New Game Start Times

[ChillPlayer]

elloco I see your point, believe me I do, I just don't agree with it or only to some extend. We don't have to agree on everything, that's how good families work

About the coding: remember that the actual coding is the least time consuming process in introducing a new feature. First meetings have to be held, people have to decide how to implement it, who will be assigned the task, project ressources have to assigned. Then someone has to write the code and then it has to be tested. I believe that this meetings and ressources could be used in a better way.

Just above your post are posts from other users than me who repeated to some extend what I said before in other words. It's not wanted by all players, why should the ones who play the game the most get punished by taking away something they like? Look, it just makes more fun when I can tell my friends: "uh yesterday I began a new run, that f#cking game throw me in a blizzard in the middle of the night, I had to find my way from clear cut to the office, suddenly a wolf began to hunt me, darn was I happy when I arrived", then "oh yes, sunny calm weather, I was so lucky there was even a rifle with ammo just 5 feet away from me"... I probably couldn't finish the sentence before they lose interest.

So this are basically the two positions I see in the arguments so far: make it more accessible for new players or leave it as is, maybe even increase the difficulty. The thing is, we actually found already some middleground and I don't see why we can all agree on that, I certainly can: Make Pilgrim the tutorial mode where you always start at 10am in sunny weather, point it out in the description that this is the mode for new players et voila, all are satisfied.

But if because of this thread the devs will limit the spawn to day time in Stalker, my friend we will have a problem then :twisted:

[elloco999]

And no matter who we are, the game doesn't give you any explanation as to why you are suddenly standing in the middle of these snow covered Canadian mountains, or how we got there.

Um... did you read the text on the screen before the game starts? Your plane went down in a geomagnetic event?

Are you sURe the "game doesn't give you any explanation"?

At least in the story mode, there will be a reason as to why you start where and when you start and how you got there. In the sandbox, you are just there. No reason whatsoever.

Err um?

You're right, it does say so in the start screen. But if I just crashed my plane, where the heck is it? I should at least see some smoke in the distance. Since there is no crash site anywhere, I guess I didn't just crash. So we're still missing the explanation on how I got to where I am at the start of the game.

Why would the devs not do something for the much more than half a dozen players that would like to not start in the middle of the night if it's a very simple thing to do?

Right now there should be a little piece of code that determines at what time of day you start. It's already limited to 0 - 23 hours and 0 - 59 minutes. So change 0 - 23 hours to 6 - 20 hours and voila. A bunch of players happy by making a change that takes 5 minutes.

A bad change at that. Can you control when a geomagnetic event happens? Do you decide? I don't believe you do or can. You are given what you're given and you have to make the best of it.

The BEST moments in the game are when you are not in control. When you can't see in front of you. When you don't know where you are. When don't have what you need. If you don't believe that, we're not playing the same game.

Knowing where everything is on the map ruins the game and the spirit of the game completely. It should be something you learn on your own over time, tribulation, and trial. Not by reading a post on the internet where someone posted a map with item spawns. Wow, wouldn't it be nice if people didn't post such things. One can dream.

I guess we disagree on if it's a good or a bad change...

Can I control when a geomagnetic event happens? No. Can I control the time of day I'd be up in a plane flying over mountainous terrain? Yes I can. So if I were to crash due to a geomagnetic event, it would be in daylight, as I would not be flying in the dark. Like I said in my first post in this thread.

You could also say that you can't control where you crash when you crash. The event might have happened just when you were over the open ocean. Or when flying over a deep ravine. So should the game also start you sometimes with the message that you died because you crashed into the ocean or against a mountain? Luck of the draw, no hand holding etc...

Except perhaps for Pilgrim mode, restricting the random start time or weather conditions would defeat some of the interesting replay aspects of the game. Just as you're excited when you start off in a gorgeous beautiful day right near your favorite spawn point vs. dark nasty weather and realizing you've got to jump in full speed and have your work cut out for you right from the opening spawn.

Yes, new player may not like the dark because they don't know the area yet - but again, it's luck of the draw (and no hand holding). Some players would say make it great conditions for 'x' number of rounds so they get to know the game - but that 'x' figure would be different for each player - and again, it defeats the randomness aspect for replays. You either jump in enjoying this type of game challenge, or you possibly turn to something else more along the lines of what you want... but just because a new player starts in the dark, doesn't mean they're doomed from the start...

ESC >> QUIT >> Start a new Sandbox [i.e. consider it a reroll when first learning the game].

