"survival mode update" ... is this a joke?!?!?!

[MueckE]

The author was criticizing that there is no "real" update for survival mode. He thinks that at some point Hinterland finally will develope a concept for sm, regarding it as a game itself. Making wolves harder to kill, more deadly or the weather colder actually doesn't make it harder - just more annoying But you are right, as long you don't know "everything" there is still some challenge and you might think more wolves equals difficulty. But again, in reality that's not true.

The author is at the stage where he recognizes that there is no concept, no thought through survival game, just a sandbox and he thinks that Hinterland, at some point, will adress this - but they won't. It will stay a sandbox because the effort to change this against the few players who benefit is inbalanced. Again, for most of the players it makes no real diffrence and yes, in the end you have to admit that you had many hours enjoyable playtime for a relativly low price.

 

[LilWolf]

4 hours ago, MueckE said:

The author was criticizing that there is no "real" update for survival mode. He thinks that at some point Hinterland finally will develope a concept for sm, regarding it as a game itself. Making wolves harder to kill, more deadly or the weather colder actually doesn't make it harder - just more annoying But you are right, as long you don't know "everything" there is still some challenge and you might think more wolves equals difficulty. But again, in reality that's not true.

The author is at the stage where he recognizes that there is no concept, no thought through survival game, just a sandbox and he thinks that Hinterland, at some point, will adress this - but they won't. It will stay a sandbox because the effort to change this against the few players who benefit is inbalanced. Again, for most of the players it makes no real diffrence and yes, in the end you have to admit that you had many hours enjoyable playtime for a relativly low price.

Yes, I read the thread and I understand what the autor says . Maybe I haven't expressed myself well. I'm not going to talk about what has already been said. I just wanted to highlight something you commented in your previous post:

On 5/16/2019 at 9:06 AM, MueckE said:

For the majority of players it is a survival game because they play it a few hours and that's it.

I can speak for myself, but also I know other players (including youtubers) with more than 100 hours, or 200 hours, playing between Voyageur and Stalker because Interloper ("very hard") can be frustrating. Even knowing "everything", play in a constant challenge may not be the point of many players. And again, for those who want a "real" survivor game, it should be done through customizable mechanics IMO. So, I don't think it's matter of hours played.

[Looper]

8 hours ago, LilWolf said:

Yes, I read the thread and I understand what the autor says . Maybe I haven't expressed myself well. I'm not going to talk about what has already been said. I just wanted to highlight something you commented in your previous post:

I can speak for myself, but also I know other players (including youtubers) with more than 100 hours, or 200 hours, playing between Voyageur and Stalker because Interloper ("very hard") can be frustrating. Even knowing "everything", play in a constant challenge may not be the point of many players. And again, for those who want a "real" survivor game, it should be done through customizable mechanics IMO. So, I don't think it's matter of hours played.

As discussed several times - I think the troubles aren't with difficulty but with durability. In all experience modes the games becomes very stale and repetitive after say 50-70 days. This comes from fact that  no factor in the game really changes after this and you've got all the loot/clothes. 

HL (Ralph) stated several times that they would like to approach strengthening the midgame with new challenges which will give alle experience modes benefit. I think OP will benefit from this as well. A sanity-meter kicking-in, malnutrition or the need to know more of the islands history could be drivers. Longer, colder blizzards after 50-70 days with warnings could be a driver to ensure stockpiles. 

Imagine you have to keep a fire going indoor to survive even just for 1 day and night during a deep blizzard - how it will tax your ressources and make sense of building up. Imagine you have to find a new book, a new location or some notes, computermesages etc. to keep you from going completely crazy. Or a need for several plants to balance your diet. This will certainly drive more exploration need and more challenge in midgame.  

Imagine if you could use the radiostations during aurora to intercept broken messages. I guess with the music playing from normal radios something is going on in the mainland. ☺️

Edited May 17, 2019 by Looper

[LilWolf]

@Looper I agree with you and I'd like to see all those "experiences" introduced in the midgame too. Make it different doesn't mean make it harder. So, if "challenging" means that wolves are more aggressive and they''ll smell you for kilometers that's what I mean isn't enjoyable (at least for me); keep a fire because of a deep blizzard or balance the diet because you ate too much meat (and maybe you even have parasites) or intercept broken messages during auroras makes the game different (and challenging) with new elements without "struggling" all time and even be stressful.

