thekillergreece

All mods are disabled entirely on new update

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50 minutes ago, StrangerFromTheInternet said:

 And why switch to a scripting backend that will make modding exponentially more difficult? Do they just not see the impact this will have on their future modding API?

As a mod developer I'm not going to complain about this situation, because Hinterland had clearly expressed the don't support mods, so there was no expectations of them to keep modding in mind when making decisions. But as you said there's more to consider here. The switch to IL2CPP means that we will never get as flexible mod support as we had previously (unless they switch back to mono). I seriously doubt we'll be able to make mods like Relentless Night with the eventual mod support.

What comes to these "unofficial" mods, I'd just like to point out that this isn't a commonly used term. It was pretty much coined by Hinterland. For example, despite Skyrim having official mod support, many of the most used mods would be "unofficial" by Hinterland terms, because huge portion of the mods use SKSE (Skyrim script extender), which was not created with official modding tools.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Admin said:

Short-ish answer: mods broke because of a change in Unity we adopted to improve performances. To fix the current PC crash, we may have to roll that back and mods may work again for a short period of time. That is until we find a way to get those performance improvements in safely again, at which point mods are likely to break again. As for why we are currently not supporting mods, we have made it clear in the past: there are a lot of competing priorities while making a game like The Long Dark, with a team our size, at the level of quality that we want. At this stage, mods just create more work for our team still working and focusing on the core game (bug reports, performance issues etc.). We are looking forward to doing mod support justice with proper tools at a later stage.

But don't you think that there is a program that is detrimental to TLD wikia? If you visit there, you will see ton of pics produced by a program which took a lot pics from there and put there (PNG pics, icons, etc). This "ban" to mods will eliminate any form of quality work being done to TLD wikia and that is a bad image. Besides, I do remember you guys appreciated our work on wikia but now restrict/limit our work even further by disablind mods/programs..

That's awful. If mods create more work for the team, sure. Just release a mod/program that allow us to get pictures from the game itself.

Orthewise, let me know if I can contact you privately for pictures we want to extract from the game so that we can use them for TLD wikia for quality sake. Thanks.

Edited by thekillergreece

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Sigh...

I feel I should weigh in on this.

On one hand, I love the modding community because they allow me to crank the difficulty on the game up to 11. Now that I am forced to play without mods, I find Interloper to be a walk in the park. I no long can freeze to death inside? SHEER LUXURY!!! That said...

I have to approve of the change to the new code system. The performance is simply the bomb. I am so glad he switched over because so much crap that I have had to deal with in the game are gone. The Sound Quality ALONE is SO WORTH IT! And the graphic improvements, well, my eyesight is shot to hell and I see in 16 crayola colors, so high end graphics are lost on me, but I have noticed the improvements all the same. (love the new backpack design)

I hope the change wasn't just to screw modders. I doubt it was. It seems like the choice to switch code architecture was one based on performance and I cannot disagree the performance is VASTLY improved. However, yes, modding has been dealt a terrible blow.

Regardless, I must defend the game designers in this case. There is a reason they discourage modding. THIS IS IT. If they were supporting mods, then they would have to weigh the needs of the modding community against the needs of the code itself. The ability to turn on a dime as far as what sort of architecture is paramount in this industry. Two different sales models, this is. And I will be the first to say, "PICK A LANE" The Game Designer who tries to make everyone happy, makes NO ONE happy.

HLG has picked a lane. No Mod Support.

It makes me sad, but, I respect it. I understand it. I know that time is a fungible resource and time spent on mod support is time spend NOT improving the base game itself.

 

However... as a caveat... I would point out this:

The Unofficial Mod Support in many ways has been FREE GAME TESTING for TLD. Many of the people who were in the mod community came up with great ideas and ways to modify the game in ways that not only were interesting, but were then Wear Tested time and time again. We know EXACTLY how these mods worked, where the bugs were, what worked, what didn't. What streamlined the game, what screwed it up. What people actually added to the game, and what was useless fluff.

