stalker Mode: Predators realism

[coryduran]

I guess I just don't care that much if the wolves behave realistically or not, since the developers state explicitly that they aren't trying to create realistic behavior in the wildlife. I mean I don't think any of us would actually want to play a game where the wolves acted realistically. Oh cool, one wolf spotted me when I left my house, gathered itself up a hunting pack and stalked me to the fishing cabin where four of them jumped me. People say wolves are insta-death now.

Idk, I actually think that the behaviour you described here would be a great addition to the game. Having really, really subtle indications that you are being stalked, and then being able to act on those indications to try and outmaneuver the wolves and make it to safety, or throw them off your tracks (with some kind of footprint and smell/wind mechanic I guess) seems like it would definitely add to the tension and enjoyment of the game. Having a guaranteed death by wolf-pack hanging over your head would totally add to the intruige and excitement. As long as there's a sufficient element of skill, and not just chance, involved, I think that any level of difficulty is fun.

but if you go back, and read all the complaints in this thread about how OP wolves are, how annoying the insta death from wolves is (which I still contend doesn't exist) do you think many of these people would agree that the mechanic I described would be fun for them?

I would also agree that other elements of the game (weather, character condition) do a greater job of being a challenge, a threat, and of raising the tension/atmosphere during a play through. I would agree with you that I would like for the wolves to be better than they are, I just think very few people think that means making them smarter and more dangerous, which is what it sounds like you and I would want. All of this being said though, I understand if the devs WANT the weather and all those other things to be the main threats/driving elements of the game.

I agree that the best part of the current wolves is out maneuvering them, where there are three or four scattered along the ice inbetween you and the hut you want to go to, trying to work around them and their detection areas is unnerving, especially if you allow one to start tracking you, because you have to worry about not allowing him to close the distance, while also not pulling aggro on any of the others around the ice, or any new ones who have stumbled into the area. I agree that the wolves aren't perfect as they are, they could be more challenging (I would appreciate it) and I definitely love the idea of scent detection and that becoming a mechanic of the game, but I believe anyone who is calling for the wolves to become both more realistic and more threatening/challenging is quite a rarity on these forums from what I can tell.

[FoneBoneJay]

I hate to make this comparison, but wolves currently remind me of zombies from most other post-apocalyptic survival games. They behave, and are implemented, in very similar ways--small detection radius, instant aggressiveness and pursuit, and the difficulty of encounters with them increases in direct proportion to the amount of them there are in an area. For me, this is what "unrealistic" means.

Agree completely.

[FoneBoneJay]

Being able to see 3-4 wolves just meandering around is ridiculous. As a predator a wolf will have as good or better sight on you. In which case they would either try to hide themselves from you if they consider you a predator or hide themselves in order to improve their chances of investigating you undetected in case you trigger their hunting instinct. Much like a cat will remain hidden behind a sofa when stalking prey wolves as a predator exhibit the same behavior. They do or lunch simply gets away.

The way they are implemented is to create fights as if they are almost blind crippled geriatric wolves. There should be one or two wolves on the whole map since they do maintain a territory. A wolf pack should be a feature of the game when they get to that point. Right now the Wolf AI simply does not have enough depth.

What I'd like to see if more variety in the Wolf AI so as to not make them predictable. If the devs are going with the story that wolves are affected by the geo magnetic disturbance and I fully support that story color, then they should further add to that by supporting it with more UNPREDICTABLE behavior by the wolves. They are only dangerous because they cause a cheap death if you get into the lethal range of two of them. Meanwhile all the other wolves simply hang out on a patrol route on the lake. It is silly and unrealistic disturbingly so.

[The last one]

Personally, I'm fine with the direction in which the wolf mechanic is going. "Realism" is a banner that gets waved around in games a lot, offering you a "real" experience which usually boils down to a realistic looking cutscene, a quick time event and the sound cue at the end letting you know you've survived. Hurrah!

I don't want The Long Dark to be realistic, I want it to be the punishing-yet-rewarding experience it is (with a little fine-tuning, of course). Flares are when wolves seem most "realistic" to me (and at the same time, not). Especially when I throw that thing down not quite far enough to scare the wolf and we stand there, staring at each other like the world's worst date, with White Fang growling at dinner and me wondering how to escape quicker. I'd like to be able to scare wolves off with a torch like you might do in real life (or if you're Liam Neeson, I guess), but I understand how that would take away from the game's challenge.

