the first person to map the new region. It might just be a big abstract shape with some trees drawn into it, but I'll be first!

I'm very sorry Cory, but I beat you to it.

[spoil]

This is a map of the new region at night [/spoil]

[coryduran]

All I know, is I am gonna be the first person to map the new region. It might just be a big abstract shape with some trees drawn into it, but I'll be first!

I'm very sorry Cory, but I beat you to it.

[spoil]

This is a map of the new region at night [/spoil]

LMAO I totally like hesitantly clicked show spoiler, that's great.

[ChillPlayer]

As Les Stroud never tires to say, the nr 1 rule in any survival situation is: use what ever is necessary to survive I used the maps alot, especially for bunker hunting until I learned the regions in and out. They were there and I am simply no fan of artificially making things more difficult than they have to be. The idea of sharing is that someone makes an effort others don't have to repeat. If you didn't use the maps, good for you. But don't take it away from the ones who want to use them.

I also don't think that I missed out on a huge amount of fun. It was fun enough to learn the game and how to survive without having to map the terrain first. Now that I know the game mechanics and a new map is on the verge to be released I am looking very forward to discover everything by myself, because my focus will be on discovery and it won't be broken by concerns for finding a shelter, getting food and water, cloths and stuff. And if rumors are true, there will be 12 more maps to discover all by myself, missing out on two isn't a biggy in my book.

I can also offer an excuse for using the maps: there are no maps ingame although it is quite strange to believe that no cabin or car in a tourist region has any form of map, not even in the camp office. So my checking online for a map simply translates to finding one in a glove box of a car

[Lux]

They were there and I am simply no fan of artificially making things more difficult than they have to be.

Haha. Actually you wouldn't have "artificially made things more difficult". What you actually did was, "artificially made things more easy". Its interesting the distinction you make though.

...although it is quite strange to believe that no cabin or car in a tourist region has any form of map, not even in the camp office. So my checking online for a map simply translates to finding one in a glove box of a car

I have to agree with this statement though. Would be cool too if there was the auto-map kind of feature that filled in as you explored and then finding a map in a glove compartment/locked trunk or the like, would auto-fill in a chunk of unknown area. That would be nice and rewarding for finding such an item.

[ChillPlayer]

+1 to that

[autonomous]

On the topic of the original question. I played for about 3 hours and died 10 times before I went and looked up other peoples maps. they were awful so I decided to make my own map. So I made a TOPO map of mystery lake. and a few weeks latter when coastal road released I made a TOPO map of it too. I've probably spent more time making maps for the game then I have spent playing it.

On to the issue of censorship. Censorship is wrong. If you support censorship today you might find it's you who is being censored tomorrow. Here is a safe for work page from a 1980's penthouse magazine

On to the copyright law issue of whether or not Hinterland could have my maps or anyone else taken down. When you make a piece of art it is protected under copyright. You do not have to do anything or include a copyright notice. It is your for your entire life and then when you die your next of kin inherits it for 70 years after which it enters public domain. In order to have a case for copyright infringement a company or person has to prove that you published their work or something derivative of their work without their permission. Now if you create something that is derivative for personal use or pure artistic value with no intent to sell or profit from the original work creator has no legal grounds to stop you. this is why you can play covers of songs when you are practicing an instrument songs with out mailing a check to the author but if you play at a venue where you or the venue is profiting the author of the song has legal grounds go after you.

Now in the case of the long dark maps when you put a pencil to a paper and draw a map of the long dark it is not derivative because you did not use the someone else work. If you took the map file and ran it through a rendering program then hinterland would have legal grounds to go after you for representing there work as your own or distributing there work with out permission. At the end of the day hinterland does not own the copyrights to anything it's users have drawn and would have to prove otherwise or prove financial loss to have legal grounds to go after people who draw maps.