Again, I never intended this option for everyone. I know some people do like spawning in any kind of weather at any time of the day etc (and I'm one of them btw) so I took that into account in my first post on this subject.

But I completely forgot. No hand holding. But than maybe we should change the name of "Unsafe water", cause that's also hand holding... And I could give some more examples, but you get my point... A lot of things that are in the game now were not in earlier versions. Not because they were considered hand holding, but because this game is still in development and those things simply weren't developed yet.

If the devs decided to add additional options into the game later for separate selections of game options, then fine - but remember that a lot will depend on cost [time and programming budget] vs. overall value returned.

True, but the same can be said about any feedback given in this sub forum or any wish on the wish list. That's no reason not to give the feedback or to name the wishes.

It sometimes takes a dozen or so games [and deaths] to get a good feel for how the game works - and that's part of the learning curve. Those who have played for more than an hour or two, and have experienced the thrill of quickly recognizing where you've spawned even in the middle of the night know that it can be a very unusual and rewarding feeling in gaming.

Right on. And that learning curve is steep enough that it's not necessary to start a new player next to a couple of wolves and have him killed right away. If you start in the pitch black as a new player who doesn't know anything about playing TLD yet, that's not certain doom. But you're chances are so slim that the only thing you'll probably take away from that experience is that it is not good to start in the dark...

Edit: Another 2 new posts while I was typing this post. I just can't keep up. It's already 00.37 hours over here, so I'm going to call it a night.

[lauren]

Whoa, over 200 views just for this thread alone! This topic turned out as a healthy debate which is great!

I agree with you 100%. Valuable knowledge comes out the simplest of statements.

Whatever TLD team decides...this thread has a lot of strong opinions.

[elloco999]

elloco I see your point, believe me I do, I just don't agree with it or only to some extend. We don't have to agree on everything, that's how good families work

About the coding: remember that the actual coding is the least time consuming process in introducing a new feature. First meetings have to be held, people have to decide how to implement it, who will be assigned the task, project ressources have to assigned. Then someone has to write the code and then it has to be tested. I believe that this meetings and ressources could be used in a better way.

Just above your post are posts from other users than me who repeated to some extend what I said before in other words. It's not wanted by all players, why should the ones who play the game the most get punished by taking away something they like? Look, it just makes more fun when I can tell my friends: "uh yesterday I began a new run, that f#cking game throw me in a blizzard in the middle of the night, I had to find my way from clear cut to the office, suddenly a wolf began to hunt me, darn was I happy when I arrived", then "oh yes, sunny calm weather, I was so lucky there was even a rifle with ammo just 5 feet away from me"... I probably couldn't finish the sentence before they lose interest.

So this are basically the two positions I see in the arguments so far: make it more accessible for new players or leave it as is, maybe even increase the difficulty. The thing is, we actually found already some middleground and I don't see why we can all agree on that, I certainly can: Make Pilgrim the tutorial mode where you always start at 10am in sunny weather, point it out in the description that this is the mode for new players et voila, all are satisfied.

But if because of this thread the devs will limit the spawn to day time in Stalker, my friend we will have a problem then :twisted:

Good, we see each others points.

As a developer I'm well aware that adding even the simplest feature is a team effort that goes well beyond the scope of just adding a line of code. But that's true for every feature that gets suggested and it's certainly not going to stop me from giving feedback or giving suggestions on how things could possibly be done.

When have I ever said the ones playing the game the most should be punished by taking away something they like? It's possible to make the game more accessible to new player while still keeping things hard or even making things harder for experienced players.

On the other hand, experienced players don't mind starting in the dark, and may even like it. This could be linked to the difficulty setting. Maybe only let people start in the dark on stalker?

...I'm not saying they should change the things an experienced player may like just so the newcomers have it easier. I actually made that point in my first post in this thread. And that's not necessary either. Introducing the different difficulty modes was the first step to make the game accessible to a more varied public. This could be a continuation of the road taken.

I sure as heck don't want to have a problem with you

All joking aside, I don't want to see TLD loose a feature many people like. But I'm sure the devs don't want this either and if they decide to limit spawns to daylight I'm sure they will figure out a way to do so without removing the spawning in the dark for those who still want it.

[Lux]

It could be that you crashed during the day and you've just been unconscious and finally awoke during the night.

I agree there needs to be a wrecked Cessna or something to that effect. Crashed up in the trees unreachable, wing torn off on the ground, etc. That would also be nice because as in real life, it would give you a point of reference for navigation which you would actually have. Even a parachute on the ground (cordage and nylon shelter?) and a smoke plume in the distance but like you said:

"but because this game is still in development and those things simply weren't developed yet."

