Increase meat harvested from animals (plus a few hunger mechanic ideas)

[Maehlice]

I don't think Hinterland wants us going into hibernation.  They've already added two different mechanics against it (Cabin Fever & Well Fed).  Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough calories in the game to stay Well Fed.  (EDIT:  .. in Stalker/Interloper.)

The area where I think more calories need to be added is in animal harvesting, because based on meat yield, deer in TLD are barely the size of a fawn.

Look up images of "Canadian Mule Deer"; even an untrained eye can tell you that's more than 10 kg of meat.  (A quick Google search says a mule deer buck weighs 55-150 kg.)

--

On a similar note, I also think this would have to coincide with changes to the hunger mechanics, because if deer yielded 30 kg of meat in the current system, hibernation would be downright simple.  A few ideas:

• Tie carrying capacity directly to hunger.  (As soon as you're in the red, so is your carrying capacity.)
• Reduce condition based on calorie deficit instead of at a fixed rate.
• Increase carcass yield according to the Harvesting skill.

[U47]

As a player that has started playing Stalker difficulty, I feel there is more than enough calories in the form of wolves, you just have to cook everyone of them you euthanize and get cooking to 5 so you can eat those wolf and bear steaks.

My current run is at 76 days with 56 wolves killed, cooked and ate with the well fed buff the entire time since day 15 or so.

I don't even kill deer or rabbits unless I need skins for repairs.

[codfish107]

I did have calorie troubles when i started my current Stalker game in PV; out of packaged food, no moose, rabbit and fish didn't seem worth it, had troubles getting dear, and i would only eat just enough predetor meat so i wouldn't starve at night (to reduce parasites, which i still got twice). Afterwards calories weren't an issue when i moved into ML, then Ch, and now in DP.

I'm all for more hunger mechanic stuff but there has to be game balance and some realism at the same time.

I think current harvest yields are fine, in Stalker i am rarely ever fully harvesting any animal other than rabbits and doing fine on calories. Carry capacity tied to hunger and having hunger being more punishing is where it doesn't make much realism sense, especially since the calorie burn rate is already stupid high. You can march on an empty stomach but not when you are literally falling asleep as you move and hunger is already more deadly than it is in real life, in game you can survive close to 5 days compared to the potentially 14 days in real life.

Again i like the idea of adding more food/hunger related stuff but it needs to strike the balance of realism, game practicality, and just overall game balance.

This was my idea for it before the redux and i had even asked got answered in the Milton Mailbag about it.

" Yes. But I don't want to get too crazy with it, as I'm not sure hardcore nutrition simulation is really right for this game. I do think we can do more than we currently are, for sure."

 

[Maehlice]

When I play on Stalker now, calories aren't a problem.  But, I remember for a long time they were.  It wasn't until I started playing Interloper and applying lessons learned there that Stalker became easy.

For most^(?) people, though, Stalker is anything but "easy".

So, I guess maybe Stalker is in a good place.  (However, I would still be all for a reduction in the proliferation of processed foods in favour of increased meat yields.)

 

In Interloper, though, the lack of processed foods and weapon spawns make being Well Fed impossible in the early game -- at least for me.  Even in the mid-late game, consuming 4k+ calories a day equates to daily wolf kills and/or a deer kill every 3 days.  As the game presses on, I'm not sure they even spawn that frequently.  Plus, you'd eventually exhaust every birch sapling and run out of arrows.

I'd love to hear from a seasoned 'loper on this, because I've never made it to the super late game.

 

I definitely don't think hunger mechanics need to get more difficult without something else changing.  I just think if more calories are introduced, something else would need to change to help balance it out.  Since they've already somewhat tied hunger to carrying capacity via the Well Fed bonus, my mind goes there first.

 

 

[odizzido]

Even with all wildlife at minimum I still find I swim in meat. Of course this is with calorie burn on low but I find animal consumption to be ridiculous as it is. Eating a whole bear in a few weeks is laughable.

I would love to cut animal spawns down to like 10-20% of what they are right now. Maybe more, but also increase the amount of meat they drop. I would like to try it at least, but I suspect this will be left up to modding.

Having some tracking in the game might work well if the game were set up this way. Following that rare deer for a lot of food would make the hunt more meaningful and the kill more important. Right now meat literally walks to your door.

[UpUpAway95]

48 minutes ago, odizzido said:

Even with all wildlife at minimum I still find I swim in meat. Of course this is with calorie burn on low but I find animal consumption to be ridiculous as it is. Eating a whole bear in a few weeks is laughable.

I would love to cut animal spawns down to like 10-20% of what they are right now. Maybe more, but also increase the amount of meat they drop. I would like to try it at least, but I suspect this will be left up to modding.

Having some tracking in the game might work well if the game were set up this way. Following that rare deer for a lot of food would make the hunt more meaningful and the kill more important. Right now meat literally walks to your door.

I wouldn't change it in the standard modes (where there are some people playing who are just learning the game and might need higher animal spawns to practice).,  Also, by having the smaller amounts of meat available from each kill, encourages the player to also practice by killing more animals.

