thekillergreece

All mods are disabled entirely on new update

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9 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Yes, or, like I said, submitting a support ticket is the best way to help us help you: www.hinterlandgames.com/support

(I'm not "support" but our support team is a bit short due to sickness so we're all pitching in to help!)

I wasn't going to continue the off-topic discussion but... I don't remember seeing any mention of a support ticket.
But yes, I will submit a ticket if for some reason I can't get it to be a normal brightness next time I play, I'd love to not have to play with my TV settings when I play different games.

Thanks again for your time, can't say I envy you either- this entire thread would stress me out if I were in your shoes.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, StrangerFromTheInternet said:

The language really isn't the problem here, the problem is maths: frequency = 1 / time  

It could be changed to  "respawn interval" or something like that. So it could be fixed with different language as well.

Edited by FINDarkside

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3 minutes ago, StrangerFromTheInternet said:

the problem is maths

I have a feeling that the calculations and interaction of options and variables are probably a little more complex than we know.

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Just now, FINDarkside said:

They could simply change it to "respawn interval" or something like that. So it could be fixed with different language.

Yeah, it could be fixed at different levels. Either by renaming the setting, or by replacing a "*" with a "/", or by changing the tuning values, and so on, each with slightly different implications :)

I think just renaming the setting wouldn't be a good idea, as that wouldn't fix the issue for players who've selected a "high" respawn frequency in the past but always got a "low" respawn frequency instead - but that's just my opinion. Either fix is absolutely fine 😃

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1 minute ago, ManicManiac said:

I have a feeling that the calculations and interaction of options and variables are probably a little more complex than we know.

Nah, it really isn't. Selecting a value from an array and then multiplying stuff together really isn't all that complicated 😋

Seriously, I've analyzed and re-analyzed this bug so many times now, from decompiled code over asset files to mods that just print the time between respawns for each spawner. Since the bug has been first reported over a year ago on the test branch forum, and then again later on the bug tracker, nothing has changed.

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A bit off topic here. But man has this community changed. We used to all be so friendly around here - most of all to raph and the hinterland crew. Even if we didn't agree we could all have a simple discussion without being at eachothers throats. It's one of the reasons I'm not very active on these forums anymore - even though I still play the game daily. The magic that was once here is just lost to us now.

Constructive criticism is fine. But please do be civil. And please stop giving the dev team such a hard time. This game is a masterpiece with how they've reworked it from predux - if you do have an issue with how something turned out then do voice your opinion. But don't sit there and tell the dev team that you know what's best for their own game.

To be fair raph does come off sometimes as slightly hostile - probably because he's fed up with the crap this community puts him through - and tends to put a lot of emphasis on this being HIS game or THEIR game. That's not a very fair argument since without this community hinterland wouldn't be where it is today and without our support and contributions this game wouldn't have come this far. But also without hinterlands dedication, sleepless nights and hard work over these years it wouldn't have come this far either. So can we all just calm down? Grab a cup of rosehip tea and just, chill. Everyone.

I swear every time I log on to check on updates once every few months I'm met with bad vibes and hostility. This isn't the hinterland forums I know and love.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

Show me where I said "cheat mods" in the post you quoted? And since you can't... please stop twisting my words. 

It's twisting nothing. All the examples you listed are cheats. Flying. Larger inventory. Giving yourself items. I've also seen other people reduce TLD mods to cheat mods. You more than implied that all mods are like that.

 

I haven't used the bugfix mod, but none of the other mods I've used were cheats:

  • being able to drain storm lanterns without dismantling them. And needing to manage fuel containers (you need them to be filled and they don't vanish when empty)
  • shorter reading intervals and saving book progress when you're interrupted
  • free look in cars (can be disorienting, so I can see why this isn't in the game)
  • better placement of items and allowing to move furniture
  • a very nice lighting overhaul that adjusts light levels based on day of time and weather. Vanilla tries that too, but this was a lot more consistent and resulted in less darkness
  • remember the breakdown item so it doesn't always default to the knife when I just want to harvest curtains
  • remove camp fires when you take the last charcoal

The one mod that came close maybe was the one that allows you to harvest cans for scrap metal. It was nice to not spend hours sawing up things, but it also made it a bit too easy to get all the scrap for arrowheads. Even then, that was a one time thing in a hundred day game. And a lesson that maybe not all things that sound nice and are realistic are necessarily good for game balance

Another mod I wanted to try was to repair the broken drawers

Edited by Serenity
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Posted (edited)

Lost of passionate "conversation" here -- let us all remember everyone just wants The Long Dark to be the best it can be.