Now I have to carefully plan my strategy and all the while I'm stalking the snowdrifts, pay attention to the howls, the growls and especially my bowels, and if I hear barking, pick the nearest point of reference and run like tomorrow depends on it. I nearly wet my pants when the neighbour's dog starts barking, for Fluff's sake.

But the earlier point I made between brackets sums it up for me, this isn't a Liam Neeson simulator. It's a bout carefully planning your survival and trying to beat the harsh reality of the game. The wolves are realistic enough because the game has its own reality in which you must survive. And I love that.

[FoneBoneJay]

Personally, I'm fine with the direction in which the wolf mechanic is going. "Realism" is a banner that gets waved around in games a lot, offering you a "real" experience which usually boils down to a realistic looking cutscene, a quick time event and the sound cue at the end letting you know you've survived. Hurrah!

I don't want The Long Dark to be realistic, I want it to be the punishing-yet-rewarding experience it is (with a little fine-tuning, of course). Flares are when wolves seem most "realistic" to me (and at the same time, not). Especially when I throw that thing down not quite far enough to scare the wolf and we stand there, staring at each other like the world's worst date, with White Fang growling at dinner and me wondering how to escape quicker. I'd like to be able to scare wolves off with a torch like you might do in real life (or if you're Liam Neeson, I guess), but I understand how that would take away from the game's challenge.

Now I have to carefully plan my strategy and all the while I'm stalking the snowdrifts, pay attention to the howls, the growls and especially my bowels, and if I hear barking, pick the nearest point of reference and run like tomorrow depends on it. I nearly wet my pants when the neighbour's dog starts barking, for Fluff's sake.

But the earlier point I made between brackets sums it up for me, this isn't a Liam Neeson simulator. It's a bout carefully planning your survival and trying to beat the harsh reality of the game. The wolves are realistic enough because the game has its own reality in which you must survive. And I love that.

You go on and plan that survival carefully and keep on getting cheap-1shotted with the current mechanic in Beta or in the release and you tell us all how awesome that feels in your 10th dead day 30-40 run because of the wolves are real enough for you.

Nobody has mentioned so far in this thread that I've read, eliminating the wolves as they are and making them into some sorta "boss" encounter LOL, or inserting a cutscene but thanks for re-framing the debate.

You are missing the point when it comes to realism. Realism is a secondary characteristic of this type of game. Every addition of realism they bring, adds value and expands their market for the game. There is no going wrong there. When they dumb it down that contracts the market. The Long Dark is closer to "niche" product than it is to mainstream AAA title and looking at the demographics clearly this game attracts women and older than average men gamers. Knowing that, women prefer deeper emotional game play and older male games prefer knobs and switches and depth to their experience to add to replay-ability. You achieve that by adding depth and increasing realism.

I don't think anybody can argue the Wolf could be much simpler and still worth even having in the game.

[coryduran]

You go on and plan that survival carefully and keep on getting cheap-1shotted with the current mechanic in Beta or in the release and you tell us all how awesome that feels in your 10th dead day 30-40 run because of the wolves are real enough for you.

Again, who is getting one shotted by wolves?!?! I don't understand how wolves are killing you so easily. With a knife I never drop below 65 condition. Again, if you're going out below 50% and then getting killed, your own fault.

You are missing the point when it comes to realism. Realism is a secondary characteristic of this type of game. Every addition of realism they bring, adds value and expands their market for the game. There is no going wrong there. When they dumb it down that contracts the market. The Long Dark is closer to "niche" product than it is to mainstream AAA title and looking at the demographics clearly this game attracts women and older than average men gamers. Knowing that, women prefer deeper emotional game play and older male games prefer knobs and switches and depth to their experience to add to replay-ability. You achieve that by adding depth and increasing realism.

I don't think anybody can argue the Wolf could be much simpler and still worth even having in the game.

Waving the term realism around. The developers have explicitly stated that they are NOT TRYING to create realistic wolves, or even a fully realistic survival experience. Their emphasis is on challenging survivalism not realism. Even you stated that it is a secondary to this game, if that.

