New aiming system is terrible.

[ManicManiac]

Since v1.50, I'm good with the system.  I mean, so far I can tell we don't have to worry about compensating for windage, elevation, projectile drop... it's pretty much just point and shoot.  Admittedly, I've not yet found myself in too many situations where I needed to take many longshots...

[selfless]

THE RIFLE SIGHTS DON'T ACTUALLY HELP ANYMORE!  They are  just distractors.

The ray that determines what gets hit is now coming directly out of your eyeball and goes directly to the center of the screen at infinity.  Always.  No wavering at all.  The only way to miss is to actually try and use the sights.  They are almost never on target.  Instead, start with your target at the center of the screen and you will bullseye everytime, regardless of how far your sights wander.  

I just made a 236 meter shot with my sight picture pointed at the ground...

ADD: version 1.50

Edited May 17, 2019 by selfless

[Ranzer]

On 5/18/2019 at 9:58 AM, selfless said:

THE RIFLE SIGHTS DON'T ACTUALLY HELP ANYMORE!  They are  just distractors.

The ray that determines what gets hit is now coming directly out of your eyeball and goes directly to the center of the screen at infinity.  Always.  No wavering at all.  The only way to miss is to actually try and use the sights.  They are almost never on target.  Instead, start with your target at the center of the screen and you will bullseye everytime, regardless of how far your sights wander.  

I just made a 236 meter shot with my sight picture pointed at the ground...

ADD: version 1.50

This actually appears to be fixed in 1.55 😃  (or possibly in 1.52 or 1.53, I didn't test it in those updates). I didn't see a specific patch note for the fix in any of those versions, but the rifle sights definitely appear to work as expected in 1.55.

[Guest Marcurios]

i dunno, even in 1.56 i can't hit anything, well i managed to shoot a few deer and 1 rabbit, but a wolf, not one single time.
i had 60 bullets, full condition on everything, crouching, wolf came at me, sights dead on, no hit, ever..

i play a lot of games, shooters, rpg, survival games, i never had a game where hitting a target is so difficult.
it's a shame, since bullets are kinda scarse, i refrained from using the rifle for a bit till i saved up a few bullets to begin using it,
but it's only frustrating, the flare pistol i can hit a wolf charging at me 100% of the time and it flies of with a lightshow in it's pelt,
the rifle is actually just dead weight, it's only good for deer hunting, nothing more.

[ManicManiac]

@Marcurios
After hotfixes and so on, if you employ good marksmanship basics you should be in good shape.  Specifically I mean good sight alignment & sight picture.  As for comparing it to other games... most games (shooters especially - ironically) are very far from accurate when it comes to actual marksmanship, and we should be grateful for that.

Even in the long dark all we really have to worry about is sight alignment and sight picture.  We don't have to worry about windage or elevation calculations.  As such, we don't have to worry about bullet drop or half value/full value winds.  We only see a tiny suggestion of the effects of breath control and trigger control only when we are freezing or fatigued.   

I'm sure it's frustrating, but hang in there and keep practicing.    The rifle is a very effective tool, and I've actually had more success with it after the aiming revamp than I did before it was updated.

 

[Addendum]
To be fair this thread was created when Steadfast Ranger was first introduced and there were some confirmed issues that needed to be fixed, which from what I have seen in my gameplay... those things were addressed.

Edited July 31, 2019 by ManicManiac

[ajb1978]

The aiming may not be what you're used to in a shooter, but it is self-consistent within this game.  The rifle and revolver are hitscan weapons that strike whatever the weapon is pointed at.  So making sure your target is lined up with the sights is critical, but once you get that down it's just point and click.  The bow and flare pistol shoot on an arc, so a bit more skill is required for distance shots.  The flare pistol itself is a nightmare to snipe with since you have to aim above your target, causing the pistol itself to obstruct your view of what you're aiming at.  Also a flare shell is the slowest projectile in the game (second slowest, if you include thrown objects), meaning that for long distance shots, the target is likely to get spooked by the noise and run before the projectile reaches them, effectively dodging the shot.

