thekillergreece

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@Raphael van Lierop Thanks I really did not know that, I've just always assumed that Steam is not drm free, and GOG is drm free. Thanks for letting me know this because for the longest time I was only buying GOG Games, that was until I found out that there were Games that I wanted but they were only on Steam (not on GOG). So it's good to know that Devs can opt into this, so thanks for making TLD drm free! 

ps. I hope nobody would ever pirate this Game, it's the best! and this recent sale on Steam for only 7 bucks really is a steal! especially for all this Game offers! :D 

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Hi,

I'm one of the modders also. I love TLD and have clocked 270 hours on it. I was in the games industry for 7 years as lead designer and shipped a number of AAA games, and truly appreciate how horrible it is to have people flame and criticise your work when you dedicate years of your life to it.

I also totally agree that its frustrating when you've got a vision for a game and people ruin it by changing mechanics that you have explicitly placed for a reason.

However, one thing I learnt when making a game is that it's near impossible to get good endgame balance right for expert players that have clocked 200+ hours and know every trick. Simply having a QA department play something like interloper to 100 days multiple times is not feasible financially and playing your own game so many times it becomes hard to see the game with a fresh pair of eyes - it's too easy to fall into the trap of playing it 'how it was intended to be played' rather than 'how players actually play it'. Also, I understand that when making a game which sells on the back of an initial purchase price, the most important thing is the first few hours of gameplay and so financially it makes no difference if players play for 10 hours or 500.

This is where I think modding can come in - I frequently talk to expert players who understand what little tweaks could be inserted to keep the game interesting and fresh past the first 100-200 hours. I know this is probably a small, niche core of players compared to the wider more casual audience. However, these players can be the most dedicated and vocal in terms of supporting the game online and by word of mouth. Most of my mods are to improve endgame balance and to make more items useful, rather than destroying any vision you might have of how the game is expected to be played. 

Here's a minor example which maybe only expert players would notice: On interloper, collecting cat tails between cinder hills coal mine and Barn on pleasant valley collects you ~30 cat tails, giving you 4500 calories, using starvation thats 6 days worth of food, or equivalent to 2/3rds of an entire deer. I know this isn't a deal breaker for the majority of more casual players, but a lot of us think hunting deer with a bow should be a lot more rewarding than collecting a few cat tails between locations. Similarly, if i'm playing interloper, I want deer to run away when i get anywhere near them. I want to be firing from far away. I want my bow to swing around wildly until i've levelled up. I want to track a deer across the map and take note of the wind direction and get caught in a blizzard because i've gone too far for too long. Expert players WANT to play the game with the interesting bits, and they want the game balanced so that the most fun and interesting way to play is also the most efficient and rewarding.
Another example which might seem minor, chopping limbs gives you less wood burn time than the equivalent time collecting sticks and leaves you vulnerable to wolf attack and uses a hatchet etc. Wood management by expert players typically involves collecting sticks, coal and reclaiming wood when starving (calories burned doing exercise doesnt matter if you dont have any calories!) I would love to see a fir limb and get excited and then ensure i'm warm enough and prepare to chop it up. Similarly, branches don't give enough sticks to be worth breaking them either - these items being useless is a real shame because expert players want to utilise all the items and mechanics in the game and these things have 5 minute fixes.

All that said - there are other ways to fix the endgame issues without mods. For example I worked on a game previously where we had an active group of mature expert players recommending and discussing endgame balance tweaks, working closely with the lead designer to understand the vision so solutions to problems could be invented in the context of the overall direction.

I know its a completely different genre (and revenue model), but another example is Blizzard regularly beta tested endgame content with the top guilds in the world for World of Warcraft. I'm sure I could collect a handful of 200+ hour expert players and modders to provide some more structured feedback to the state of the endgame / interloper / balance, if that would be helpful.