[ben91]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 1:15 AM, BareSkin said:

I have to thank you for validating once again my theory that the less people are prone to logic, the less they use punctuation, the more they use unjustified capital letters. (the Bible has this problem too <- joke)

While I do agree with you that every update makes the hardcore gaming (aka deadman and others) easier since you basically get 2 cooking spots, well fed buff , birch tea and energy drink without payoff, I also do realize we represent maybe 5% of the player base, and the more people play TLD, the more we get content and updates. Oh and btw, I just played the new build, you get sprained much more often when playing hardcore since you don't have enough time to lose following the smooth paths. Since a sprained wrist leads rapidly to death, well, not much easier from this POV.

welcome to the german Computer System which basically automatically changes capital letters in every word. and as a german i am not really used to the english punctuation, besides not caring that much About that in a Videogame Forum, but i appreciate your Display of ignorance ^^

thats why i try to promote a development that focusses on fundamental aspects which imrpoves the Gameplay experience for every Player instead of only a part of the community. a good sprain mechanic doesnt mean much when the fundamental Gameplay is quite stale, boring and unchallenging for experienced Players. but that is a good example for priorities, while the improved sprain mechanic is very good by itself, there are other more fundamental mechanics that would make the base game more interesting and should have a higher priority.

[ben91]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 1:51 AM, ManicManiac said:

Now getting back to the matter at hand... there have been several updates since the game came out of early access and officially released.  Many other publishers / developers (I can name more than a few, but I'm not going to do that in a public forum) would have been nickel and diming their communities; charging for each update as a "Paid DLC" or "expansion packs."

the Thing is, many People would be happy to pay Money for updates and development if These updates improve their Gameplay experience. i would rather have to pay Money to Play a game that i enjoy instead of playing a game for free that i can not enjoy.

[ben91]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 1:44 PM, Fuarian said:

 In the update video @Raphael van Lieropmentions how unpredictably is what makes TLD great and challenging.

well, that worries me if the developers think TLD is unpredictable and this unpredictability makes the game challenging, but it also explains why it takes so Long to improve These aspects.

honestly, the only unpredictable Thing in this game is where some important Survival items spawn, while that is also only an issue in the early/mid game and dosnt affect the end game.

on the other Hand there are just so many predictable and static aspects in the game, which make the game not very challenging at all. for example all the dead survivors and deer carcasses on every map which exactly spawn at the same Point and make the beginning of the game so much easier. but the most important Thing is probably the static design of animals in this game. not only do animals have certain spawn Point on the map, they also have specific paths and respawn timers. Hunting could and should be one of the most important aspects in the game which especially in the end game could force Players to travel from Zone to Zone to find some Food and provide some very interesting and challenging Gameplay. but unfortunately instead it is all About static respawn Locations and timers, which is neither unpredicatble nor interessting or challenging for me.

[ben91]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 4:07 PM, hozz1235 said:

@ben91, 2 words: Custom Mode

i did not expect that some People still dont understand why the current custom mode does not solve that Problem, but if you were not able to understand it so far, i can explain it to you again.

the custom difficulty mode basically lets you only choose between the Settings of the already existing 4 difficulty modes, with interloper as the top end of difficulty, therefore it is basically impossible to create a custom mode that is more challenging than interloper.

[ben91]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 6:22 PM, TerribleSurvivor said:

Frankly speaking, the game doesn't lack any challenge, it isn't even tedious or boring for me nowadays. Today, I even realize on how much of its beauty i missed out on. The freedom it gives you. It's especially the freedom that makes this game amazing. Not being forced into some A+ game strategy to beat the odds is what sets it apart from the many other titles you could play for a challenge (Dark Souls, Competitive Pokémon, Chess, ...). TLD cannot even be considered a "real" game to be honest. It is more like a visual poem, something you are supposed to enjoy while you are playing, not always a challenge that must be overcome. On the contrary, you can simply enjoy the view if you choose to. Or you go on a wolf hunt spree (which can become quite a challenge). You could also try to find some good spots for beautiful screenshots. Whatever pleases you, basically.

By the way, i do not even dislike your post. On the contrary, i like some ideas like the one about a higher variety of challenging elements instead of just plain wolf and item abundance. Better customization of the game would be a very welcome addition too. But if Hinterland has no plans on implementing such features we gotta deal with it. And honestly, the game is in a very good state already, especially since the latest update.

according to the Definition of challenge, the game does exactly lack that for me. that does not mean that i can understand that you still have a challenge and enjoy the game. however, just because you feel that way, that doesnt mean that other People also have to feel that way or want to enjoy the game how you are able to enjoy it. and while i am promoting a Gameplay experience that provides the opportunity to every Play to basically enjoy the game how they would like to, you seem to want to convince other People of your idea of the game, even if they feel the exact opposite. that is what surprises me the most reading all the comments, that some People dont want to realize that other People dont enjoy the game how it is, and instead of accepting that opinion, they seem to  feel personally attacked and defend their Point of view, while the only Thing i am asking for is a Point where every Player is able to enjoy the game, and i wonder why so many People seem to have a Problem with that.

you just said that you would also welcome These changes. and i can assure you that Hinterland has plans on implementing such Features in the future, which the first step of implementing interloper, custom mode Shows.

if the game was in a very good state, some parts of the community and Player base would not feel left out and frustrated by the pace of development.