Perhaps, instead of a disdainful dismissal of the modding community, we could take all that "off brand" game testing and present HLG with a "Best of" list of suggestions that Raph could just... add to the game itself.  Why worry about Mod Support, if all the features the mod community came up with becomes part of the core game? Of course, Raph would have to be the one reaching out for the feedback, but I assure you, there is no animosity among the modders. I have no doubt they would each LOVE the opportunity to expound at great length the mods they created/played, if asked.

 

Just my two cents.

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13 minutes ago, TheEldritchGod said:

 

Don't forget that I don't use mods but an admin member of the TLD wikia uses a program to extract high quality pictures from the game. Check the wikia, check pages and you will understand.

This program doesnt seem to work now. I doubt HLG will give us a tool allowing us to resume the work nor give us the high quality pics cos that would be time consuming for them.

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Took a look at the WISH-LIST section of the forum. "Remove fires" - an example of a sensible, expected mechanic. Recent post too. I assume this keeps popping up quite often. Soooo, why has this not been implemented yet? Things like view obstructing breath, limited rotation inside a car, getting rid of camp fires (that should burn out and just leave charcoal really). And that is when mods stepped in. "Here you go" attitude, five minute job to install and play happily. Who knows, (many) mods may have not even been made, if devs listened to these ideas. Basic, sensible stuff really. How many time have I reported the fact one cannot dismantle a ruined snow shelter. Even the fact, that this clearly is a broken mechanic does not trigger any action. 

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@jerry486 or how about all those metal cans laying around? being able to break them down for the metal would be nice. :P 

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1 hour ago, jerry486 said:

@kristaokWell, you know: There's a ___ for that :D

No links please don't kill me!

Haha :D sadly they're broken so I heard at least for now. 

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Okay. I am a modder (not for this game, but for others, WITH supported modding and modding tools...), so is my husband, so is my daughter. We all enjoy modding to customize games. 

We are all also artists. 

And how all 3 of us see  this situation like this:

Well, Leo... since you didn't finish it, We did. We think it's better. Sorry about the tear at the bottom. You'll fix that for us all, right? 829564537_MoanaLisa2.png.4a82fd962c531f514fd20e3dc7f524d4.png

When the game is done, and they give us tools that they use, that will not break the game, we will mod the heck out of it.

But until then, the modders who have already done so are THE ONLY ones responsible for their mods not working, and THEY need to do the work to fix them, or create new ones. NOT Hinterland.

As an artist, if you came into my house, took my art, ripped the canvas out of the frame, crumpled it up, ripped it, and drew a smiley face on it, because you think it looks better that way, then came to me and complained that the painting is now crumpled and won't go back in the frame and hang properly again... get out of my house. 

 

As a SW dev, if someone modified any of the programs my business sold, and then distributed the modified software to the public, who then came to my business when the modified program did not function properly because of a conflict created by the modifications... they would be escorted out of my offices, and the modder(s) would be served with legal documents along the lines of Cease And Desist Orders. If we release the SW as freeware or open source, then have fun with it, but we still won't fix it for you if it breaks. That is on you, the person who modified the program.And if we ship and update to our SW, that breaks your modifications to our product... still not going to fix it for you.  We did not cause the thing that broke it, we aren't responsible for what happens if you take a program and alter it and have it stop working.

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2 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

But until then, the modders who have already done so are THE ONLY ones responsible for their mods not working, and THEY need to do the work to fix them, or create new ones. NOT Hinterland.

Hi, mod dev here. In general, I'd agree with you. If v1.48 had been any other update, sure.

The difference is that they didn't just make changes to the game's code, but they switched the Unity scripting backend. It used to be Mono, so the game's DLLs all contained .NET IL that was easy to work with and write mods for. For v1.48, Hinterland switched to IL2CPP. That's a Unity-developed AOT compiler that takes that .NET IL and outputs platform-specific x86 assemblies. I assume you know just as well as me what such a change means for modding.

This isn't a software issue, this is a software distribution issue.

12 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

As a SW dev, if someone modified any of the programs my business sold, and then distributed the modified software to the public, who then came to my business when the modified program did not function properly because of a conflict created by the modifications.