One last thing I make mods for is the challenge side. All challenges default to the same difficulty which makes them samey / easy for expert players, but challenges are very interesting for players that want a specific structured goal in the game whilst still keeping the openness of a sandbox. Recently I released a customisable whiteout challenge with a handful of preset challenges which is fantastic for expert players who want to really challenge themselves, and its not much code to simply open up the shopping list to customise. I previously released a custom nomad challenge which I had brilliant fun playing - playing nomad on interloper is great fun as it takes you across the whole map. Simply allowing players to select a different difficulty for challenges would provide a slew of new replayability options for a very small amount of code.

Anyway, it's great to hear you starting to embrace the modding community at last. We all truly love your game and we just want to help make it even better. :)

 

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@Grignard_TN: attacks on other people and their beliefs won't be tolerated - you have been warned. Please stay on the topic at hands.

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48 minutes ago, kristaok said:

 

ps. I hope nobody would ever pirate this Game, it's the best! and this recent sale on Steam for only 7 bucks really is a steal! especially for all this Game offers! :D 

Unfortunately, the game is heavily pirated. 😢

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1 minute ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Unfortunately, the game is heavily pirated. 😢

:,( Shame on them. This Game isn't like most others that are like $60-100 or more! For Civ 6 it was like 60 some bucks. So this Game is really too cheap imo for what it offers. :) 

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Unfortunately, the game is heavily pirated. 😢

Sad face.

I think I got like 3-4 folks to buy it in the past couple days.

And since I can't play it, I feel the steam issue all too closely. I am avidly against having third parties separating player/owner from software. Granted TLD is a different category/genre than my usual. But, even the copy of simcity I have makes me log into an origin launcher when i want to play. I despise that with every fiber of my being. I hadn't played in months just a week ago, and had to make arrangements to get back into the account. Wretched. I will never be okay with not having access.

Both liking or upvoting, that forum entry feels weird! :) I am most certainly not 'happy'.

Edited by slvrsrfr

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Posted (edited)
On 5/8/2019 at 7:06 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

We live in a society where complex thoughts are simplified to soundbites and it's not possible to disagree with someone without also hating them

I couldn't agree more, strangely enough the human species is every year more educated and less smart. My feeling is that it's inherent to the internet revolution and its anonymity that removes the care about consequences of our actions. Our brains are not made to feel respect or empathy towards some pseudonym or avatar pixels, that are only representation of a human (oftentimes), but not the real thing. Another thing is, today, it's become trendy to be considered a victim. All forms of extremism are growing, because stupid ideas are often simple to understand.

That being said, I've always kept playing the 'vanilla' TLD despite what I see as gameplay flaws, out of respect for the work that has been put into it. I'm around 1000h played, and I see how this unintentional 'drop' of mods will limit the amount of time I spend in TLD.

I've spent some time to find how to 'fix' what I consider the sleep-heal flaw within the allowed frame (Custom Settings). I will continue playing sleepwalking mode. I will certainly play some easy-birch deadman mode. I will still be mad when I spend a match misclicking a torch, I will still be mad that I can't put a fire on a slope to quarter a kill, I will still be mad to get the firestriker  and reclaimed as default firestarting items when I'm loaded with sticks and a lit torch in hand. I will still be mad I don't have a bushcraft possibility for firestarting. I will still be mad I can't sleep on any flat ground. I will still be mad that many places that naturally have rabbits hopping by don't trigger the snares...

But then? When in 100h or 1000h more of TLD play, I'm fed up with these 'flaws' (it's just my opinion) that I have no hope to see fixed since they are not bugs? The last resort of mods won't be available to me.

I just hope that official Mod Support will be a thing by then, I would happily put my hands in it. But since it will obviously have to wait for Wintermute to be concluded, I have little hope and think the most probable outcome is me switching to another game, instead of keeping me on a modded TLD. Make no mistake, I'll still be very glad to have spent so few bucks in a game for so much time of entertainment.