I could argue that. In fact I would be extremely disappointed if the wolves were simplified/made easier, which seems to be what people are really advocating. People are regularly bringing up how they want realism/that wolves are OP, but it seems to boil down to them wanting wolves to be easier, which imo would make this game too easy, and remove the threat from wolves completely basically, as they are hardly a threat now as it is.

Things I see people complaining about

"I shouldn't be able to sneak up on a wolf when I'm climbing a hill" - Translation - "I should be able to take shortcuts going to places that I can't see, without any danger or threat when reaching the crest"

"Wolves would never attack you by themselves" - Translation - "I'm getting into too many wolf fights because I'm playing recklessly"

Fortunately, it does seem like the MAJORITY of players recognize these situations as deaths they are causing for themselves with bad decision making, rather than blaming the game.

etc, etc...

If wolves are what people are seeing as the biggest threat/killer in this game, I have a hard time understanding how those people are playing, or I have to assume they are very early into playing the game (1-10 hours logged) and still haven't figured out how to navigate the terrain without attracting wolves.

[toebar]

Perhaps what we need is a bit of built-in education around surviving a wolf attack.

I'm a new player, and my first 5 or 6 wolf attacks ended my first 5 or 6 very short games. Looking back, I now realize this was because I was tempting fate by exploring while my condition was so low (because I was constantly freezing).

When I started the game, I didn't fully realize how my condition related to the wolf-fight mechanic, but now that I do, I'm able to survive much more handily if I happen to be attacked (by making sure my condition is always high--seems obvious in hindsight!!)

I suspect that people who believe the wolves are currently OP, may also not realize this-- if the game could better educate people about how the various systems work and relate to each other (in this case, Condition and Wolves), I think most people would find they have an easier time. As it stands, the game is in Alpha, so I understand why there is not really an in-game 'tutorial' of sorts yet.

edit: for example, a tip on a death screen resulting from a wolf attack -- "Keep your condition high to maximize your chances of surviving a wolf attack"

[coryduran]

Perhaps what we need is a bit of built-in education around surviving a wolf attack.

I'm a new player, and my first 5 or 6 wolf attacks ended my first 5 or 6 very short games. Looking back, I now realize this was because I was tempting fate by exploring while my condition was so low (because I was constantly freezing).

When I started the game, I didn't fully realize how my condition related to the wolf-fight mechanic, but now that I do, I'm able to survive much more handily if I happen to be attacked (by making sure my condition is always high--seems obvious in hindsight!!)

I suspect that people who believe the wolves are currently OP, may also not realize this-- if the game could better educate people about how the various systems work and relate to each other (in this case, Condition and Wolves), I think most people would find they have an easier time. As it stands, the game is in Alpha, so I understand why there is not really an in-game 'tutorial' of sorts yet.

edit: for example, a tip on a death screen resulting from a wolf attack -- "Keep your condition high to maximize your chances of surviving a wolf attack"

I totally understand your point, and I agree that it would likely help if there was more in game education, but that also would move TLD away from what they developers want in the whole "No hand holding learn by failure" system that they seem to be going for.

Like you said, you kept dying until you figured out what YOU were doing wrong, rather than blaming it on game mechanics. It should be fairly obvious to people that if you fight a wolf at low overall health, you might die. How someone could be upset about game mechanics if they are walking home weakened, freezing, low health, whatever, and die from a wolf attack is beyond me.

I don't get why people would blame a game because they choose to go out with low health and then die for it. It doesn't sound like you ever blamed the game itself, and rather used it as a learning experience. Even now, you advocate for making the learning easier, not for making the game easier. I'm much more willing to agree with that, even if as it stands now I don't actually want them to do it, nor do I feel the game needs it.

-edit- Again this is all opinion and I welcome varied opinions, even if I argue against them . For me personally though, I would rather have the experience of quitting a game for the night in frustration, only to come back tomorrow with a new mindset and a new approach to the problem, rather than having the game tell me how to do it.

[Hylander]

Again, who is getting one shotted by wolves?!?! I don't understand how wolves are killing you so easily. With a knife I never drop below 65 condition. Again, if you're going out below 50% and then getting killed, your own fault.

