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Dev Diary - March 2019

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MrJade said:

Honestly, this is pretty hilarious. I backed this game how many years ago? It's been a year since I've posted here and there still hasn't been Episode III released when I said it wouldn't! People said I was crazy, and yet, still nothing. On to 2021!

I have never seen anything as mismanaged and poorly communicated as here. I spent $60 years ago to get a game that it looks like I never will.

You need to cool down, friend. Nobody forced you to back this game when you did. And you did get some rewards out of it, things that us, non backers, can never get. That said, your opinion is surely welcomed, but I hope you will listen to the reason behind why some of these decisions you disagree with were made, as well. Also, before I proceed - please undertand that I have nothing against you, I do not hate you and I certainly do not wish to insult you in any way. If my response angers you, I apologize. I do not wish to argue, and if you want to respond to my comment, go ahead, but if it is going to be heated, please send it directly to my inbox via private message - we dont want to upset anyone else. What I wrote below comes from facts and observations I got as a member of this community for over 5 years, who has been very active in here, and who followed the goings of this studio for a very long time.
 

It is unfair to say that this game is mismanaged or poorly communicated. In fact, the opposite is true - the game has been well managed and planned so far, all things considering. Despite having to constantly battle with things that stacked the odds against them, Hinterland seems to prosper still. The game is being done slowly, nobody is denying that - but if one compared the earliest Alpha versions to how the game looks now, the amount of content added into it since then outweights the amount of content one would expect from an entirely new game. The developers also pay extremely close attention to what the players are saying, if those players can keep respectful approach and constructivity. Insults never get anyone anywhere in here - believe me, I know from personal experience, as insults were the reason I got myself banned here for 8 months. And absolutedly everything that has ever made it into the game so far have came from community suggestions and ideas, which were sometimes repeated many times over (which indicates that a huge amount of players wished for them, and such ideas are the ones you want to focus on, if you want to keep your customers happy, as a businessman would say).

The game is not just about the story mode, in fact, you could say its major aspect is Sandbox. Back when Hinterland worked hard on first two episodes of Story mode, other backers used to complain about the lack of Sandbox updates. Right now, they are trying to fulfil their obligations to this part of their gaming community. And once some more content for the sandbox comes out, they will put in full attention to Story mode once again. At least this is how it worked in the past. Now, the studio is much bigger, and as far as I know, there are two teams, that separatedly work on both Sandbox and story mode. That said, I imagine most of the personal fluctuates in between these two teams based on the neccesity.

The only reason why all the content that comes out in this game is of such high quality is because of how well this studio is managed, despite always having very limited resources. 

Lots of people used to complain, for example, about the lack of animations in the game. Which is understandable... but little did they know that it was because Hinterland, being the small indie studio it is, did not have the equipment neccesary to make these animations, and did not have the appropriate animator personel, either. They were forced to adjust their work on animations to the schedule of a recording studio, where they rented and recorded the movements, neccesary for said animations.

Now, there are much more animations coming into the game then in the past. This is because Hinterland was able to hire more animators, and obtained their very own equipment. 

Hinterland is managed far better then any other gaming company I know of, including the AAA studios. And I know what I am talking about because I have been following the steps of Mr. van Lierop for years, now. I am a student of management sciences and there is a lot to be learned from his business model.

Also note how the game barely changed in price over the several years of coming out. Yet, for some reason, the Hinterland studio seems to only do better and better, without having to increase the price. This shows that this game is still in the production stage known as "milking cow" in economical terms - a product that is on the top in its life cycle, where it produces most money to the company that creates it without the neccesity to adjust price or marketing strategies. Meanwhile, Hinterland keeps hiring new personal and expanding its team as the studio grows. 

We have to remember that as individuals, our voices and opinions count as one, and one voice gets lost in the sea of other voices. If you want to be heard, collect other likeminded players and organize your thoughts together with them, then have them back you up. Do so respectfully, and you are guaranteed to be heard in here. But just because you backed the game some years ago does not grant you some special priviledge to the rest of us players. 

