Ideas After a 5,394 Hour Run

[Cosmoline]

Just finished a really epic run on Voyageur mode. I've made a few suggestions earlier, but at this point I think I'm in a better position to assess them in light of the gameplay.

--TLD as it stands is *several* games. Scavenging is the first game. You start with nothing at a random spot in the wilderness and have to dart through forests and from one structure to the next. It's a stressful and exciting game, with variable rewards. Very much a rougelike survival spree. And I think this is the game that's been getting people so excited. The second game, which hits about 10 to 20 days in for most, is the encampment game. The achievement board shows most don't make it this far. This is when you've gotten basic supplies together, have your gear in shape and have figured out how to survive off scraps. This is when you're learning how to mend and start fires and use your environment. In this phase you loot some more and decide where you're going to create your base of operations. The next game is homesteading. By this time, usually by 50, you are kitted out with the custom gear and you've learned how to deal with the wolves. You learn the lay of your encampment really well, and even start to herd deer to wolves and take double kills. You conserve ammo and resources obsessively by this stage. This is where you also start setting rabbit snares probably, and stockpile food, lumber and other resources. The boredom of this stage is balanced by looting/exploring runs where you stock up, head out and loot what's left on the two maps. The final stage is probably best called the long grind. By 100 you've likely looted every structure and found the bunker. So you settle in to rabbit farming, fishing, double kills, and ultimately end up running out of bullets and tackling wolves off the deer to get the meat. It's a brutal stage full of moments of near starvation. Cloth becomes incredibly precious, and scrap metal, as well as basic first aid supplies. sewing kits and tools. By day 200 things get really tedious and the game, while still beautiful, starts to get to be more trouble than fun. But if you have a magnifying glass or firestarter, it can be prolonged for months. I'm sure I could have stretched my play out, but rather than do it I decided to go out in a blaze of glory and die chasing a mortally wounded wolf through the woods buck naked. My guy died with a full stomach and fully supplied cabin--he had earned it.

The upshot is the game starts out A+ and ends on a C. So the question is, what to do about this. I've suggested that the days should start getting darker and colder as the months go on--to truly reflect northern life and make the stages past day 50 get harder and harder. This would rationalize the leaderboards a bit I think.

Making the wildlife more responsive to the player would also be good. Once you learn the wolves' AI and patterns in voyageur you can play them like a fiddle. I started to look forward to seeing them since it meant dinner. Making alpha wolves with grey coats to be extra menacing, introducing woken bears, or something like that would help. But above all, the deer and wolves should cotton to what the player is up to JUST as they do in real life. Wildlife is smart, and won't come back to kill sites. So if you kill a wolf, wolves will probably leave that area for a week. That's great in the early game, but sucks in the later game. So it balances out. The deer should also shy away from areas where they are hunted.

I was earlier saying we should have a spear or bayonet. But now I don't think so. The ability to kill an unlimited number of deer would stretch the sandbox game to infinity and change its nature. Plus once you learn how to fight the knife is really effective at least in standard difficulty.

There's also the temptation to make this into another minecraft game where you get more and more stuff to make. I encourage the devs to keep resisting this. While it would be nice to see some BUCKSKIN PANTS craftable (to avoid being half naked for the last hundred days), the later phases shouldn't be about building new structures or wolf barriers and such. It should be made more interesting by improving the wildlife AI and making tweaks to daylight and climate to simulate winter's arrival. The goal IMHO should be to force the player out of his homestead and make him scout further for game. JUST AS HE WOULD HAVE TO IN REAL LIFE!

As far as bugs, the wolf jacket should be repaired with wolf hides and shouldn't spawn cloth when broken down. I'm assuming that will be fixed. Also the daylight keeps coming in when you're at the crafting table and work late. Minor point. The deer sometimes vanish into snowbanks after being killed, but that's not unrealistic. And overall its' remarkably bug free for alpha. Art, sound and voice work, though still being worked on, are already stupendous and really truly remind me of my home up here in Alaska. Saw a sunset last night that was right out of TLD.

Great game! Keep up the good work. I look forward to seeing what's next.

[TastyWheat]

That's a really long run. I'll be excited when I can make it past a week (but I've only played through about 3 times). Once I master "wolf management" I can see this game getting relatively easy and repetitive. I agree that the longer you last the more difficult it should become to stay alive, but it's probably better tied to the level of your skills vs how long you've survived.

[The_Hawk35]

Yeah the only things I'd like to see added are ways to prevent the inevitable death that WILL happen eventually.

- Craftable shirt and pants (buckskins)

- a sharpened stick to help you drive wolves off deer. Not a sure thing by any stretch

- Another way to start fires - bow drill for example.