I've been one-shotted by a wolf before. I was at 100% health, was fully hydrated, fed, and rested. I was not encumbered. I stepped outside the door at Trapper's Homestead, and there was a wolf about 10m away, chowing down on a deer. I pulled out my rifle and took a shot, but either missed or didn't hit anything fatal.

The wolf instantly ran towards me and attacked me, and my health dropped from 100% to -30% in less than a second. I didn't even have time to get more than a single stab in, and I was dead.

Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Mind you, I've killed hundreds of wolves with no issues, but this one was impossible.

Here's the journal entry for that day:

Day 55:

Made it to day 55

1:06 AM Woke up after sleeping 5 hours

1:07 AM Ate Venison (Cooked).

1:09 AM Drank 0.50 L potable water.

1:09 AM Went to sleep.

7:10 AM Woke up after sleeping 6 hours

7:11 AM Drank 0.34 L potable water.

7:41 AM Wolf attack!

7:43 AM You died from loss of blood and shock from a wolf attack

This was in Stalker mode, of course.

[coryduran]

Sounds like an isolated incident, thus likely a bug, not an actual problem with game mechanics though. I'd report the bug.

[The last one]

Waving the term realism around. The developers have explicitly stated that they are NOT TRYING to create realistic wolves, or even a fully realistic survival experience. Their emphasis is on challenging survivalism not realism.

I like that we're debating realism in a game that, not only the developers said was not meant to be realistic - what with the geomagnetic storm messing with everything, but that deliberately uses graphics that make it look hand-drawn.

[TLDFAN]

Again, who is getting one shotted by wolves?!?! I don't understand how wolves are killing you so easily. With a knife I never drop below 65 condition. Again, if you're going out below 50% and then getting killed, your own fault.

I've been one-shotted by a wolf before. I was at 100% health, was fully hydrated, fed, and rested. I was not encumbered. I stepped outside the door at Trapper's Homestead, and there was a wolf about 10m away, chowing down on a deer. I pulled out my rifle and took a shot, but either missed or didn't hit anything fatal.

The wolf instantly ran towards me and attacked me, and my health dropped from 100% to -30% in less than a second. I didn't even have time to get more than a single stab in, and I was dead.

Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Mind you, I've killed hundreds of wolves with no issues, but this one was impossible.

Here's the journal entry for that day:

Day 55:

Made it to day 55

1:06 AM Woke up after sleeping 5 hours

1:07 AM Ate Venison (Cooked).

1:09 AM Drank 0.50 L potable water.

1:09 AM Went to sleep.

7:10 AM Woke up after sleeping 6 hours

7:11 AM Drank 0.34 L potable water.

7:41 AM Wolf attack!

7:43 AM You died from loss of blood and shock from a wolf attack

This was in Stalker mode, of course.

These guys don't listen they think because they've played a week they are experts. Yes there are wolves out there, and when you get gangbanged you will die. With the mechanics that currently exist. What I have advocated in the past has been more varied wolf AI and not a single change but a series of additional AI behaviors which are more randomized. I am not advocating making them "less dangerous" if you attack two wolves you should expect to die. However you can also find yourself in a situation where you get one-shotted, and have no real defense against the wolves from 100% health and carrying a knife in +50% combat modifier, a position of strength. What sucks is ending a run like this for no other reason. Yes it would damage you and maybe even kill you but it feels cheap. The Wolf AI feels shallow, that is the part that should be fixed up. If you come around a corner and all the sudden there are two wolves there and you surprise them, they would look at you in wonder to identify if you were a predator or prey. If you don't run from them they can't mark you as prey, it would not be cheap if they would only immediately attack if they had some AI behaviors which could also put them in a state where they aren't guaranteed to do that.

[TLDFAN]

Sounds like an isolated incident, thus likely a bug, not an actual problem with game mechanics though. I'd report the bug.

You don't know that and how could you, because you've been playing "these kinds of games all your life right" lol. Let me see if we can get the band to play hail to the chief for you.

[TLDFAN]

Waving the term realism around. The developers have explicitly stated that they are NOT TRYING to create realistic wolves, or even a fully realistic survival experience. Their emphasis is on challenging survivalism not realism.