Obviously it's up to Hinterland whether or not to support mods, but I feel like we're getting mixed messages here.  On one hand Hinterland wants to support modding one day, and that's great.  On the other hand there seems to be a lot of resentment towards the so-called "unofficial" mods that we have now.  I don't understand this, because really all mods are "unofficial."  This begs the question I haven't seen anyone ask yet:  what exactly will an "official" The Long Dark mod look like?  What will make it more "official" than the mods we already have today?  Will mods have to go through an approval process?  Will only officially licensed modders be allowed to make and release mods? 

If the plan isn't some kind of restrictive approval process for mods, then I don't see why "official" mod support can't just start right now by helping modders find a way to avoid having all of the current mods become wiped out by the performance changes.

Edited by Arodin
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11 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I have a feeling that the calculations and interaction of options and variables are probably a little more complex than we know.

I feel like there's a lack of context here. StrangerFromTheInternet is the one who made the mod to fix this bug. Again, just to avoid derailing this whole thing into new argument, he's not trying to say that Hinterland couldn't fix it. Hinterland obviously has lots of stuff to do and juggling with bugs vs new features is an eternal battle. 

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I wasn't really referring to any of those things.  It was more just a general statement.
I don't plan on participating in any argument - I've already had one person lure me into one, that was quite enough for me. :D 

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10 minutes ago, Tbone555 said:

A bit off topic here. But man has this community changed. We used to all be so friendly around here - most of all to raph and the hinterland crew. Even if we didn't agree we could all have a simple discussion without being at eachothers throats. It's one of the reasons I'm not very active on these forums anymore - even though I still play the game daily. The magic that was once here is just lost to us now.

Constructive criticism is fine. But please do be civil. And please stop giving the dev team such a hard time. This game is a masterpiece with how they've reworked it from predux - if you do have an issue with how something turned out then do voice your opinion. But don't sit there and tell the dev team that you know what's best for their own game.

To be fair raph does come off sometimes as slightly hostile - probably because he's fed up with the crap this community puts him through - and tends to put a lot of emphasis on this being HIS game or THEIR game. That's not a very fair argument since without this community hinterland wouldn't be where it is today and without our support and contributions this game wouldn't have come this far. But also without hinterlands dedication, sleepless nights and hard work over these years it wouldn't have come this far either. So can we all just calm down? Grab a cup of rosehip tea and just, chill. Everyone.

I swear every time I log on to check on updates once every few months I'm met with bad vibes and hostility. This isn't the hinterland forums I know and love.

Thanks for the thoughts. It makes me sad to think the community is shifting in tone and sentiment. 

I also apologize if I ever come off as hostile. That is not at all my intent. Yes, I tend to have little patience at times and the love I have for the community may not always shine through, although I assure you I am forever grateful for how much support we've had and how it's helped to get us where we are today. As passionate as any of you might be about the game, or modding, or this community, I don't think you can understand what it means to me. I've put 7+ years of my life into Hinterland and The Long Dark, expect to put many more (but hopefully along with some other things because nobody can eat steak every night ;) ), and have sunk countless hours, days, weeks, years, and a lot of $$ into this operation, all to try to create something special that is worthy of the respect of my family, my team, my peers, and my players. Yes, I may get testy at times -- the modding thing and the "we know better" attitude that sometimes comes with it can be hard to take when you've put 20 years of your life into a craft. But I get it. But not to butcher an analogy, I suspect this is what a chef might feel like if someone walks into their kitchen and says "I have a better recipe for that and I'm going to make it for your customers". It's not the hurt pride as much as the feeling of having failed the players for not having been able to deliver that thing first.