[ben91]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 9:09 PM, Ape88 said:

That's not even taking into consideration the fact that when I first bought the game on Steam, it was still in the stage when Survival Mode was really considered just a testing ground for story mode and only stayed as a feature because so many people enjoyed it.

have you ever asked yourself why so many People like Survival mode and what keeps Player playing this game over a Long Periode of time? it is because sandbox/Survival mode has the potential of indefinite Gameplay experience and replayability, if done correctly. and exctly that aspect of indefinite replayability is currently missing in TLD due to the lack of challenging Gameplay for experineced Players and lack of customization.

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 9:09 PM, Ape88 said:

Maybe it is just my 31 years of life and impoverished background showing but it gets under my skin when people don't realize the value they get for the price they pay for something and complain.

it worries me that someone of that age does not seem to be able to deal with another opinion/criticism and uses the Argument that criticism should not be allowed just because of the Price of something.

[ben91]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 9:52 PM, kristaok said:

I do think it's more difficult, because after the Update I did a Voyager Run and literally died by 3 Wolves on Day 7.  

dying in a Voyager run adds so much more substance to your comments in a thread About the lack of challenge for experienced players^^

[ben91]

On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 11:21 PM, Vince 49 said:

Second, there have been updates to Custom Mode, although many are subtle.  For example, in the Rugged Sentinel (1.37) version, playing Stalker level, there was always a storm lantern and a broken arrow next to the dead guy just when you entered the lower part of the Carter Hydro Dam.  I like to play Stalker without the rifle, so tried Custom mode, starting with Stalker but removing the rifle.  When I did, I noticed that the broken arrow next to the dead guy was absent.  If my memory is correct, the storm lantern was also gone, along with the hunting knife near the bottom of the stairs to the second dynamo.  When I got an ultrabook, I updated to Vigilant Flame (1.47).  The broken arrow, storm lantern, and knife we back where they were in standard Stalker mode.  These, and many others, aren't in you face changes, but useful just the same.

they mght be useful for you, but they make absolutly no difference for experienced Players. like i said, just because it is still a challenge for you to survive, it doesnt mean that it is the same for other peolpe^^

[ben91]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 9:06 AM, MueckE said:

Just watch how new players or players who play just a little struggle even in pilgrim mode. For the majority, that is hardcore survival and if you are honest to yourself, for you it was the same when you started playing.

of coruse it is, but the more experienced you get the less challenging it is. i wish i would be bad at this game again because These Moments are when you have the most fun playing this game. i remember when interloper came out how much i enjoyed the game for a Periode of time because it reminded me how much fun it was to Play the game when you have a challenge. and it was exactly the same for People i was watching playing this game on YouTube and twitch, who finally had the Chance to experience that Kind of gameplay again. but since basically Nothing has changed since then to provide These Players with a challenging gameplay, i dont enjoy playing the game anymore and the same goes for People i used to watch.

so while unexperienced Players are in the very fortuned Situation to be able to enjoy the game, experiened Players abandoned the game due to the lack of improvement and being ignored in the development.

[ben91]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 8:36 AM, MueckE said:

The author was criticizing that there is no "real" update for survival mode. He thinks that at some point Hinterland finally will develope a concept for sm, regarding it as a game itself. Making wolves harder to kill, more deadly or the weather colder actually doesn't make it harder - just more annoying But you are right, as long you don't know "everything" there is still some challenge and you might think more wolves equals difficulty. But again, in reality that's not true.

The author is at the stage where he recognizes that there is no concept, no thought through survival game, just a sandbox and he thinks that Hinterland, at some point, will adress this - but they won't. It will stay a sandbox because the effort to change this against the few players who benefit is inbalanced. Again, for most of the players it makes no real diffrence and yes, in the end you have to admit that you had many hours enjoyable playtime for a relativly low price.