Edited by Mroz4k
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Posted (edited)

I find Mr Jade's negative comments very, surprising and very, very unfair.

 

I am an old IT guy and I have played a great many games over decades.  I am retired so have lots of time to spend trying and playing games.  I regard TLD as the best game I have encountered.  It has many minor bugs and it doesn't have state-of-the-art graphics.  Those issues are very small issues. The game-play psychology is the best I have come across.  When I play this game, and I have played well over 2,000 game days at the Voyager - Stalker level, I am constantly amazed to find how carefully, and accurately, the game creates an illusion of reality. 

 

I could write a book on the seriously good aspects of the game, but I suspect that Mr Jade's expectations, enjoyment and challenges of a simulation of survival in a harsh environment are very different to mine, therefore my words would be wasted.  

 

I haven't had to survive in the severe wintry wastes of Canada, although I have read books about the hardships of the early explorers, but many times I have been out in hills in nasty conditions, and TLD re-creates the desperate need to find shelter when you are tired and cold and in the middle of nowhere.

 

For me, TLD, for all its development problems, is the greatest game ever.

 

Edited by peteloud
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7 hours ago, peteloud said:

For me, TLD, for all its development problems, is the greatest game ever.

 

Well said! I only have a few other games that I would consider "favorites", games I have been a fan of for many years... but no game has truly intrigued me or gripped me quite like TLD! 

Also I mentioned earlier about Hinterland taking their hard earned money and going back to do the redux, that had to have been a tough decision for them... they could have caused people to be angry, and they could have lost out on a lot of their money... but in the end I think they succeeded, and I truly believe they made the BEST decision ever! I applaud them deeply for making that tough decision! Yes people are definitely upset to not see Episode 3, but I am not one of them. Of course I want to play Episode 3, but I am more than willing to wait for it, I want it to be made right, I don't want something rushed out that is no good. Patience is definitely a virtue when it comes to games, anything rushed usually comes out buggy.

Sadly even if Hinterland did rush out Episode 3 without taking their time on it, someone would complain, I feel like poor Hinterland can't win for losing and that's just not fair. We really all need to gather around Hinterland and give them our support, give them a chance and be patient. ❤️ :) Just have faith in them and that they can deliver, they already have proven me they can deliver by just going back and doing the redux. They have truly made the game amazing, it has really come far since the beginning, with each update it gets better and better. I am glad they chose the redux over Episode 3, because now I know Episode 3 will be even better than it ever was intended to be. 

Lastly I must say I found this game around 2016 maybe? sadly I wasn't able to find it when it first came out, I wish I would have because I would have gladly backed it! I would back it and never expect anything extra, I would do such just because the game brings me joy! Hear me out, I absolutely love the Story Mode, but I think Survival is where it's at! I love the Sandboxy aspect of it all. So for those who are angry because Episode 3 etc. etc. has not dropped yet, keep playing Survival Mode, be patient, and give Hinterland a chance! These guys were indies, they probably most definitely didn't have loads of cash to make this game, if they did they wouldn't have needed backers. It's definitely not easy to make a game I'd say, and these things take time especially with a smaller team, and only here lately has Hinterland been getting more help etc. Also be prepared to see even better this year! the Revolver is coming along with more Items - woot woot! 

Love ya Hinterland ❤️

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Posted (edited)
On 3/30/2019 at 4:05 AM, earthy said:
 

I never understood this argument. You paid full price for a game, and you received 2/5ths of a game after years of waiting.  Sure, they updated that 2/5th of a game a few times, but it's still only 2/5th of what we paid for and expect. It doesn't matter how many times it's remastered, expecting people to be satisfied with 2/5th of what they paid for is silly.

 It's not an argument, it's a rationale. I paid for an early access game some time ago now and implicit in that agreement was that future development was somewhat ambiguous as was the timeline, an agreement to which I willingly submitted and have been more than satisfied with the product since that time. Besides, I wanted and bought survival mode; story mode is very cool, but that's not what I play and not why I paid.