I like that we're debating realism in a game that, not only the developers said was not meant to be realistic - what with the geomagnetic storm messing with everything, but that deliberately uses graphics that make it look hand-drawn.

-Well yes, a "measured" realism of course. Raph

This has been the stated goal from the beginning. There is no way you have "meters" in the game measuring things if you aren't interested in a semi-realistic experience. If you want to call it game instead of simulator that's fine. Nobody has said a game can't have measured realism or that a simulator can't be fun. You guys want to dismiss the value upon which the niche that is the marketplace for the TLD, puts on realism, go ahead but the developers do so at their own peril. Obviously there is a limit to how much realism involved but the simple fact that snow takes longer to melt than water does to boil should be an indicator to you guys that the development team is interested in creating realism and realistic experiences where they don't trump gameplay and where they make sense and are with-in reason.

What doesn't make sense are wolves walking around on a lake a half dozen at a time without behaving more randomly and in a stalking manner. Doesn't make sense they don't stalk you or use their primary sense of smell and only appear to be able to see you from a small cone of detection by sight.

[John Dow]

7:43 AM You died from loss of blood and shock from a wolf attack

"Shock" is the key-word here and it means you got by the wolf in a kind of surprise. The same happens if it jumps you from behind or from round the corners/hills.

This causes the so called 'Super Wolves" and as far as I see, it's not a bug at all, but pure intention

[Hylander]

No, I really didn't get hit by surprise. I went out the door, noticed the wolf there, took out my gun (since I was on my way to hunt anyways), aimed carefully (was trying for a double kill), and fired. The wolf jumped up and attacked me at that point. Normally they run away if they aren't fatally shot, but I've seen it both ways. What I hadn't seen before this point was a wolf that could knock me down from 100% to -30% in almost zero time. There was only one wolf.

I'm typically pretty good with wolves. In my last game (Stalker, 104 days), I killed 26 wolves that attacked me. Many of them were deliberate, since I was trying to save ammo. In the end I finished my game by starting another.

[John Dow]

Maybe the surprise was that it didn't run away :shrug:

[coryduran]

No, I really didn't get hit by surprise. I went out the door, noticed the wolf there, took out my gun (since I was on my way to hunt anyways), aimed carefully (was trying for a double kill), and fired. The wolf jumped up and attacked me at that point. Normally they run away if they aren't fatally shot, but I've seen it both ways. What I hadn't seen before this point was a wolf that could knock me down from 100% to -30% in almost zero time. There was only one wolf.

I'm typically pretty good with wolves. In my last game (Stalker, 104 days), I killed 26 wolves that attacked me. Many of them were deliberate, since I was trying to save ammo. In the end I finished my game by starting another.

Yup I dunno still sounds like a bug to me, I have never had a wolf that I was able to see coming kill me instantly (I've never had that happen, for that matter). And despite some beliefs I assure you I've played longer than a week .

[coryduran]

What doesn't make sense are wolves walking around on a lake a half dozen at a time without behaving more randomly and in a stalking manner. Doesn't make sense they don't stalk you or use their primary sense of smell and only appear to be able to see you from a small cone of detection by sight.

I'm confused, you want them to act more randomly, while also acting in a stalking manner?

And I don't believe the wolves only acquire targets through sight, otherwise you would be able to sneak up behind a wolf and just walk behind it as long as you never let it turn around and spot you.

[TLDFAN]

What doesn't make sense are wolves walking around on a lake a half dozen at a time without behaving more randomly and in a stalking manner. Doesn't make sense they don't stalk you or use their primary sense of smell and only appear to be able to see you from a small cone of detection by sight.

I'm confused, you want them to act more randomly, while also acting in a stalking manner?

And I don't believe the wolves only acquire targets through sight, otherwise you would be able to sneak up behind a wolf and just walk behind it as long as you never let it turn around and spot you.

Yes. and yes.