Edited by BareSkin
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11 minutes ago, BareSkin said:

I just hope that official Mod Support will be a thing by then, I would happily put my hands in it. But since it will obviously have to wait for Wintermute to be concluded, I have little hope and think the most probable outcome is me switching to another game, instead of keeping me on a modded TLD. Make no mistake, I'll still be very glad to have spent so few bucks in a game for so much time of entertainment.

Quick point -- It is not my intention to make people wait until WINTERMUTE is finished before official mod support is implemented. I appreciate the tone and meaning in your post.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Quick point -- It is not my intention to make people wait until WINTERMUTE is finished before official mod support is implemented

I would nevertheless respect such a decision,  out of respect for those backers that made the very existence of this game a possibility with Wintermute in mind. I'm playing this wonderful game thank to them as much as Hinterland Studio (upon purchase I didn't knew wintermute existed), so I -as a sandbox player- wouldn't dare asking to be served first. Since I have absolutely no idea about the amount of work to be put behind such or such feature/project, I'll just happily take what comes to me :D

Edited by BareSkin
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I do hope that when mods are supported that they are not Steam Workshop only.

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10 minutes ago, Hawk said:

I do hope that when mods are supported that they are not Steam Workshop only.

That's a good observation, and a good point. :P 

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 Well, this is truly an epic thread.

 Good on everyone for having a civil, considerate and very open discussion, particularly to Raph for being so open and forthright. It isn't often that a community is privy to such personal insights from the developers, and I for one greatly appreciate it. This is the very reason as to why TLD has been and will continue to be in a league of its own; because the developers are a very special group and have fostered an amazing community around their vision.

 Thanks to one and all for this. You are all pretty freakin' awesome people.

 Game on folks. :)

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12 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Unfortunately, the game is heavily pirated. 😢

Hi. New user, and a pirate here. Let me just tell you that if it wasn't for the pirated version, I would probably have never bought it. In my country, where wages are shit in comparison to most of the "civilized" world and therefore, the games are really expensive. I decided to buy The Long Dark only after I played it for about 40-50 hours, and read your posts about not being vehemently anti-modding, but reasonably protective of your artistic vision. So, there's that. Thank you.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Sov3rei8n said:

Hi. New user, and a pirate here. Let me just tell you that if it wasn't for the pirated version, I would probably have never bought it. In my country, where wages are shit in comparison to most of the "civilized" world and therefore, the games are really expensive. I decided to buy The Long Dark only after I played it for about 40-50 hours, and read your posts about not being vehemently anti-modding, but reasonably protective of your artistic vision. So, there's that. Thank you.

The Long Dark if you think about is VERY cheap compared to most Games, too cheap in my humble opinion for what it offers. It reminds me of The Sims in the sense that Maxis had offered something that no other Company has yet to offer = a People Simulator. Like the Long Dark, they have offered a Survival Experience where it's not Zombies or Cannibals that you have to worry about, but it's Nature. Also most Games are going for $60 - 100 or more! I don't really technically buy my own stuff, someone buys it for me... but they recently paid over $60 I believe for Civilization 6 (not including what they had to pay later on for the Expansions & DLC), then for Civilization 5 Complete Edition it was close to $150, then for Civilization 4 Complete Edition it was around $40 I think?. 

Last I checked The Long Dark was only $30, but it was recently on Sale for like a little over $7 that's a steal! :P 

I am glad you decided to buy the Game, because pirating is considered stealing - no offense - but (it robs the Hinterland Team and other Companies from their well deserved Pay) and that's bad and it's illegal. Think about it, even if someone lived in a poorer Country they could try to save a $1 a day, and by the end of the Month they could possibly afford the Game. I thought I saw someone recently mention that when they were younger (in their teens), they saved Pennies to buy the Game. So saving up to buy the Game can be done. :) 

But anyway again, I am glad you decided to do the right thing and buy this wonderful / unique Game! :D