[Guest Marcurios]

i'm always a bit surprised at people's replies. they do not seem to read at all.
i had the sights aligned, and i did not hit the wolf, not 1 time, even when it was almost in my face and i had my sight dead on it's head..
i use the flare pistol up close just before the wolf tries to maul me, so no real curve and traveling time for that projectile, and the flare pistol always hits, the rifle doesn't.
even up close it doesn't like i said before...because i did kill a few deer and 1 rabbit up close i know it has projectiles, otherwise i would have suspected a bug, but
it's clear to me there is something wrong with the rifle, must be..like it jumps of target when i shoot, it kinda feels like that.

and i wasn't talking about shooters only, also action rpg's like Fallout 3, which is known for it's lousy accuracy and bad handling mechanics,
but even there the Hunting rifle manages to hit what i'm aiming at (in first person without vats).

i have been playing with the rifle now for 4 days, playing 8 hours a day, i only hit 4 times out of 60 bullets, that's not normal.
I play games for as long as they exsist, since i go back all the way from where personal computers didn't even exsist at all.
so i pretty much seen all games and played a ton of them, i never seen a rifle this inaccurate.

People might say all they want, but this rifle is just not worth carrying.
Also, the defense mechanic against wolves with knife or hatchet would be much better if it where real time, that way you could resort to knifing a wolf in the struggle before it runs off. now we have a (sorry to say) silly clicking struggle, and then i have to chase it half across the map to wait for it to bleed out.
I'm saying that the fight mechanics need a lot of work to be satisfying, they don't have to be easy, but the way it's done now is not practical.
Also, in story mode, when i fight the old bear, i only have a few bruises, but if i fight a wolf, i have two sprained ankles and a torn up neck and arm..
Since when is a wolf three time stronger then a bear i'm thinking...there a lot of inconsistensies in the game that need to be adressed.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Marcurios
forgot something.

[atomic]

2 hours ago, rancid0 said:

im not trying to argue but in my experience if you find a poster or sign with a straight line on it to line up with your sights with and fire the hit mark will be much lower then where you aimed at, there's pics on the first page of this thread where someone else is showing this happening. 

 

Actually this has been fixed some months ago. Now it looks better. Consider the new aiming mechanics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Marcurios]

21 minutes ago, rancid0 said:

i agreed with you. 

i wasn't talking about everyone in the whole world, just a few..lol..

BUT, i just had some more playtime, and whaddayaknow, i managed to hit a incoming wolf in the head once !
Atleast one bullet hit it's target..lol..

Seriously, i like the game, and the rifle feels good, ironsights anim too, i don't think the stamina approach is commendable though, it just isn't how shooting a rifle works.
Some things should be more like in the real world, i assume it's a hold your breath after exhaling mechanism that they want to simulate, but it fails to work properly.
IRL there is no timer on that, it would be best if they assign a key to that, and put the timer on that key, much like in other games, that way you can use the key when you need to stabilize, not specifically when you use your iron sights.

[UpUpAway95]

While I'm not having a huge problem hitting things, I now do think that I really just like the old system much better than the current one.  I'm still getting hits and, for the most part, the animals eventually bleed out,; but I'm getting fewer critical hits for sure.  Furthermore, aiming just seems "clunkier" than it did before.

[odizzido]

I find I don't have a preference between the old or new system. They both feel fine. On the newer game I started on 1.56 I have hit something like 18/19 shots with the rifle. Lots of those are wolf kills. Before the update I hit about the same.

[atomic]

19 hours ago, rancid0 said:

honestly looking at this it seems to me that your hit was to the left of where you aimed it's also higher then you aimed 

As far as I see I have taken the shots from further away this time. You have to consider that there is always a split second between both screenshots and the rifle & sights are moving. In addition to that I was hungry and overloaded. I was also more windy. However, I feel it's much better now than it was before the fix.

PS - Both shootings were made by a char with no shooting expirence at all (my pacifist 😀). So movement of rifle & sights is quite a chellange.

[Guest Marcurios]

OK, so i went a few saves back when i still had my bullets and figured out how to use the rifle.
So now i got guaranteed hits all the time when wolf charges me.