 

i think you underestimate the value of Survival mode, like i said, it is not the Story mode that keeps Players interested in the game in the Long term, it is the technically indefinite replayability of the Survival mode that keeps People interested and able to enjoy the game. what do you think what happens after they fully released the entire Story mode? peolpe wont come back and Play Story mode over and over, no it is the Survival mode that will do that. and Hinterland will more and more realize that and start working more on Survival mode. but according to the current pace, this will take a couple more years.

 

[ben91]

 

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

This is demonstrably untrue.

as i have already explained above: custom mode does not provide any gameplay more challenging than interloper. that is a fact.

and it is also a fact that it is no challenge to survive in this game for experienced Players, and if you struggle to survive you are not an experienced Player.

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

The frustration to which you refer is entirely subjective.

an opinion is Always subjective.

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

This is purely opinion.  Please try to separate your personal opinion from fact.

not only should it be obvious that my comment is an opinion, i also specificly said in my first sentence that it is an opinion, just in case that someone like you would not be able to understand it. please try to seperate your personal inability to understand the subject of an opinion from an Argument or discussion.

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

You fail to provide the groundwork for your comparison between The Long Dark and "other Survival games"...

how dare i not to provide every single piece of evidence when i make a Claim!!!! the funniest Thing About These discussions is to watch how People come up with hilarious Statements as soon as they run out of valid arguments^^ 

please let me know if you still would like to see a list of "other Survival games" that provide their Players the opportunity to customize their gameplay experience. spoiler alert: almost all of them do in a certain way, which is exactly what Hinterland realized and why they also implemented custom mode

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

Sorry to hear about your personal frustrations.  Please keep in mind that they are personal and not shared by everyone.

again: opinion --> personal, and personal opinions are not shared by everyone. instead of trying to cut of other peoples opinions you should learn how to engage in a discussion and come up with valid Arguments instead of making useless and timewasting Statements.

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

Yes, it's frustrating that The Long Dark was produced and developed by a small, independent studio and not a giant gaming behemoth like EA or Activision/Blizzard.  But just think, were the opposite the case, the game likely would likely either 1) never see any updates, or 2) any updated would come in the form of obscenely expensive loot boxes.  Be careful what you wish for.

that would be perfect, Maybe that way i would be able to buy a loot box that lets me customize my gameplay experienced so i can enjoy the game again, instead of having a game where i dont pay for updates but unfortunately being part of the playerbase the developers dont really care About, ups i mean prioritize^^

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

The Long Dark was released in August of 2017.  Since that time, Hinterland hasn't released a single pay-to-play update.  Every single thing they've done to improve the original game has been released for free.  Your lack of appreciation for the free updates that have been released is remarkable.

again, I would rather pay for updates than being able to Play a game for free that Fails to provide interesting and enjoyable game Play for ME.

your lack of undertsnading criticsm and accpeting the opinion of other People is remarkable aswell.

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

Perhaps they had other priorities.  You do not run Hinterland.  You have not seen the totality of the feedback they've received from their customers.

no, but i know the Feedback of experienced Players which have basically been ignored in the last years and will be continue to be ignored in the future, because instead of focussing on the improvement of aspects of the game which improve the gameplay experience for every Player, the priotity seems to improve aspects that only Benefit a certain part of the palyerbase

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

See above re: opinion.

see above re: opinion.

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

You mean like Forlorn Muskeg, Hushed River Valley, Interloper, and the ability to customize the game to be even more difficult than Interloper?  Is that the Nothing to which you refer?

see above: custom mode does not provide any more challenging gameplay than interloper for experienced Players.

new zones alone dont provide any substantial amount of playability or replayability for experienced Players, due to the lack of fundamental improvements

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

I appreciate your belated admission of opinion, but the "evident lack of interest/competence" is, again, demonstrably false. 

People are asking/waiting for years in the Forum for some fundamental changes that also affect the replayabilty and challenge of the game, therefore it is not false.

the inability to provide relatively simple changes to the game, which would improve fundamental issues with certain aspects of the game, such as Long-term playability, replayability and challenging gameplay experience is certainly a lack of competence for me.

you have to learn and understand that just because you have a different opinion it doesnt mean that other opinions are fals, esp. you should Refrain from using "demonstrably" false since it is easy to prove that is is not false at all, and rather a difference between opinions.

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

Hinterland could well have released the game, shut down all development in favor of a paid sequel or released the updates they've made as minor paid updates, or together as a paid DLC, and virtually no one would have batted an eye as this would conform to SOP in the gaming industry.  Instead, they've worked for a year-and-a-half, financially unrewarded, to make this game better because they (and this is my opinion) clearly love and take great pride in their product.  They've been rewarded with a rabid fanbase and widespread acknowledgement that their product is, and has continued to be, the height of accomplishment in its genre.

i also do think that the developers love and take great pride in their product, but i also think that the developers are Setting wrong priorities and the game is not nearly using half of its potential.