You can sneak up behind a wolf and it does not acquire you except though sight to a certain point. Real world senses on wolves are dozens of times more powerful than in game. When it comes to smell they'd be able to smell you across the majority of the Coastal highway depending on the wind. Mystery Lake would be harder with the peaks and valleys but Wolves and Bloodhounds can detect a smell for hours after someone has moved through an area. In conditions like fog or stagnant air this another animal could be tracked for miles. This isn't modeled at all. They ignore your footprints and sense of smell and rely only on sight.

Would like to see more accurate modeling of the creatures. More deadly, and fewer of them. In a wolfpack against two or three you might stand a chance with a knife and axe or a spear in a defensive position. None of that is modeled like it would be real world. Against a half dozen or dozen or more wolves your option would be hide inside and don't get detected.

If the single lone wolf entity is the best they can do there should still be some more variety in the AI. Right now it is very predictable, very shallow and very cheap, once inside the engagement zone.

[coryduran]

well I mean, I can't sit and say that some of what you're talking about would be extremely cool, but at a certain point are we asking for too much?

Plus, this is a game, not a simulator. I mean I agree that what you're talking about as far as what would be realistic, I just don't know how fun of a game that is anymore. I think I'd be more pissed about a wolf pack stalking me across the map without me ever seeing them, just to gang-ruin my face, than about all the issues in mechanics and the somewhat unrealistic aspects that currently exist.

I have to say though, you seem very concerned with realistic wildlife behavior, and I mean the developers are not trying to do that, and they make it very clear.

[Hylander]

If you guys want a game with realistic animal behavior, you should look at The Hunter.

[TLDFAN]

well I mean, I can't sit and say that some of what you're talking about would be extremely cool, but at a certain point are we asking for too much?

Plus, this is a game, not a simulator. I mean I agree that what you're talking about as far as what would be realistic, I just don't know how fun of a game that is anymore. I think I'd be more pissed about a wolf pack stalking me across the map without me ever seeing them, just to gang-ruin my face, than about all the issues in mechanics and the somewhat unrealistic aspects that currently exist.

I have to say though, you seem very concerned with realistic wildlife behavior, and I mean the developers are not trying to do that, and they make it very clear.

I am concerned with all aspects of realism because games in general have gotten too far away from realism and adopted a painted with the we took some liberties brush at the expense of satisfying their core demographic. The success of a survival game is highly dependent on the realistic suspension of disbelief. Wildflife in TLD are too abstract right now. I'm not trying to encourage them create Big Game Long Dark Hunter 18, but I am looking for more depth to their single iconic villain.

The critical point folks who think it is acceptable to skip on realism in a survival game miss is the re-playability is highly dependent on being able to tweak your strategies on a good feedback system without numerous exploits and with believability. The developers have stated a few different times they are trying to create a realistic game with simulation aspects within reason. Obviously gameplay will trump realism when needed but point to where wolves need not be anymore realistic because it would detract from gameplay.

I am passionate about a variety of missing realism factors such as the ability to start a fire without god items or matches, and other basic survival elements such as staying dry and paying penalties for expending calories in an unnecessarily inefficient manner. Obviously the developers want to encourage environment exploration as that keeps the experience fresh and a player will naturally want to do that. However constant running should come with a corresponding penalty and right now the calorie cost is modeled. A starvation exploit also exists. Removing exploits builds the experience, improving realism also builds the experience, it does not detract from it.

Therefore I support improving the realism and you should too.

[coryduran]

Well I think we agree on a lot of those other elements to enhancing realism, I think we're discussing them in that thread about running in the suggestions board.

That being said, while I am a big fan of enhancing realism, I'm a realist myself. I think asking a game to deliver intense realism in every aspect (which is what this is starting to become it seems like) is too much. I think not only is it too much for the developers to create, but I think it's too much for people to play.

I mean I've said it before but it bears repeating, a large number of people see wolves as too strong in fighting situations as it is, and honestly while your recommendations would make wolves more realistic as to how they act in the world now (even though hinterland says they aren't trying to do that), I think they would also make wolf fights into basically guaranteed deaths. If that's what you want then I can understand that out of a desire for realism, but I think all those players who already complain about wolf attacks are gonna be out of here if you make wolf attacks even more difficult to survive, which it sounds like your recommendations would do.

[Hylander]

I think it would be reasonable to make wolf behaviour more dangerous (and more realistic) on Stalker mode only.