Also -- and I don't expect any of you to really understand how this feels -- it often feels as developers that were are in a new area of vulnerability or hostility with regards to the player community. I have peers in the industry who are completely shellshocked by the hostility of community interactions, the sense of entitlement that can sometimes be expressed by players and not in very productive ways. Many have left the industry as a result. We live in a society where complex thoughts are simplified to soundbites and it's not possible to disagree with someone without also hating them. (For the record, I don't hate anyone -- I just mean, there's a kind of calcification of points of view that is happening all around us and it can be difficult to find a place for empathy in the Thumbs Up/Thumbs Down culture). I'm being vulnerable here so that you can understand a bit of where my head is. I'm not looking for sympathy -- I've been doing this for a long time and I understand the costs and the stakes and what it means to be "out there" in front of your players. But part of my feels an obligation to "hold a line" for my fellow developers who are not as fortunate as we are -- not as fortunate to have the financial means to take our time to work on things until we feel they are ready for release, not as fortunate to have the ability to have experts on the team who are trained in handling community interactions (I'm not talking about myself, clearly), not as fortunate to have a super stubborn head of studio who won't cave to outside pressure, etc. :) 

That has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with me. But, it's kind of part of the deal. If you want a game that feels like a personal outcome of someone's creative vision, and you want to have interactions with that person and have the ability to influence the thought process behind the game, it seems fair to me that you also respect the thought process that went into the creation of something. We have a really strange sense of ownership these days, believing that "liking" something and streaming something or modding something is the same as the fundamental act of creation of a thing (that comment is not targeted at anyone here, it's just a general sentiment about "internet culture") and I'm sure it sounds arrogant of me to say so, and maybe it is arrogant of me to say so, but I don't see those being the same thing. I believe what my team does is something special, is something we have dedicated our lives to (many of the Hinterland team are 20+ veterans of the industry; we only have a handful that have less than 10 yrs) is worthy of respect, just as we respect you by doing our best to give you great value for the money you have given us.

Sorry to ramble but I hate the thought that people feel I am hostile towards them. I'm certainly protective and yes I do bang the "it's our game!" drum a lot and if I do, please know it has as much to do with the world and what I see in our industry as it does with anything in this game or this community. I want you to love The Long Dark and feel a sense of ownership over your experience in it. And I think it's best for you too that we also love The Long Dark and feel a strong sense of ownership over it, how it is played and perceived, how it evolves, and the experience we are bringing to you. Because we have to wake up every day and try to figure out how to delight you, again.

/rant

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Posted (edited)

@Raphael van Lierop
I think majority of this community think you are doing a wonderful job.  Especially considering all the things you have to manage, deal with, and overcome.  I for one am only here because I love the game, and I care about this community.  While none of us can really know or fully appreciate what you have been up against or having to work though day in and day out since 2013, I just want to say that I think you are doing amazing things and I will always do what I can to support your team and their projects.

Edited by ManicManiac
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31 minutes ago, Serenity said:

It's twisting nothing. All the examples you listed are cheats. Flying. Larger inventory. Giving yourself items. I've also seen other people reduce TLD mods to cheat mods. You more than implied that all mods are like that.

 

I haven't used the bugfix mod, but none of the other mods I've used were cheats:

  • being able to drain storm lanterns without dismantling them. And needing to manage fuel containers (you need them to be filled and they don't vanish when empty)
  • shorter reading intervals and saving book progress when you're interrupted
  • free look in cars (can be disorienting, so I can see why this isn't in the game)
  • better placement of items and allowing to move furniture
  • a very nice lighting overhaul that adjusts light levels based on day of time and weather. Vanilla tries that too, but this was a lot more consistent and resulted in less darkness
  • remember the breakdown item so it doesn't always default to the knife when I just want to harvest curtains
  • remove camp fires when you take the last charcoal

The one mod that came close maybe was the one that allows you to harvest cans for scrap metal. It was nice to not spend hours sawing up things, but it also made it a bit too easy to get all the scrap for arrowheads. Even then, that was a one time thing in a hundred day game. And a lesson that maybe not all things that sound nice and are realistic are necessarily good for game balance

Another mod I wanted to try was to repair the broken drawers

And again, you define them as cheat mods. I never did. For some, they may define those as QoL mods. But none of them were bugfix mods. None of them. Which is why i asked for a list of the bugs that mods fixed. Because, I was actually curious, since Hinterland has fixed most bugs I am aware of on PC and XBone in the last 3 years I have been playing the game on those platforms. 