I have to wait til the wolf is so close it starts charging at me, then i aim and DIRECTLY fire the gun, and it always hits.
If i wait for just 0.5 second with firing it misses it's target.
Also, if i start aiming before the wolf starts charging cause then wolfie still runs in angled toward me, then it won't hit either
cause i have to follow the wolf and that takes time, and time spend is a guaranteed miss in my case, even if i'm on target.
So i think there is more to it then the mechanism being just hitscan.
I also noticed that wolf starts charging if it's further away and you aim at it, like it is getting angry that you point the rifle on it.

These things all have to do why the game decides to NOT make a critical hit, cause i did notice some shots hitting the wolf cause it left a bleeding trail.
However, when i wait till it's close enough and starts charging, then line up and fire immediately, it's 100% guaranteed hit..

I don't like the way this works, but it works every time..

It should ofcourse be way more easy to just aim, and even if you fire a bit later it should still hit, but it just doesn't..
I would like to see the scripts in Unity of this mechanic, i'm pretty sure i could do a better job programming the routine.
I'm inclined to believe that there is some random chance to miss in the script once the gun starts swaying or the stamina timer starts running, and that it
has a bug in it that makes you miss 95% of the time, cause i did manage to hit a few deer this way, but those where docile and standing still.

if i aim and shoot immediately it hits every time..weird stuff..

[ManicManiac]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 1:31 AM, Marcurios said:

i'm always a bit surprised at people's replies. they do not seem to read at all.

I read your posts... and I went on to give the information I thought you'd need to make your long shots.   
The rest comes down to practice and player skill.  If you find that a certain method works for you, then you should do that.  Any game comes down to the player figuring out what works for them.  I personally don't find the aiming mechanic all that difficult.  As I mentioned before I've actually had much better success after it was revamped.  I realize it's frustrating for you, but it's not frustrating for everyone.

19 hours ago, Marcurios said:

It should ofcourse be way more easy to just aim

The aiming mechanics are relatively simple though...   Sure, the behind the scenes stuff (the calculations the game does) is likely complex, but the player interaction is not.  That is to say, what the player needs to do so shoot effectively is pretty straight forward.
[please see my previous post]
Granted it may not be as watered down like it is in most commercially popular shooters, but this also isn't a shooter.  This game is all about careful and deliberate action.

19 hours ago, Marcurios said:

if i aim and shoot immediately it hits every time..weird stuff..
[content removed for brevity]
...If i wait for just 0.5 second with firing it misses it's target.

Except that this isn't weird at all...  Being a person who has been in real situations where I've had to try to hold my aim for long periods of time before taking a shot, let me tell you... it sucks.  The standing and kneeling positions are the lease stable, and the longer you try to hold steady the more barrel sway you have to try and deal with.   ...so this effect is not weird stuff... it just seems like you are more accustomed to shooters in general (which again, in a vast majority of cases does not represent marksmanship very well at all).

The part where you talk about only having a half-second to fire or you are guaranteed to miss... I can't see how you are trying to shoot, so I can't speak to your technique.  I'm also not sure if you were just using hyperbole to describe your frustration or of if you literally timed it.  However I can say that I don't have this problem, so it's safe to assume you can overcome it also.

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 2:56 AM, Marcurios said:

i assume it's a hold your breath after exhaling mechanism that they want to simulate

As a side note: In marksmanship it's not recommended to hold your breath at all... what is encouraged is to squeeze the trigger during your natural respiratory pause.  What they are more likely trying to simulate is the fatigue of trying to hold a rifle steady for a longer period of time - which as I mentioned earlier leads to more muzzle sway and other effects that negatively affect accuracy. 

 

"TL;DR"
I get that the mechanic is frustrating for you personally.  That doesn't mean it's a bad mechanic.  If it's something a person just can't get the hang of, I guess it's just a mater of that person deciding if this is the right game for them.  Not every game is going to be easy for every player... and not every game is going to stylized and tailored to be exactly what every player thinks it should be.

We are all free to have our points of view, but when a person starts making declarative statements based solely on a subjective view point; it's going to very likely lead to discussion. 

 

[Addendum]
I am only offering my point of view on the ideas that have been put forward, and I offer it for consideration in contrast to those ideas.  I am not interested in getting into an argument about it - I am by no means attacking anyone's point of view; only trying to express my own.