- A way to preserve meat, either freeing it or smoking it.

None of these would make the game easier, it would remove the inevitable end of the game.

[Cosmoline]

But I'm not so sure it should be survivable. I kind of like the idea of a game that's almost certain doom. If done properly, the longer you play the harder it should get, with no easy way of keeping the food supplies coming. If the weather gets colder, worse and the sky darker as it does in real life, then the mid game gets tougher and the end game becomes even more challenging rather than a grind.

[ChillPlayer]

If done properly, the longer you play the harder it should get, with no easy way of keeping the food supplies coming. If the weather gets colder, worse and the sky darker as it does in real life, then the mid game gets tougher and the end game becomes even more challenging rather than a grind.

Any form of grinding would be immediatelly removed if there would be no rifle (at least in Stalker), LB would need to be reset then though

[Cosmoline]

I think it is possible to get to 300 or beyond without starving if you have a way of making fire. My fellow never starved, I just got bored with the game after a point. And it takes a long time in game and a lot of waiting on the wolves.

Any form of grinding would be immediatelly removed if there would be no rifle (at least in Stalker), LB would need to be reset then though

I think the rifle is about right as is. It gives you a boost but the limited cartridges make you conserve it. And you can still grind without it. Heck I went for several stretches of 30 days or more without capping off a round. You use snares on the rabbit grounds and scavenge from the wolves. One of the techniques I used was to charge at the wolf right after he killed a deer. If he attacked me, it was a double. If not, it was a deer.

[ChillPlayer]

Those techniques you mentioned are what I apply after I run out of ammo. That's when I scare wolves away with my knife until I'm out of cloth and bandages and then I'd stick to rabbits and fish, although I never reached that point. But wouldn't you say that those 30 days without firing a shot were much more thrilling than the other days hunting with a rifle, especially if it was because you were out of ammo? I remember the first time I ran up to a wolf/deer with only a knife equipped, I was yelling and screaming in my head (and probably out loud) at this wolf and I never forget the relief when he just ran away from me lol. It's those situations this game can put you in that I love the most about it and that's why I believe that the rifle might seem to be a good thing at first but once you know the game, it really postpones the fun by a good while.

And no, I'm not masochistic enough to not pick up the rifle if the game hands it to me

[Cosmoline]

I think the rifle has its own charms. It's reasonable to expect some firearms in rural Canada. And games that simply ignore that will tend to be as unrealistic as the ones where there are tricked out AR's and unlimited ammo everywhere. The game rifle is so inaccurate that you have to be within a dozen yards to hit anything with it, which limits it utility. And it's no sure one shot for a wolf. The process of learning to live without it is part of the game I think.

[ChillPlayer]

That's true, it actually belongs to the setting of wild Canada and also get's players the ability to learn to survive. All I say regarding the rifle is in regards of the current state of the game. When the devs introduce more to do than eat/sleep once you stocked up on food I most likely won't have any issues with it. But for now every game is the same until day 100 or so and the rifle plays a big role in this.

[elloco999]

I still haven't gotten around to trying stalker yet (as my voyageur game hasn't ended yet), but on my current voyageur run I hadn't used the rifle at all until day 150 or so. That's when I decided to bag me some wolves to make the wolf coat. I shot 5 wolves in total (4 to make the coat and another 1 to repair it, only to find out you need leather for repairs...). I haven't fired the rifle since and I've been going a long time now.

[ChillPlayer]

Yes in voyageur the rifle is much less important than in stalker because there are fewer wolves. There are many places in stalker where 3-4 wolves roam the area. Not only makes this accessing building alot harder, you also always have to watch out for other wolves near by when you're harvesting. Without the "peng" of the rifle your options are very limited.

[TLDFAN]

I still haven't gotten around to trying stalker yet (as my voyageur game hasn't ended yet), but on my current voyageur run I hadn't used the rifle at all until day 150 or so. That's when I decided to bag me some wolves to make the wolf coat. I shot 5 wolves in total (4 to make the coat and another 1 to repair it, only to find out you need leather for repairs...). I haven't fired the rifle since and I've been going a long time now.

Playing in Stalker and playing in another mode is like being in a whole other dimension. Stalker is just stupid brutal.

[Cosmoline]

There are spawns of Voyageur that have a lot of wolves, but they behave differently. In my current run the coastal ocean has had up to eight wolves roaming it, with one poor deer. But I was able to run between them pretty easily. They don't alert until you're right next to them, and often give a warning bark. In stalker they all seem to be hungry for manflesh and they obsesses over you much longer. It makes everything more difficult. Stalker mode isn't my favorite because it just seems to be unrealistically or absurdly brutal. To my mind it takes away from the beauty and isolated feel of the game to have so much attention on staying alive from moment to moment. It really is a different game. And I noted earlier that Pilgrim mode is also a different game--in some ways the most interesting of the three modes. The quiet isolation starts to get to you after awhile, and you start wishing the wolves would be aggressive so you'd have something to interact with. I found myself getting really jumpy in the silence, and it will hopefully give ruse to a psychological horror game mod in the future.