 When you bought the game, did you see any long-term timeline announcements? Were you deceived in this somehow? No, you weren't and no, there were no concrete deadlines announced, so while I somewhat understand your being disappointed if you bought in later and only for story mode, but you bought in with the ambiguous timeline in place, so...what's the problem again?

 Finally, if you think Episode 3 is coming for free, I suspect that you'll be further disappointed. I expect HL to start thinking about not being a charity anymore; we've all gotten our more than money's worth between Ep. 1 & 2 and all of the survival mode content we've received and I for one will be happy to pay more for future content.

TLD is currently an amazing, one-of-a-kind game and more than worth the money, even if there were no more episodes to come.

Edited by Carbon
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4 hours ago, Carbon said:

 Finally, if you think Episode 3 is coming for free, I suspect that you'll be further disappointed. I expect HL to start thinking about not being a charity anymore; we've all gotten our more than money's worth between Ep. 1 & 2 and all of the survival mode content we've received and I for one will be happy to pay more for future content.

Even though this is the kind of business decision I would expect and even endorse, Im afraid it is not that way. As a matter of fact, when you buy the game, the price includes all the episodes from 1 to 5. This is just another example of how efficiently must Hinterland run for them to be able to prosper on the base cost of the game alone, along with some premium merch for sale, of course. But the store on Steam underlines this fact quite distinctly - the game includes all 5 episodes of Story mode in its price, and the players will be able to play these other episodes for free with the basic game as soon as these episodes come out.

Even though I would encourage the idea of having other episodes be paid for, doing so now, after it was explicitly stated that they will be free, is no longer possible. Trying to make them paid for now would ruin Hinterland reputation. 
 

Besides, it would not be very kosher - as this would directly damage those that wish to play the story mode above the Sandbox - the Sandbox players could enjoy the game for basic price, the story mode players would have to pay extra to get the experience they wanted. 

That said, I have a very nice idea that Hinterland could use if they were interested - a way to get a little bit more monetary support out of it. The basic idea would be that upon completion of the new story mode episode, fans would be given a choice to give a little tip to the developers if they enjoyed playing it, in a form of some small, tokenish donation. Which would be completely voluntary.

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2 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

That said, I have a very nice idea that Hinterland could use if they were interested - a way to get a little bit more monetary support out of it. The basic idea would be that upon completion of the new story mode episode, fans would be given a choice to give a little tip to the developers if they enjoyed playing it, in a form of some small, tokenish donation. Which would be completely voluntary.

That sounds like a good idea to me. 👍

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7 hours ago, Carbon said:

Finally, if you think Episode 3 is coming for free, I suspect that you'll be further disappointed. I expect HL to start thinking about not being a charity anymore; we've all gotten our more than money's worth between Ep. 1 & 2 and all of the survival mode content we've received and I for one will be happy to pay more for future content.

TLD is currently an amazing, one-of-a-kind game and more than worth the money, even if there were no more episodes to come.

I believe Episode 1-5 are included in the original purchase price, but I do believe any future Episodes / Seasons / whatever will not be included, we will probably have to pay for those which I would gladly do. :) The amount I paid for TLD was totally worth it, even if the game never even had a Story Mode, if it only had Survival I would still say it was well worth it. 

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12 hours ago, Carbon said:

 

 When you bought the game, did you see any long-term timeline announcements? Were you deceived in this somehow?

Yes, I was. I wasn't feeling philanthropic, looking to support some developers dream. I was browsing steam for a game to play, and The Long Dark was right there on the front page. I skimmed through the page, purchased it, and only after finishing episode 2 did I realize it wasn't even a full game. Looking back at the steam page, the fact that the game isn't complete isn't even mentioned unless you hit "Read more" and fully expand the page. I suppose i'm still stuck in the past, where people advertising a story driven game actually give you a full story in a reasonable timeframe. Honestly it just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, similar to GRRM and the Winds of Winter. Will he finish the series and release the books before he dies? Probably not. Will Hinterland fulfill their commitment to my purchase before the graphics on this game are 10-15 years out of date and I have zero desire to play it anymore? Also probably not, but one can hope.