And again, don't twist my words or assume my intent. If you read it as me implying something, it is in your mind only. I did not imply anything. i just listed some of the more commonly known and used mods, that we keep seeing in videos, screenshots and forums postings. I was implying nothing, you implied it, and only you chose to label them as "cheat mods". My intent was to show what known mods are NOT bugfix mods, nothing more,  nothing less. 

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9 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

We have a really strange sense of ownership these days, believing that "liking" something and streaming something or modding something is the same as the fundamental act of creation of a thing (that comment is not targeted at anyone here, it's just a general sentiment about "internet culture") and I'm sure it sounds arrogant of me to say so, and maybe it is arrogant of me to say so, but I don't see those being the same thing.

I don't think modding is comparable to the original act of creating a game, either, but we've still poured our hearts and souls into these mods, into our little sub-community, and into everything in-between.
Sure, they may just be silly little mods, and none of this would exist if it weren't for The Long Dark and Hinterland, but they're our little mods, and they really mean a lot to us.
When I found out that all existing mods would not work on v1.48, that "the era of modding" might end forever and that all of our creations essentially vanished over night, I was genuinely in a depressed mood.
Mods are what connects me to so many people that I otherwise would've never got to know. I love creating mods, I love getting feedback, and I love talking to people about modding.
I honestly couldn't care less if we'll ever get an official modding API or anything like this - I just don't want to lose all of my creations, our little community, our heart and soul, over night, just like this.

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3 minutes ago, StrangerFromTheInternet said:

I don't think modding is comparable to the original act of creating a game, either, but we've still poured our hearts and souls into these mods, into our little sub-community, and into everything in-between.
Sure, they may just be silly little mods, and none of this would exist if it weren't for The Long Dark and Hinterland, but they're our little mods, and they really mean a lot to us.
When I found out that all existing mods would not work on v1.48, that "the era of modding" might end forever and that all of our creations essentially vanished over night, I was genuinely in a depressed mood.
Mods are what connects me to so many people that I otherwise would've never got to know. I love creating mods, I love getting feedback, and I love talking to people about modding.
I honestly couldn't care less if we'll ever get an official modding API or anything like this - I just don't want to lose all of my creations, our little community, our heart and soul, over night, just like this.

I promise the "era of modding" is not over. We will attempt to escalate our Mod Support strategy to get the gap filled as quickly as possible. 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

And again, you define them as cheat mods. I never did.

You're just splitting hairs. Everyone can see what your intent was. But you didn't outright say it so you can keep arguing and attacking people.

Quote

i just listed some of the more commonly known and used mods, that we keep seeing in videos, screenshots and forums postings.

And there we go again, lying about what the most popular mods are. Of course you'll say that you only said "more" instead of "most" and that you never intended to imply anything. It's really pointless to have any sort of discourse with you, so I'll stop here

Edited by Serenity
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@Raphael van Lierop

Wow. I'm sorry it hasn't been easy for you. Being a Dev is tougher than I could have ever imagined. I apologize. You coming clean and out like this has made me have a greater respect / appreciation for you.

ps. I'm sorry if anything I have personally said has came off as bad.  

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2 minutes ago, kristaok said:

@Raphael van Lierop

Wow. I'm sorry it hasn't been easy for you. Being a Dev is tougher than I could have ever imagined. I apologize. You coming clean and out like this has made me have a greater respect / appreciation for you.

ps. I'm sorry if anything I have personally said has came off as bad.  

Please -- I'm not looking for sympathy, and you haven't done anything wrong. I'm learning lots of important stuff hearing these other points of view as well. It's all good. I am very fortunate to be able to do what I do and have what I have and you do not have to feel sorry for me. :) I just want to make sure you all understand that for me and for my team, the act of working on The Long Dark is just as passion-driven as anything you might feel about the game. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

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4 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Please -- I'm not looking for sympathy, and you haven't done anything wrong. I'm learning lots of important stuff hearing these other points of view as well. It's all good. I am very fortunate to be able to do what I do and have what I have and you do not have to feel sorry for me. :) I just want to make sure you all understand that for me and for my team, the act of working on The Long Dark is just as passion-driven as anything you might feel about the game. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

This has really opened my eyes. I have a greater appreciation. Like during the crash I never stopped to think what y'all must go through. Y'all were so quick to fix it even in the midst of the heat. And I again apologize. 