EDIT: Forgot to mention, making Games (Developing) them is NOT cheap. Hinterland had to Crowd Fund this Game because they are a small Indie Dev Team, so they are not swimming in the dough I am sure. Even though I think they deserve to make bank on this brilliant Game! because I am a FIRM believer that the laborer is worthy of their reward. Oh and not only did it cost the Team a LOT of Money, but there's the time aspect too. They spent Years on this Game I am sure, and they are still pouring out their Heart and Soul into this marvelous Game. The Game may be sorta niche now, but I do think it has the potential to just beast it's way through the Industry due to it being so unique! Look at The Sims (the first one), at the time when it was released in 2000 it became the BEST selling Game of ALL time! TS2 and TS3 were GREAT as well! now as for the 4th... heh.. heh.. :P It's okay in comparison I suppose but we won't delve into that! LOL.

Edited by kristaok

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@kristaok - nothing personal. but to you $7.50 USD (the current sale price on Steam) may seem like nothing. But for some people in 2nd or 3rd World countries, where a 12 hour day of physical labor may pay them the equivalent of $5 USD, that $7.50 USD is a TON of money, that they may need to feed a child and family, or pay for medical expenses. Pirating is wrong, but don't judge people based on ONLY your life and you situation. I can afford the game at full price, my friends in the Philippines, Mexico, Poland... may not be able to, because the full price cost is a full week's pay for some of them. They do pirate games as well, simply because they want to try them before they spend a week's pay on it, that they often cannot get a refund of if they do not like the game after buying it blind, due to regional restrictions and laws. So, they do save their pennies, and pirate games to try them, and spend their pennies when they find one they love, with devs they feel good about supporting. That $1 a day you recommend saving may be the only money a teen or younger person may make in a day, if they are lucky. Not everyone comes from the Land Of Free Money And A Chicken In Every Pot.

 

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23 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

@kristaok - nothing personal. but to you $7.50 USD (the current sale price on Steam) may seem like nothing. But for some people in 2nd or 3rd World countries, where a 12 hour day of physical labor may pay them the equivalent of $5 USD, that $7.50 USD is a TON of money

7$ is not a big deal if you live in a country that, despite having 'low' wages, still offers you the possibility to own a game/console, an internet connection, and English lessons.

Plus, having lived in Vietnam for years, which I think qualifies as 'developing' country, I can assure you this is not 7$ there in steam, it's actually lower than 3$ = 100000VND, which roughly the price for a daily moto-taxi ride to work. At such a price there's nowhere in the world where pirating the game is justified by low income. Such low income would prevent you having a PC/console and internet connection.

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22 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

@kristaok - nothing personal. but to you $7.50 USD (the current sale price on Steam) may seem like nothing. But for some people in 2nd or 3rd World countries, where a 12 hour day of physical labor may pay them the equivalent of $5 USD, that $7.50 USD is a TON of money, that they may need to feed a child and family, or pay for medical expenses. Pirating is wrong, but don't judge people based on ONLY your life and you situation. I can afford the game at full price, my friends in the Philippines, Mexico, Poland... may not be able to, because the full price cost is a full week's pay for some of them. They do pirate games as well, simply because they want to try them before they spend a week's pay on it, that they often cannot get a refund of if they do not like the game after buying it blind, due to regional restrictions and laws. So, they do save their pennies, and pirate games to try them, and spend their pennies when they find one they love, with devs they feel good about supporting. That $1 a day you recommend saving may be the only money a teen or younger person may make in a day, if they are lucky. Not everyone comes from the Land Of Free Money And A Chicken In Every Pot.

 

I can speak from personal experience because I used to be what was considered poor... so I know what it's like to be poor that's how I can speak from experience. Everybody always assumes that other Countries have it way worse than America, that's not always true because there are also rich people in other Countries. People tend to look over all the poor hungry / starving Americans, while focusing on the poor and needy in other Countries. Look at all of the Commercials saying DONATE NOW! to feed the hungry! NONE of them are based on Americans, Canadians, or any other close Country, they're ALL based on far away Countries! 