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Posted (edited)

@earthy I am sorry, I mean no disrespect... but I just don't see how you were deceived? You bought the game knowing full too well it was an episodic game, and even if Hinterland had released all 5 Episodes, that still does not mean the game would be finished. There could be a lot more episodes / seasons / whatever to come, I have to kindly suggest you just be patient. 

As for the graphics ever being aged, you're in luck... usually cartoony or artistic graphics don't age as bad / ugly as realistic graphics, that is a proven fact. So I have absolutely 0 worries of this game aging bad, heck even if it did age bad to some people standards that wouldn't bother me personally because I still play old OLD games. 

Episode 3 will more than likely be out this year, so you shouldn't have to wait long. I have mentioned this many times it seems now... but I will again; I would much rather Hinterland takes their time (however long that takes) to make something amazing, than for them to rush something out and it be a buggy awful mess. As an avid gamer, I have played quite a few games and I have seen what happens when devs rush stuff, it never turns out pretty. Sadly this is exactly what's happening to one of my favorite game franchise (The Sims), the first 3 were amazing, this 4th one just seems rushed and half baked. Moral of the story, patience is a virtue. Yes it can be frustrating and hard to be patient especially with an amazing game like TLD, but all you can do is WAIT. No amount of whining will change things, so my best advice other than to be patient is to play Survival some more. 

Lastly the game is only like $30, that's really not a lot considering the price of games now, so it's not like you are really losing much... You could easily spend that at Chick fil a for food that once eaten it's gone, whereas with this game it's FOREVER yours! 

Oh I should add; If you can't wait, and you are not the patient type... then my other advice is to avoid buying episodic games from now on, because again that's just how those types of games work. You just never know when the Episodes will be released, it could take weeks, months, and sometimes years. 

To be honest I do want to see the other Episodes I won't lie, but even if I don't see them for awhile I am fine playing Survival, because Survival is where it's at! 

EDIT: Forgot to mention; The other Episodes aren't released yet too because Hinterland had to make the tough decision to take all of their hard - earned cash and go back to better the first two Episodes. They could have literally left it the way it was and rushed out Episode 3, but I am glad they didn't. The Redux in my humble opinion truly changed things for the better! and I do know that because I played the Episodes before they were changed, and I love the changes a whole lot better now! So that's why you are having to wait for Episode 3 and so on. 

I can't name one company that has ever taken their earnings and went back to better their product for their fans, even The Sims has never ever done that! So I absolutely applaud Hinterland, and I know in my heart that they will be payed back tremendously for that and they deserve it! ❤️ 

So you should be grateful for that... I know I am. 

Edited by kristaok

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14 hours ago, earthy said:

Yes, I was. I wasn't feeling philanthropic, looking to support some developers dream. I was browsing steam for a game to play, and The Long Dark was right there on the front page. I skimmed through the page, purchased it, and only after finishing episode 2 did I realize it wasn't even a full game. Looking back at the steam page, the fact that the game isn't complete isn't even mentioned unless you hit "Read more" and fully expand the page. I suppose i'm still stuck in the past, where people advertising a story driven game actually give you a full story in a reasonable timeframe. Honestly it just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, similar to GRRM and the Winds of Winter. Will he finish the series and release the books before he dies? Probably not. Will Hinterland fulfill their commitment to my purchase before the graphics on this game are 10-15 years out of date and I have zero desire to play it anymore? Also probably not, but one can hope.

Here's the store page I see, where it clearly says that the episodes will be released when finished. Too bad you didn't take the time to click "read more" in the "about this game" section. :)

 

Long Dark Store Page.jpg

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Waiting is to be expected for any Episodic type game, it kind of comes with the territory...  It is what, it is... all we can do now is wait. 

I have full faith in Hinterland that they can and will deliver, just look at what good they did for the Redux. 

No sense in complaining especially in this thread where the first post says Episode 3 is coming, they are working hard on it, and they are going to be adding more things. 

So yea instead of complaining, it's time to be excited! I know I am! I can't wait to get my hands on that Revolver! yeeehaw! :P

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, earthy said:

I skimmed through the page, purchased it, and only after finishing episode 2 did I realize it wasn't even a full game.