???

No, we modify the game that they sold, but we don't distribute the modified software. We distribute our modifications. People still modify the game themselves, as they see fit.
You wouldn't say that someone who hands out colorful curtains for people to hang in their houses distributes "modified houses".

Also, no, we're not here to talk about "a conflict created by the modifications". We're here to talk about them possibly removing any possibility of efficiently creating mods for the game without any replacement.

Seriously, especially as a software developer and modder, you should know what such a fundamental change how software is built and distributed means to other code that depends on that software.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

As an artist, if you came into my house, took my art, ripped the canvas out of the frame, crumpled it up, ripped it, and drew a smiley face on it, because you think it looks better that way, then came to me and complained that the painting is now crumpled and won't go back in the frame and hang properly again... get out of my house. 

I just need to fix this false analogy:

As an artist, if you came into my house, bought a copy of my painting, and then drew a smiley face on it because you think it looks better that way, then I take your copy away and give you a new copy with a sharpie-repellent coating, and you then complained about it... get out of my house - why exactly?

Kinda doesn't really work that way when it's adjusted to reality, does it?

Edited by StrangerFromTheInternet

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Or companies no offense can get with the times and promote modding, and be more  inclusive, this is why I love certain companies that allow and even promote such things. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, kristaok said:

or how about all those metal cans laying around? being able to break them down for the metal would be nice. :P 

I've used that mod in my last game. One the one hand it's nice and makes a lot of sense. On the other hand it was a bit OP maybe for forging

 

As for a developer not wanting to deal with issues caused by mods. That's perfectly understandable. But they could just ask if people use mods and ignore bug reports caused by mods. They have every right not to support mods actively, but they don't have to fight them either.

There are also developers that are fine with such bug reports. Take Factorio. And that's a small studio too. They fix a lot of bugs in systems that work fine in vanilla, but break when mods change them in ways that weren't intended. Maybe not with the same priority, but things get addressed. But they go out of their way to support modding in general, like adding stuff to the API and scripting system when requested. Or even giving some modders source code access to prepare for a new release. At the same time vanilla always priority - like them changing some names internally in a recent patch, which broke a lot of mods

Edited by Serenity
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7 minutes ago, StrangerFromTheInternet said:

I just need to fix this false analogy:

As an artist, if you came into my house, bought a copy of my painting, and then drew a smiley face on it because you think it looks better that way, then I take your copy away and give you a new copy with a sharpie-repellent coating, and you then complained about it... get out of my house - why exactly?

Kinda doesn't really work that way when it's adjusted to reality, does it?

You did not buy a copy of the game, you do NOT own the game, You bought a licence that allows you to play the game. Yes, my analogy is valid, yours is not. 

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7 minutes ago, kristaok said:

Or companies no offense can get with the times and promote modding, and be more  inclusive, this is why I love certain companies that allow and even promote such things. 

And you can get with the times and give them a bag of money to pay for the additional manhours (paychecks) that it will need to create the modding tools and ship them, and give tech support to the modded games. You do get that additional support requests does = additional time and money on their part? It doesn't just magically happen instantly, and for free. They will give us modding support, when the game is done, and they CAN give it full tech support without overworking their employees. And BTW- go find me a list off all games that do have modding support,. and those that don't. I am willing to be I know which list will be longer. Sorry not sorry, but you are looking at this through a blindfold.

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Just now, ThePancakeLady said:

You did not buy a copy of the game, you do NOT own the game, You bought a licence that allows you to play the game. 

That's not how this works. Legally, you do own a copy of a game. Games are goods, not services.

3 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

Yes, my analogy is valid, yours is not. 

You can gladly replace bought a copy of my painting with bought a license to download and indefinitely use a copy of my painting. It doesn't change the fact that your initial analogy was wildly inaccurate.

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21 minutes ago, StrangerFromTheInternet said:

Hi, mod dev here. In general, I'd agree with you. If v1.48 had been any other update, sure.