[ChillPlayer]

Well this game is specifically made to test how long you can survive. I did some Voyageur runs when I was new to TLD but once I made my first 50 days in Stalker I never looked back. It's just no challenge, I don't feel like I have to actually accomplish something to survive in Voyageur, where as in Stalker I need to be cautious and patient and do some thinking to get my food and supplies. I like that, get's my heart pumping now and then.

It's not absurdly brutal, it just teaches you the same lesson Dark Souls teached many players very succesfull: you are no god, you are not invincible. Wolves will kill you if you just rush in screaming Geronimo, you have to scout the area, learn their moving pattern, account for their "radar" and always be prepared for one more wolf to be there than you actually can see.

Pilgrim on the other hand has it's appeal, after 148 days in stalker I welcomed the calm setting and spent 50 days to get silent hunter and pacifist in Pilgrim. What I especially love is that you see most of the possible spawning points for loot, I discovered several spots I never bothered to check for in Stalker. I also have an idea for a video in mind that I want to make once I've finished my current stalker run. There's something special only in Pilgrim (I think ) and I like to exploit that. I'm not sure it will work though, we'll see.

[Rongeur]

There are spawns of Voyageur that have a lot of wolves, but they behave differently. In my current run the coastal ocean has had up to eight wolves roaming it, with one poor deer. But I was able to run between them pretty easily. They don't alert until you're right next to them, and often give a warning bark. In stalker they all seem to be hungry for manflesh and they obsesses over you much longer. It makes everything more difficult. Stalker mode isn't my favorite because it just seems to be unrealistically or absurdly brutal. To my mind it takes away from the beauty and isolated feel of the game to have so much attention on staying alive from moment to moment. It really is a different game. And I noted earlier that Pilgrim mode is also a different game--in some ways the most interesting of the three modes. The quiet isolation starts to get to you after awhile, and you start wishing the wolves would be aggressive so you'd have something to interact with. I found myself getting really jumpy in the silence, and it will hopefully give ruse to a psychological horror game mod in the future.

I've been playing with a few ideas for horror-based mods, although obviously that's all a long way off. I'm thinking that, since zombie hordes are so played out, it might be fun to focus on one lone, terrifying monster instead, and have it stalk you across the landscape, forcing you to keep moving. Maybe something drawing from the region's native american folk tales? There's a whole archetype of ice-affiliated giant cannibals from northern folklore that's just ripe for the picking imo :9

[Cosmoline]

I like that idea! Something like a windigoo, or maybe more Lovecraftian. When portents of it begin, such as weird colors in the sky or strange howls, you'd have to bugger off that map entirely. It wouldn't be enough to hide in a house. Animals could turn aggressive as a response to the Fortean events. And if you wait too long, reality on that map starts to bend. Could be seriously fun.

As far as Stalker mode, I appreciate the reasons folks like it. But to me it's too much of a game in that mode. Just darting from point to point, learning the guards/wolves timetables. I've done that so much over the years, from the arcades to early 3D to actual STALKER. In a way I'm kind of tired of it. The project as a whole has the potential to be a great deal more than that. In some respects it already is. In vanilla Pilgrim mode, you start wondering if it's any kind of "game" in any sense of that word. It turns into a strange existential exercise where you have to decide how long you want to keep struggling, and for what goal.

[chicks]

I think we need a way to throw ice or rocks at wolf to scare them/angry them away from the deer. It makes some sense and it can help when you're out of ammo.

[tsotha]

I would like to see a mechanism to improve the late game, but for me it's more important that it be fun than that my guy dies. The problem, as it stands is the routine, not the length of the game. I don't really like the "gradually colder" idea, since the counter for that is to build up an enormous larder and then hole up for the last part of the game, which is the opposite of the direction I want.

[Cosmoline]

That's a good point. But the fact is winter does get colder, as my hands noticed on the bike rides the past few days! And if the balance is right, it could be survivable. Maybe it's something to do for the actual game game, not the sandbox.

[elloco999]

Yeah, winter does get colder and after that it gets warmer. And then you get spring, summer etc... So if you start in the winter and manage to survive for 90 days, you should be in spring already and the game suddenly gets a lot easier (not so cold, more stuff).

[Cosmoline]

Unless this is the start of a new ice age or something.