Dont take me wrong, I'm not trying to feel sorry for you. But instead I am honestly admitting I was wrong to get flustered in the past after the recent update. This has helped me to think before I make quick rash judgements. 

This solidifies why The Long Dark is my favorite game! Y'all are amazing! and trust me I don't usually say things unless I really mean them. I'm very blunt. I can sense you do really care for this Game and ALL OF US! ❤️

Long Live Hinterland and The Long Dark! ❤️ 

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Posted (edited)

Alright going to leave me 2 cents here, I really hope it helps add more productive dialogue to the conversation. 

I've been modding the game for the last 2 years now, and since the very beginning I've been hoping and advocating for an end where we, as both big fans and modders, could find a way to work with the studio and integrate our mods into TLD in peace and for the mutual benefit of everyone - for Hinterland, modders, and players alike. I'm not sure why we cannot realize this wonderful and obvious potential that so many games seem to be able to achieve coming right out of the gate.

Yes it's been heartbreaking loosing my "unofficial" mod along with roughly 1000 hours of development, it's even more heartbreaking to see this seeming hostility between the studio and the modding community as it exists today. I feel like such a massive potential is being wasted and realizing this win-win-win potential for all parties is becoming more and more distant.

There exists today, by our estimates - 73 mods, 9 English-speaking modders that we know of, at least 5000+ hours of additional external development for the game, and probably at least 200,000+ lines of C# code bringing new gameplay and tons of new content which have been wished for by the community. I now understand the switch to IL2CPP and it seems to make a lot of sense for the studio. I would just like a genuine consideration and reply to the following, if @Raphael van Lierop you can kindly spare the extra time, I can understand addressing all this can be both frustrating and exhausting.

It seems like an incredible tragedy for the modding content out right now to go to waste, would there really be no acceptable means of integrating these mods with the game again one day? I'm sure there would be many of us willing to spend the time to think this through and explore different methods, even if you cannot spare any associate to work with us. There currently exists modders ranging from beginner C# coders to seasoned software engineers working professionally, and if there was an olive branch extended and a direction we could take, I bet we can accomplish much for the win-win-win potential that I believe is there.

Whatever the answer may be, I'm grateful for the awesome experience I've had with the game, and the genius and selfless modders who've helped me with Relentless Night. I've gotten a lot out of this game, the price on steam really doesn't do it justice, especially with how far it's come and the content that's been added.

Cheers and best of luck with the future development!

Edited by ShieldHeart
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2 minutes ago, ShieldHeart said:

It seems like an incredible tragedy for the modding content out right now to go to waste, would there really be no acceptable means of integrating these mods with the game again one day? I'm sure there would be many of us willing to spend the time to think this through and explore different methods, even if you cannot spare any associate to work with us. There currently exists modders ranging from beginner C# coders to seasoned software engineers working professionally, and if there was an olive branch extended and a direction we could take, I bet we can accomplish much for the win-win-win potential that I believe is there.
 

Yes, absolutely. When we can guarantee proper support for mods, there doesn't seem to be any reason (that I can think of) why all the existing mods couldn't be supported properly.

People seem to be forgetting that the reason why mods are currently broken is that the "re-wrapping" I mentioned above protects our code from manipulation, which is pretty standard for software. It's an oddity of Unity that it's only recently that they've been able to protect the code this way. I've never worked on a game in my career where the players could literally crack open the game, decompile the code and assets, modify whatever they wanted, repackage and distribute. This is common in open source development but not in the kind of development I've been doing for years. So, the reason why mods are currently broken is because...you aren't supposed to be able to do the things you're doing in creating the mods. :) 

When we can support mods correctly, with tools, documentation, proper community support, dev team members to provide tutorials to help guide the creation of assets, etc., there's no reason why the mods that exist or the modders that are out there couldn't be the "tip of the spear" on the new modding community. We would welcome it. Provided it's done within our guidelines -- we're not going to allow any mods that are damaging to our IP, or have content that would contradict our community guidelines, etc.

So, I don't think it has to go to waste. We're not trying to "kill" it. But we also don't want to be strong-armed into it.

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40 minutes ago, Serenity said:

You're just splitting hairs. Everyone can see what your intent was. But you didn't outright say it so you can keep arguing and attacking people.