Edited August 2, 2019 by ManicManiac
Edited for Clarity

[ManicManiac]

29 minutes ago, rancid0 said:

which imo sounds like it should be easier

Well, not "easier"... just more "accurate."  By accurate I mean requiring more conscious effort to aim in and to pay more attention to the variables.  If a player applies just the most basic marksmanship principals it really is not that difficult  (at least in my experience with it). 

I think the aiming mechanic is just fine it is now.  If the team decides to make further tweaks and changes, then fine... but I don't see any need to change it because it works great right now, and is a far cry more "realistic" than most conventional games that incorporate firearms.  (most games treat shooting like photography - "point and click" )

I know there are people who don't agree, and that's okay.   

Edited August 2, 2019 by ManicManiac

[ManicManiac]

6 minutes ago, rancid0 said:

but it's a game not real life or a rifle shooting

Absolutely correct... I've never claimed it was comparable to real life ballistics.  I've only started that the game handles it in a much more "realistic" way when compared to other games that incorporate firearms.

6 minutes ago, rancid0 said:

I'm not trying to disagree just for the sake of it

I never though that you were.  I'm just participating in the conversation with you.  
Every topic has various points of view, and I am adding mine along side yours (and the original poster's).  I like good conversation, and for me that's what this has been.

Edited August 2, 2019 by ManicManiac

[Guest Marcurios]

I have a rifle in real life, and it's easier to operate then the game rifle.

you see, in real life there is no timer on my breathing, that is the main problem here, in real life i can decide when i'm going to exhale, except when i have been running and tired, then it's a mess, but not when i'm fairly relaxed..

so it might be simulating realistic behaviour to some extend, but when all my stats are full and i haven't been running i should have more control over the way i fire the gun, just like IRL imo.

That's why i say the mechanic to somewhat stabilze the gun should be done by a key, not with a timer..

[ManicManiac]

@Marcurios
I totally respect your option on the subject and I hear what you're saying (so to speak)... it's just that on this particular point we don't agree.  Anyway, I game my two cents and clarified my thoughts on it in subsequent posts.

One last point of clarification:

31 minutes ago, Marcurios said:

That's why i say the mechanic to somewhat stabilze the gun should be done by a key, not with a timer..

It is done with a key... it's the right mouse button.
It seems to me that the timer is there to represent the "fatigue" as you continue trying to hold that position and keep the rifle steady... the sway getting worse as the bar decreased until you have to lower the muzzle.  When this happens, it's kind of like when you feel that little burn in your forearm as you try to hold the pose, you drop to the alert carry, take a moment, and then site in again.  I for one, really like the way the game represents that. 

Edited August 2, 2019 by ManicManiac

[ManicManiac]

1 minute ago, rancid0 said:

I challenge anyone to tell me whats more real about this game

I don't think anyone here is saying it's real.  Just discussing the mechanic and it's implementation.  I like the mechanic others don't... the one's who don't state why they don't like it.  I'm trying to explain why I do like it with counter points to the same assertions that some use to decry it.   

[ManicManiac]

@rancid0
 
Oh... my mistake.

Edited August 2, 2019 by ManicManiac

[Guest Marcurios]

@ManicManiac, that's not a stabilizing key, the right mouse button is a aiming key.
the timer is obviously a mechanic that stabilizes the rifle, the more it runs out, the bigger the sway, once it runs out entirely, it sways like i'm drunk.

@rancid0, if people want to compare it to real life, even if it isn't, it's their perogative, you can't decide for people what they say and do.
If you want that, you need to become a dictator in a 3rd world country.
 

[Guest Marcurios]

haha, relax dude, i was joking..i guess i should have mentioned that cause the rest of the conversation was so serious..
but still, just like you i was also giving my opinion, nothing wrong with that as long as you respect that we all have one..however nonsensical it might be at times, even mine..

anyway, i do feel pretty stupid right now, cause i just noticed that in the settings at controls there is a aiming sensitivity setting..great googlymoogly..
that right there fixed the entire gripe i had with the aiming system, just put that at 20% and i can hit everything fine..
what happened it was at 50% and forsome reason when i pulled the trigger it constantly went slightly off target, now it's fine.
pretty dumb that i forgot to check the settings before starting to ramble..

So now i figured that out, i can only say that i take back everything i said about the mechanic and have to agree with ManicManiac that it works fine.

sorry to have waste your time guys..