I would, perhaps, add a super low deer and rabbit spawn custom setting along with a custom setting to increase the amounts of meat that can be taken from freshly killed carcasses only.  In my mind, the more variations that go into the custom settings the better since this allows players (as they become more experienced) to tweak their own games to suit themselves without impacting on people who are just new to the game.

[odizzido]

yes I very much meant as a custom setting. I know I tend to be very hardcore compared to most people.

[Kendov]

On my current stalker run, I haven't hit 0cal since day 1. grabbed the Well Fed asap. Meat is never a problem, I always have a few stacks of that outside my current shelter wherever. An advice I heard from someone who was actually at more than 400 days, if you really have trouble later because you can't hund due to a lack of arrows/bows/ammo, eat rabbits. his example on an interloper game was the hunting cabin in ML, and just spam traps in the backyard. there are plenty of shelters which spawn rabbits nearby, another example is the cave at the top of the mountain near the lake (well, there are actually two spots of this description, in opposite directions). they don't have much in terms of meat, but with a dozen or more traps you can still always get your daily meals and then some.

[codfish107]

3 hours ago, Kendov said:

eat rabbits

yeah i have noticed interlopers will focus on rabbits in the early game before they can get bow and arrows and when they can't find anything else.

[thefistoffury1]

On 13/1/2019 at 8:49 PM, Maehlice said:

I don't think Hinterland wants us going into hibernation.  They've already added two different mechanics against it (Cabin Fever & Well Fed).  Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough calories in the game to stay Well Fed.  (EDIT:  .. in Stalker/Interloper.)

The area where I think more calories need to be added is in animal harvesting, because based on meat yield, deer in TLD are barely the size of a fawn.

Look up images of "Canadian Mule Deer"; even an untrained eye can tell you that's more than 10 kg of meat.  (A quick Google search says a mule deer buck weighs 55-150 kg.)

From my personal experience, even on the highest difficulties (I have a custom run atm with Interloper as a base but pushed further to the extreme), even with max hunger rate that would make you need over 3000 calories on a busy day (exploring a large map, running, maybe a bit climbing ropes), it would be way too easy to have deer with real-life meat capacity, since one deer would keep you fed for weeks. If the deer weights from 50 to 150 kg, that would mean (based on a Google Search) slightly less than that would be lean boneless meat (like the steaks you see in game). That's 20-70 kg of meat, and if it's 900 calories per steak (TLD wikia), one deer alone would keep you fed for nearly a week of constantly running, climbing and scavenging at the LEAST (remember, hunger set to very high), and for over 3 times that (21 days) at the best. One deer. One well placed shot. Hell, even if it runs away, it still dies.

The entire balance of the game goes out of whack. Not to mention that there are even heavier deer, which would make the game more realistic, but the player would have it way too easy. Sneaking up on a deer and shooting it/firing an arrow literally anywhere on its body will give you many days of burning maximum calories and being fully fed.

Try the hibernation technique? Well that means you need one deer steak per day (max hunger needs 900 calories for 12 hours of sleep). 20-70 DAYS of survival. Hungry all day, but still. If you sleep less than 12 hrs OR don't run all day, those numbers stretch further.

The one thing I can get behind is a meat yield bonus for the last two levels of carcass harvesting. Level 4: Carcasses yield +5% meat , Level 5: Carcasses yield +15% meat. 

[BareSkin]

On 1/13/2019 at 2:49 PM, Maehlice said:

Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough calories in the game to stay Well Fed

On 1/14/2019 at 1:33 AM, Maehlice said:

I'd love to hear from a seasoned 'loper on this, because I've never made it to the super late game.

Well I don't know if I qualify as "seasoned loper", but I play a Custom mode harder than Loper, in which you are strongly incentivized not to starve... and it's been 60 days I am well fed... other have played a non-healing Interloper and stopped (without dying) on day 130.

Worse than that, we've seen people play Deadman settings (can't starve, can't heal) and make it to 100 days, so I'd say it's doable.

Here you can read those stories, maybe you'll see some tips who knows

[Guest jeffpeng]

I won't quote every single statement here, but generally: There are enough calories in the game. There aren't enough calories in the game to sit on your butt in your sweet little cabin from day one, but there are enough. And yes, even in Interloper.   also won't argue those points as they have been argued countless times and will be argued countless times. But I kinda wanna give a recipe how to stay "Well Fed" on Interloper and beyond.

Interloper basically has two stages: Scavenger and Hunter.

As the Scavenger you live from what you find, and to find enough you have to move a lot and plan thoughtfully. Staying two days in one place is actually already a failure unless you have a good reason for it. Plan ahead, know your environment, know where to find what. There are a few rather dependable food sources (cattails, reishi, rose hips), and if you cover enough ground you will find stuff eventually. Be thorough searching buildings. I know many people claim containers aren't worth it in Interloper but they are. Don't waste your calories and time (= calories, too) on silly things like breaking furniture, taking hides and guts from carcasses or reading a book when there's actually good weather to be on the road.