And there we go again, lying about what the most popular mods are. Of course you'll say that you only said "more" instead of "most" and that you never intended to imply anything. It's really pointless to have any sort of discourse with you, so I'll stop here

Lol! Okay, you go ahead and call me names, and say I am attacking people, a when "everyone can see what your intent was" in attacking me. You can have your opinions, and believe you know me better than I know myself, even if you are wrong. 

And I would be most agreeable to you and I having no further interactions. :)

@Raphael van Lierop - make sure you give me tools to make a proper Pancake Everything mod, when you do give us support for modding. There will be a First Nations village somewhere on the island, with a Pancake Emporium in the middle of it. And a plate of Pancakes on every table in the game. And a new throwing "weapon"... Flying Flapjack Frisbees Of Doom. Here wolfie- have a Pancake to the face!

(Yes, I am going to do silly things with my mods... you have been forewarned.)  ;)

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2 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

People seem to be forgetting that the reason why mods are currently broken is that the "re-wrapping" I mentioned above protects our code from manipulation, which is pretty standard for software. It's an oddity of Unity that it's only recently that they've been able to protect the code this way. I've never worked on a game in my career where the players could literally crack open the game, decompile the code and assets, modify whatever they wanted, repackage and distribute. This is common in open source development but not in the kind of development I've been doing for years. So, the reason why mods are currently broken is because...you aren't supposed to be able to do the things you're doing in creating the mods. :) 

I mean, all of the asset stuff still works perfectly fine even with the IL2CPP backend. That's just down to how Unity packages its assets. And I'm not sure that you could even say that the code is protected. It's just an x86 binary. If you really want to find out how something works, or if you wanted to extract some secrets or whatnot, attach a debugger to it and go to town.

But what is changed fundamentally in IL2CPP is that the excellent interoperability and tooling support that C# (or rather .NET IL) provided, is gone. There's no easy way to reference the game's classes, to call the game's methods, to communicate with the game in any form, basically.

Most of our mods also relied on the Harmony library to change the code that the game executes. Being able to run your own code before or after any method, to change the basic IL instructions that a method is made up of, is incredibly powerful, and it has enabled the creation of so many excellent mods. But what worries me is that Harmony, and runtime code generation in general, doesn't work with native binaries, i.e. with IL2CPP. So I'm worried that most of the mods we currently have would never work with the IL2CPP scripting backend, or that enabling such mods would require a huge modding API that would be just unreasonable for Hinterland to create.

I understand that you and all of Hinterland want to pursue the absolute best performance for The Long Dark, this is absolutely obvious, and that this can never be outweighed by enabling better mods for a small part of the community. So I fully accept the move away from Mono and towards IL2CPP.

But what I'd like to ask you to at least consider would be to maintain two separate branches of the game on Steam - the main, default branch running on IL2CPP (once it has stopped crashing 😋) and a second one running on Mono or .NET that people would have to explicitly opt into - at least until Hinterland's official modding tools are ready. That way, we could keep our current mods for now and then smoothly transition to Hinterland's tools once the time is right.

Anyway - Raph, thank you so much for having this really open discussion with us tonight. You could've shut down this conversation, locked the thread, and started handing out warnings ten times over, and I really appreciate, and it really has changed my perception of you, that you didn't.

I'll go catch some Zs. Have a good one!

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1 minute ago, ThePancakeLady said:

Lol! Okay, you go ahead and call me names, and say I am attacking people, a when "everyone can see what your intent was" in attacking me. You can have your opinions, and believe you know me better than I know myself, even if you are wrong. 

And I would be most agreeable to you and I having no further interactions. :)

@Raphael van Lierop - make sure you give me tools to make a proper Pancake Everything mod, when you do give us support for modding. There will be a First Nations village somewhere on the island, with a Pancake Emporium in the middle of it. And a plate of Pancakes on every table in the game. And a new throwing "weapon"... Flying Flapjack Frisbees Of Doom. Here wolfie- have a Pancake to the face!

(Yes, I am going to do silly things with my mods... you have been forewarned.)  ;)

I would be very disappointed if your mod doesn't turn Great Bear into a giant pancake and the Aurora into a maple syrup shower.

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