Also if they can afford a PC, or a Gaming Console to even play TLD on then they can afford TLD for the $7 it was on sale for, and probably the $30 full price as well. 

When I was poor I admit it meant a LOT to get a Game from my late Mom, while everyone else was using great Gaming PC's I only had a really ancient Dell (then later I got a Gateway from a Settlement), and I was still rocking the N64 and PS2 while everyone had the PS3 etc.  We were literally living on $600 a Month and like $30 in Food Stamps, try paying $400ish in Rent, then buying Groceries, Toiletries, etc. with that! So I ever only got any Clothes, Toys, Games, whatever on rare special occasions like on my Birthday or for Christmas and even then I felt bad for asking for anything because Mom was Single and she had my Brother and Sister to also buy things for. So yea I usually said no I am good, because I still had Games from the past, or Games that others gave to me, or traded to me for things. Also I literally lived on 3 Outfits most of the time, and they had holes in them, and there was times that we literally had to go and beg for Food, I remember we even ate Freezer burned Foods etc. because it was better than doing without. So please don't give me that talk that I don't know what it's like, because Lady no offense but you don't have an inkling of what me and my late Momma went through! 

PS. This is all coming from someone who has used Pirated stuff before, and it was wrong! there's no excuse for any of it. While my Mom was poor I never wanted to be a burden on her so that's why I pirated, and looking back I could have done without those Games because stealing IS wrong. I could have just said sure Mom I will take one Game and just play that, or I could have said as I usually did nah Mom you need that more than me and just waited it out. Now I do have Money to get a lot of the things I want, but I am definitely not stingey with my Money, and if I knew someone needed TLD but could not afford it I could try to help them out with that because it's better than Pirating. 

Lastly, we are talking about a Game here! we are NOT talking about Food, Money, or a necessity! If someone said I stole Food because I or my Kids or Family whatever was starving, then I would be like wow that's understandable... but we ARE talking about a Game here. Again I have did the same thing, but I stopped I haven't done such thing in a long time. 

So please don't assume that because I appear to have Money that I can't relate, or that I am stingey, or that I am jumping on to this Person because I am not. 

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8 minutes ago, BareSkin said:

7$ is not a big deal if you live in a country that, despite having 'low' wages, still offers you the possibility to own a game/console, an internet connection, and English lessons.

Plus, having lived in Vietnam for years, which I think qualifies as 'developing' country, I can assure you this is not 7$ there in steam, it's actually lower than 3$ = 100000VND, which roughly the price for a daily moto-taxi ride to work. At such a price there's nowhere in the world where pirating the game is justified by low income. Such low income would prevent you having a PC/console and internet connection.

Exactly... and like I said above we are talking about a GAME here... we are NOT talking about Food, Money, or a necessity! -- This is coming from someone who has also did wrong in their past so I oughta know!

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1 hour ago, BareSkin said:

7$ is not a big deal if you live in a country that, despite having 'low' wages, still offers you the possibility to own a game/console, an internet connection, and English lessons.

Plus, having lived in Vietnam for years, which I think qualifies as 'developing' country, I can assure you this is not 7$ there in steam, it's actually lower than 3$ = 100000VND, which roughly the price for a daily moto-taxi ride to work. At such a price there's nowhere in the world where pirating the game is justified by low income. Such low income would prevent you having a PC/console and internet connection.

Read my post again. I  never said pirating is justified by anything, only that I understand why some folks do it, to try-before-they-buy. And my friends who live in countries where they make very low incomes generally have one very old console or computer, paid for by multiple people in their households. 

 

1 hour ago, ThePancakeLady said:

Pirating is wrong, but don't judge people based on ONLY your life and you situation.