Not to sound sarcastic or devious, but is it the fault of the studio, or your own, that you skimmed through the page, bought it, without taking the time to read through it carefully? If you signed a legal contract without reading it first, you would bound by its content, whether you read it or not as well. And buying something is in a way a legal contract, too. 
The game is full as of right now. It was out of beta for a long time now. What is not complete is the episodic "campaign". Considering the game was out in alpha for over three years before the first two episodes came out, you can't really judge the readiness of the game based on the status of Story mode alone. While it is a substantial part of the game now, it is only a part of the game.

The game is full, it is finished (although a game like this never really is finished till its replaced, as this is a flagship product of Hinterland, they will keep adding more and more content as long as people keep playing and buying it). The fact that you bought the game, expecting full story mode when only 2 episodes were out is no one's fault but your own. 

23 hours ago, earthy said:

Will Hinterland fulfill their commitment to my purchase before the graphics on this game are 10-15 years out of date and I have zero desire to play it anymore? Also probably not, but one can hope

Since the release of that video, actually, the graphics have changed a bit once more, (I think, at least). So you really neednt worry there. 
In fact, had to get a better machine when the update came up. Dont doubt these graphics in the game as archaic. They are that way on purpose - gives the game its unique feeling, too. 

I know if you want to complain, you can always find a reason why, and I will admit that this game or studio has avenues where it could be improved a bit. Nothing is perfect. That said, Hinterland has done a stellar job so far, and I have faith they will do so in the future as well. And I for one dont mind waiting, even years, if the result in the end is worth the wait.

Edited by Mroz4k
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7 hours ago, Carbon said:

Here's the store page I see, where it clearly says that the episodes will be released when finished. Too bad you didn't take the time to click "read more" in the "about this game" section. :)

 

You're right, I should have read that. That would have saved me some grief in the short term, but it still wouldn't change where we are now. If I had seen that and still purchased the game, I would be in the same scenario I am now, waiting endlessly for an episode that keeps being delayed. The best analogy I can give you is imagine you order a 5 course meal for your wedding. An hour into the reception, the first 2 courses of appetizers are brought out. While you found them tolerable, some people thought they were too salty. Instead of writing it off and moving on to the entree's, the cooks decide they want to redeem themselves, and so they announce that they will be remaking appetizers for everyone. In the meantime, they update the salad bar a few times. After 2 more hours, they bring out new appetizers for everyone. They're better than before to be sure, but it's now 3 hours into the reception, and no one wants to wait around any longer for their entree's or desert. You could argue "the cook's never guaranteed a delivery time for each meal. it's their choice to take their time and put out a product they're proud of", which might technically be true, but the guests still feel cheated at this point. They've paid for a 5 course meal, and after waiting for a more than reasonable amount of time they've only been served appetizers, Redux appetizers, and some salad bar updates that they didn't even care about.

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Posted (edited)

@earthy Your comparison don't apply to this though, because TLD is an Episodic game... it's not like ordering an appetizer for a wedding reception where you're guaranteed to receive the food for the wedding. Episodic games don't work like that. 

Like I said previously with these types of games you're never promised a full on deadline. The Episodes could take weeks, months, or even years. That's just simply how it is. 

Im sorry you somehow feel cheated, the game is literally only $30 bucks now and that's cheap compared to most other games. 

Also the Story Mode doesn't make up the whole game, id go out on a limb and wager that the fan favorite as of currently IS the Survival Mode. 

Either way Episode 3 IS coming, BE PATIENT. 

Yes I get that you wanted Episode 3 faster, and you may not like how Hinterland chose to do the Redux... but they did, and I'm glad they did. 

Heck even if your comparison were true, I never was one for rushing anyone or complaining to anyone over food... I wouldn't want to risk more than too salty / burnt / or whatever food if you catch my drift. 

Again, no amount of moping around will change that Hinterland has decided to take their time and do Episode 3 right. After all after the Redux and updates to the code or whatever the devs do now these days, they more than likely had to rewrite / redo a lot of Episode 3 to better fit Episode 1 & 2. 