So I'm not really bothered by it. Its Alpha, and like Bill said, if you don't like your spawn time, esc and restart.

[ChillPlayer]

elloco I think we finally found each other, took us only 4 pages in this thread

As I said, I've no issue with adjusting the start time in Pilgrim and new players should be urged to begin in this mode. I just don't see the need for it in Voyageur or Stalker, anyone demanding a daylight spawn time in this two modes is not made for this game in my opinion because they are not willing to deal with what the game throws at them. But it should be stated in the difficulty description that in Pilgrim you'll be spawned in good conditions, in the other two it's completely random so no one will be surprised when they get spawned the first time at night.

[Mafti]

Imho, I think they should address that at least in the future, especially when they officially going to release it.

Even if you know you are going to play a hardcore survival game, the game should *not* start with a black screen

Chances are. most people think, oi, the game is bugged.

From a user-experience way, no matter what, the first 2 seconds will decide the game fate heavily.

If a inexperienced user starts with a black screen, no clue what to do, what the controls are, where he/she needs to go, he/she will shelve the game and never play it again.

In short, I find the feedback very useful

(to avalanche it to a 4 page thread is another thing )

[elloco999]

elloco I think we finally found each other, took us only 4 pages in this thread

(to avalanche it to a 4 page thread is another thing )

:lol: I agree

As I said, I've no issue with adjusting the start time in Pilgrim and new players should be urged to begin in this mode. I just don't see the need for it in Voyageur or Stalker, anyone demanding a daylight spawn time in this two modes is not made for this game in my opinion because they are not willing to deal with what the game throws at them. But it should be stated in the difficulty description that in Pilgrim you'll be spawned in good conditions, in the other two it's completely random so no one will be surprised when they get spawned the first time at night.

I think this could work just fine. Maybe even set the difficulty to Pilgrim by default and give the user a warning the first time they chose a higher difficulty level. Or if an actual warning is too strong, a friendly suggestion they try Pilgrim first.

The fact that this turned into a 4 page discussion only shows how passionate people are about TLD

[lauren]

From a user-experience way, no matter what, the first 2 seconds will decide the game fate heavily.

If a inexperienced user starts with a black screen, no clue what to do, what the controls are, where he/she needs to go, he/she will shelve the game and never play it again.

That's basically what I was aiming at in terms of the new user.

As a Quality Analyst on a triple A title, and a video game lover I know the lifeline of a game company is new users. If the first drop into a game experience isn't enjoyable (say...a black screen :lol:) I'm not going to play it much past that, and it's less likely that I would suggest it to my friends/family/coworkers - or buy any DLC, perks, map packs, etc. - all those little bits and pieces that really make the companies enter the black.

And to all the people suggesting that new users should enter this game knowing how to play...you are dead wrong. Video games must educate their users on how to play by playing, or must be intuitive enough for them to simply pick up a controller as it is a well known industry fact that large portions of new users do not read manuals, enter tutorials, or want to spend any time learning how to play at a basic level.

I believe it's something like 75% of people play the game once then never come back to it...how should TLD earn any money if they lose even 2% of their players to starting in a pitch black blizzard. Remember Hinterland is a new studio, they don't have street cred...this is their first game; will this ruin them...definitely not, will it turn away a percentage of people, maybe...but why take the chance? On the lower difficulties (pilgrim, and voyageur) just start them with even an hour of light left.

[Lux]

"...you are dead wrong." Well said.

[ChillPlayer]

Video games must educate their users on how to play by playing

yeah right, that's why the Dark Soul series is such a success, because it introduces itself so well to new players :?

There are games and there are games. Hinterland's dev come from the triple A industry and specifically wanted to created something different. You are saying though they should do exactly what they escaped from, compromising their ideas to please a bigger crowd.

Having said that, I thought the discussion is settled by agreeing that it'd be okay in Pilgrim. I honestly don't see why it should be also in Voyageur but I won't get into a dispute about that because no matter what anyone things about it, it's up to the devs and I doubt they will even limit spawning to day time in Pilgrim. Personally I don't even care as long as they don't touch Stalker :twisted:

[lauren]

I've never played Dark Souls, but does it not start in the same scenario each time?

There are games and there are games.

What?

[ChillPlayer]

[offtopic]Watch this and you will understand (not my video)

[bBvideo 560,340:21cnap72]

[/bBvideo][/offtopic]

[Lux]

+1 to that, Chillplayer.

Agree whole heartedly.