The difference is that they didn't just make changes to the game's code, but they switched the Unity scripting backend. It used to be Mono, so the game's DLLs all contained .NET IL that was easy to work with and write mods for. For v1.48, Hinterland switched to IL2CPP. That's a Unity-developed AOT compiler that takes that .NET IL and outputs platform-specific x86 assemblies. I assume you know just as well as me what such a change means for modding.

This isn't a software issue, this is a software distribution issue.

???

No, we modify the game that they sold, but we don't distribute the modified software. We distribute our modifications. People still modify the game themselves, as they see fit.
You wouldn't say that someone who hands out colorful curtains for people to hang in their houses distributes "modified houses".

Also, no, we're not here to talk about "a conflict created by the modifications". We're here to talk about them possibly removing any possibility of efficiently creating mods for the game without any replacement.

Seriously, especially as a software developer and modder, you should know what such a fundamental change how software is built and distributed means to other code that depends on that software.

And if I shipped an update to MY software, it is meant to work with MY software, not any modified version of it. As a dev, I am in no way responsible for an update that works with the product I create breaking a modification that someone else tacked onto it. Period. 

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5 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

And if I shipped an update to MY software, it is meant to work with MY software, not any modified version of it. As a dev, I am in no way responsible for an update that works with the product I create breaking a modification that someone else tacked onto it. Period. 

"'How to make your company immediately lose a large number of clients and get fired' in 1 easy step!"

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30 minutes ago, StrangerFromTheInternet said:

"'How to make your company immediately lose a large number of clients and get fired' in 1 easy step!"

"How to own a business and not go under because of entitled people thinking you need to do their work for them on top of doing your own...

You however, i would likely fire in an instant. :)

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I'm not going to post the link here, but if you look on reddit the directions are there on rolling back. I'd do that before that option is removed if you want to play with mods. You lose any new content from the last update on, but unless there are changes you really want thats a good way to go. TBH I do that will all my early access games. In case the take the game in a direction I dont like or break things I can still play the one I liked and keep working. I did this with 7dtd as well

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@Admin I fear this discussion is starting to get heated now. I really don't want me or anyone else to get in trouble, but I feel like this thread is headed down hill. 

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32 minutes ago, Amazombie said:

I'm not going to post the link here, but if you look on reddit the directions are there on rolling back. I'd do that before that option is removed if you want to play with mods. You lose any new content from the last update on, but unless there are changes you really want thats a good way to go. TBH I do that will all my early access games. In case the take the game in a direction I dont like or break things I can still play the one I liked and keep working. I did this with 7dtd as well

Before I do that, I'm going to wait to see what HL is going to do.  They mentioned they may temporarily roll back some updates to fix the crashing (which would re-enable mods).

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36 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

Before I do that, I'm going to wait to see what HL is going to do.  They mentioned they may temporarily roll back some updates to fix the crashing (which would re-enable mods).

They did, and I believe they do, but, they also said it wont be permanent. As soon as they fix what was causing the crashes the mods are going away again. 

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2 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

And if I shipped an update to MY software, it is meant to work with MY software, not any modified version of it. As a dev, I am in no way responsible for an update that works with the product I create breaking a modification that someone else tacked onto it. Period. 

You're arguing against something nobody has said. No one here has said that Hinterland can't (legally or any other reason) change to IL2CPP. People are simply expressing their concern about how this will affect modding. Your argument boils pretty much to "My game, my rules", which is of course true. But you're trying to argue that people can't express their opinion about something unless Hinterland is legally required to comply with your wish. Might as well close all the wishlist and critique threads right?

As I already said, I personally understand the change, but if people don't find the benefits of IL2CPP outweigh modding, they should be able to express their opinion it. I also partly believe that the situation would be a bit better if Hinterland wasn't so strongly against modding from the beginning. They even took over the TLD subreddit in pretty shady way and banned talking about mods there too. While this should be obvious, there's a lot between "ban talking about mods everywhere we possibly can" and "make official modding support, make contracts with every player promising that updates won't break mods". Again, no one is saying that Hinterland is needs to do or not do something, people are saying that they wish Hinterland did or did not do something.

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