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:08 PM, Sunwolf said:

While I appreciate your opinion of the game, and you're certainly entitled to it, you base your criticism on things that are entirely subjective or are demonstrably false.  Personally, while there are things about the game that have, and continue to drive me nuts (the immersion-killing, brightly-lit breath effect even when no light sources exist, for example), I choose to focus on the fact that I paid less than $20 (black friday sale) for a game I've played in excess of 600 hours and will likely play hundreds more.  Because of this, I can only either hope you find something else that holds your interest, or write you off as a troll.

again, you should really take a Moment and try to understand the subject of an opinion, which is Always subject, and not necessarly false, just because you dont agree with it,  because it is really difficult to engage in a constuctive Argument with someone who does not really seem to understand that fundamental aspect and and tries to label everything as demonstrably false just because it does not represent your own opinion/Point of view.

my base criticism on Things is all About the perspective of someone who represents the relatively small part of playerbase who are very experienced at the game and reached a Point where they are not able to enjoy the game anymore because of the lack of fundamental aspects like Long-term playability, replayabiltiy, customization and lack of challenge. that doesnt mean that we dont care, in fact we care a lot, that is exactly why some People try to express their criticism in order to make the developers Aware of These Things and in the hope that Things get better in the future. trust me, i liked this game a lot and i would like to be able to enjoy playing it again, but at the Moment this is not possible, therefor my Frustration with the recent update which was labeled as Survival mode update but did not provide any fundamental improvements.

the General Feedback of the game Shows that the developers are doing a fantastic Job providing a very good gameplay experience for more causal Players, but on the other Hand there is also a part of the Player base that feels ignored. and as i said many times, i think it is totally possible to improve the game in a more fundamental way that Benefits all plyaaers instead of just improving the gameplay experience for parts of the community. after all, all i am asking for and trying to promote is a more customizable gameplay experience where every Player haas at least the opportunity to Play and enjoy the game how they personally would like to, and i think that is something everyone should accept and support.

Hinterland can choose if they take such Feedback serious or they can just ignore it. as for me, i am done with this game now. for years i am waiting for substantial changes and improvements for experienced Players, but the recent update has shown to me that even an update labeled as "suvival mode update" will not provide any of These changes and it would just take at least another couple of years for the game to reach that Point. and already waiting for that Long, i am not interested to spend any more effort into this game, not by playing it and not by coming to the Forums and engaging in Arguments how to improve the game or detailing how to improve the game in the wish list section. i just came here one last time to respond to some comments and this was my last time visiting the Forums, and unfortunately the last time i had TLD installed in my Computer. all i can do is hope that other experienced Players have some better gameplay experience in the future due to my effort of putting some Attention to that subject.
that being said, good bye everyone

[Looper]

Ben91 - take it easy. Prove your not a troll. Let it go.

[Admin]

2 hours ago, ben91 said:

i think you underestimate the value of Survival mode, like i said, it is not the Story mode that keeps Players interested in the game in the Long term, it is the technically indefinite replayability of the Survival mode that keeps People interested and able to enjoy the game. what do you think what happens after they fully released the entire Story mode? peolpe wont come back and Play Story mode over and over, no it is the Survival mode that will do that. and Hinterland will more and more realize that and start working more on Survival mode. but according to the current pace, this will take a couple more years.

 

 

We continue to work on both WINTERMUTE and the Survival Mode. That work goes on at the same time and as our team expands and grows will produce more gaming enjoyment for anyone who likes The Long Dark. Whether you like or value what we include in our regular and free content updates for Survival Mode is a matter of your own preference and taste.

I don’t believe it’s fair to call the STEADFAST RANGER Update a joke, if the additions and refinements are not to your taste, again that’s fair enough but it’s things that we believe make for a better overall experience.

Leaving feedback is appreciated and helps us know what it is that the most connected and engaged players want to see from The Long Dark, but it’s also not a guarantee that we’re going to act on any suggestion in particular. We appreciate that it’s frustrating to believe that you know the exact way that we should develop our game and not feel listened to. However we have our own ideas, goals and plans. Hopefully you’ll like what we’re working towards. 

Given that this thread has been going on awhile and hasn’t really developed beyond the initial feedback it should either get more productive (and less argumentative) or we’ll close it.

Thanks.

[Admin]

Closing thread as there’s not been movement on it and everyone has had a chance to say their piece.