The people I know have to consider other expenses first,. and games are a luxury. Being able to try it first, then buy it if they like it and can save up the money to do so, again, often split among several people as far as cost... I get why they do it. I don't do it myself, I can actually afford to lose a few dollars here and there if I buy a game that has been hyped, and then find out I don't like it after I buy it. They can't. 

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9 hours ago, Sov3rei8n said:

Hi. New user, and a pirate here. Let me just tell you that if it wasn't for the pirated version, I would probably have never bought it. In my country, where wages are shit in comparison to most of the "civilized" world and therefore, the games are really expensive. I decided to buy The Long Dark only after I played it for about 40-50 hours, and read your posts about not being vehemently anti-modding, but reasonably protective of your artistic vision. So, there's that. Thank you.

I'm sure this conversion happens (obviously it does, because it happened to you). But I wouldn't want to base my business on it. ;)  

In general, for pricing, we price according to the "power of the dollar" in local currency. So, for example, the game costs a lot less in Russia, China, etc. than it does in the US, Canada, the EU, etc. We aren't asking people to pay the equivalent of the USD or CAD price. But I understand that the game can still be expensive for some people. I can't stop piracy but I do appreciate every pirate who is "converted" to a paying customer. 

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1 minute ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I'm sure this conversion happens (obviously it does, because it happened to you). But I wouldn't want to base my business on it. ;)  

I'm reminded of the old shareware model of the mid to late 90's, which was essentially this very thing.  Doom for instance--the first episode and first 5 weapons were free to distribute, but the remaining episodes (and weapons) were only available to paying customers.  The more things change, the more they stay the same!

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On 5/9/2019 at 11:14 PM, hozz1235 said:
  • Remember break-down weapon - SO useful, but especially when tearing up a house full of curtains!
  • The ability to drain lantern oil from lanterns
  • Indoor lighting improvements
  • Inventory Item stacking = priceless!

Okay. I will try to weigh into this discussion, athough I have never used mods and I don't completely understand how they work. I love this game and I highly appreciate the effort  the devs are putting into this game to make it better for their customers. I have played this game for a couple of years and I enjoyed it like it was delivered by HL. Through this thread I've learned a great deal about mods and my question is the following: would it be possible for both the mod community and dev team to work together in order to implement features in the game, whether it is an update or an official mod/s? It would work this way: the mod community offers to HL team the codes, the HL team inspects them, and if it improves the gameplay and respects HL vision regarding TLD, the new features would be implemented in a hotfix, update or under the form of official mods. Features like those listed above by @hozz1235, which, from my understanding, are current mods. Personally, I would enjoy a lot if the tool which I used the last time would be remembered and I don't know if this feature is supposed to work in the current form or not, or it will be changed in the future. I consider that a colaboration between the mod community and HL would greatly improve everyone's experience.

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Quote

Steam has a DRM solution but it is opt-in by developers. In our case, we've never used it.

And big thanks for that! Some games are sold DRM free on GOG, but yet for some reason have DRM on the Steam version. Anyway, shame that IL2CPP will prevent modding, but I'll look forward to the official mod support. Best of luck and keep up the great work! 🙂

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47 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

I'm reminded of the old shareware model of the mid to late 90's, which was essentially this very thing.  Doom for instance--the first episode and first 5 weapons were free to distribute, but the remaining episodes (and weapons) were only available to paying customers.  The more things change, the more they stay the same!

Right -- well on Xbox we have a 2-hour demo which you can then "convert" to a full version if you like. On Steam, the refund policy there creates a kind of de facto demo (you can get a refund no questions asked if you have less than 2 hours of play time in the first 2 weeks). But you're right, shareware was an early pioneer of this type of model of giving away a base game and then hoping to "upsell" people on the full version. 

With the upcoming shift to subscription/streaming services, developers will have to think carefully about how to structure their game content and how to create a sustainable revenue stream over the long term. It's something I've been thinking about a lot for Hinterland, as it has a big impact on the types of experiences we can be successful with.

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