So yea I don't see how you were duped, you willingly purchased the game knowing full too well that it was an Episodic game. Maybe avoid buying these types of games if waiting isn't your strong suit? 

@Mroz4k I remember the 2016 version hehe, it's changed a lot since then hasn't it!? :)

Edited by kristaok

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42 minutes ago, kristaok said:

I remember the 2016 version hehe, it's changed a lot since then hasn't it!? :)

Indeed it has, even more so since 2014 :D Gone are the days when my entire world comprised of Mystery lake, when rifle could be fixed with scrap metal and fir firewood, when I would forage for wood inside the shack by the lake under Trappers cabin for 8 hours every day, butt naked to conserve the condition of my clothes... or when deer hunting using flares was the only way to survive past day 50 :D 

This is why the content within the game far exceeds my expectations, even if it comes out fairly slowly over the years. And also probably why we understand this while most of the newer players may not... because we have seen the game way back then and can compare to what it is now :) 

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3 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

Indeed it has, even more so since 2014 :D Gone are the days when my entire world comprised of Mystery lake, when rifle could be fixed with scrap metal and fir firewood, when I would forage for wood inside the shack by the lake under Trappers cabin for 8 hours every day, butt naked to conserve the condition of my clothes... or when deer hunting using flares was the only way to survive past day 50 :D 

This is why the content within the game far exceeds my expectations, even if it comes out fairly slowly over the years. And also probably why we understand this while most of the newer players may not... because we have seen the game way back then and can compare to what it is now :) 

It truly has gotten a WHOLE lot better! I can't wait to see what the future has in store! :D

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Here's a video of Squirrel playing TLD back in 2014.

It sure has changed a lot since then. B|

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2 hours ago, kristaok said:

It truly has gotten a WHOLE lot better! I can't wait to see what the future has in store! :D

The development trajectory of TLD is a testament to good iterative development.  You can see the rough-out of many concepts we have today.  Even the assets look similar, just not finished.  But the idea is already there.

It really does amaze me that they didn't stop much earlier on and just say, "meh, good enough."

Hinterland, thanks for polishing the stone; it's so pretty.

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Posted (edited)

@Hawk I only played it around 2016, so I never played it when it first came out... it's crazy to see just how far TLD has come, and it sure has come a LONG way! :) -- Thanks for the video! 

EDIT: 

@NardoLoopa Yea, they could have stopped perfecting it long ago and just rushed the Episodes out, but they didn't... and for that I thank them from the bottom of my heart ❤️ ... Thanks Hinterland! 

Edited by kristaok

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Ok i know you dont want to give oh this will be out on this day time of eta but is there anychance you can tell us if you are like 60% done with the stuff. that wont be an eta or anything and will prob settle most people down knowing how far along you are with the update.

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Posted (edited)

@TheUnknown I doubt they will even tell us that because of what happened surrounding missing deadlines etc. I guess it will either be out later this year or early next year. So 2020 at the latest, but I am not a part of the dev team so this is just a rough guess. 

Either way when it does arrive I can guarantee it's going to be AWESOME! I can't wait to play the game through the eyes of Astrid. 

Edited by kristaok

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@kristaok Ya i know. Im just hyper for the update. like you i also cant wait.  cant wait to see how our choices pan out later in the game. What we did at the farm how that choice will come back to bite us or not. If we stocked up grey mother or not and finding out she lives because of it or dies because we didnt fill up her food or wood. i am just gitty about it all. even more so to see this astrid chapter. The wait is making me pull out what little hair i have left on my head.

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@TheUnknown Yea exactly I want to know what consequences I will be facing for that particular situation lol. 

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6 hours ago, kristaok said:

@Hawk I only played it around 2016, so I never played it when it first came out... it's crazy to see just how far TLD has come, and it sure has come a LONG way! :) -- Thanks for the video!

I didn't start playing until June of '17, but even from then, I can see a lot of changes. That video from Squirrel really showed me the improvements though.

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@Hawk With this sort of path, the next couple of years will be amazing! :D It just keeps getting better and better!

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