You can basically go everywhere once munching yourself through what you can find, but you cannot stay. Your ultimate goal is to collect as much gear as you can in the process, and end your "Grande Tour" at a forge and have some saplings curing somewhere already. Calculate that route in advance. For example:

 My latest game started in DP, near the lighthouse. On Day 2, once I realized the loot table I am on, I had a plan: Finish circling DP (skip Scruffy), then go CH, Misanthropes, Jackrabbit, Fishing Camp (I detoured here to travel Bear Creek for a day since I managed to steal a deer from a wolf), Quonset, to PV via the mine, Rural Crossroads, Barn, Farmstead & drop off, Draft Dodgers, skip Skeeters for now and go straight for the Bunker, then TWM Mountaineer's Hut, make the climb to the Summit via Engine Gorge and Three Way Cave, climb back down via Eric's to collect cat tails, vacuum up the cattails at the lake and back to PV, Skeeters, Draft Dodgers if need be, Farmstead, pick up my stuff, Radio Tower, through Winding River to the dam, skip most of ML except the Camp Office, make

first base at Trapper's, craft some equipment if I can (Mitts, Deerskin Pants, that sort), make a tour to the forge in FM living off cattails, craft 20-ish arrow heads, return vacuuming more cattails, craft bow and arrows at Trappers. This should happen around day 50.

Try to stick to your route. Make a timetable where you wanna be when at big way points, and try to stick to that as well. Don't dally. Don't collect the last of the last. You're on borrowed time all the way until you have your weapons. Manage your food resources and realize in advance when you are in trouble. Learn how to utilize wolves to do your hunting for you. Don't actively hunt rabbits, they aren't worth the calories and time, but if one basically begs you to kill it and it suits your schedule take what mother nature offers you. Don't fish. Just ... don't.

Once you've got your arrow heads craft as many arrows as you can as it raises your skill - and archery skill matters. Now ... you are the Hunter. Shoot everything you can shoot, including rabbits. Being a successful hunter long term requires you to attain Archery V sooner rather than later. Being the Hunter you can stay several days in one place, and you should have a "base" by now, even better if it supplies you with rabbits. But don't get lazy. Stay on the move, hunt for bad days in advance, plunder the regions you haven't plundered yet.

Having done a complete sweep of Great Bear you should find yourself around Day 150, depending on how progressive you were. You've attained Cooking V and Archery V some time ago, probably also Fire Starting V and Carcass Harvesting V. You already have a well established base and probably made plans how to live out the next 350 days. If an almost 40 years old casual gamer can do that in a Sleepwalker game without sleep recovery and just "Low" recovery while being awake without starving in said 150 days you clearly can do it with the lush sleep recovery Interloper grants you. It doesn't require extraordinary skill, just good planning and good knowledge of what you are doing - which is basically the essence of any undertaking in life. You don't need to be a scientist to build a radio, but schematics help and knowing a battery from a capacitor is equally important.

And in general ... don't ask how you can make a challenge easier. Ask yourself how you can become better to be up to the challenge. If people can do it, you can do it. Plus, what I always say: Games are games. They are neither logical nor realistic. They are a fictionalized abstraction of what life could be. If deer in TLD have just 10 kg of usable meat max ... well, that's probably for a reason.

[U47]

21 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

I won't quote every single statement here, but generally: There are enough calories in the game. There aren't enough calories in the game to sit on your butt in your sweet little cabin from day one, but there are enough. And yes, even in Interloper.   also won't argue those points as they have been argued countless times and will be argued countless times. But I kinda wanna give a recipe how to stay "Well Fed" on Interloper and beyond.

Interloper basically has two stages: Scavenger and Hunter.

As the Scavenger you live from what you find, and to find enough you have to move a lot and plan thoughtfully. Staying two days in one place is actually already a failure unless you have a good reason for it. Plan ahead, know your environment, know where to find what. There are a few rather dependable food sources (cattails, reishi, rose hips), and if you cover enough ground you will find stuff eventually. Be thorough searching buildings. I know many people claim containers aren't worth it in Interloper but they are. Don't waste your calories and time (= calories, too) on silly things like breaking furniture, taking hides and guts from carcasses or reading a book when there's actually good weather to be on the road.

You can basically go everywhere once munching yourself through what you can find, but you cannot stay. Your ultimate goal is to collect as much gear as you can in the process, and end your "Grande Tour" at a forge and have some saplings curing somewhere already. Calculate that route in advance. For example:

 

  Hide contents

 My latest game started in DP, near the lighthouse. On Day 2, once I realized the loot table I am on, I had a plan: Finish circling DP (skip Scruffy), then go CH, Misanthropes, Jackrabbit, Fishing Camp (I detoured here to travel Bear Creek for a day since I managed to steal a deer from a wolf), Quonset, to PV via the mine, Rural Crossroads, Barn, Farmstead & drop off, Draft Dodgers, skip Skeeters for now and go straight for the Bunker, then TWM Mountaineer's Hut, make the climb to the Summit via Engine Gorge and Three Way Cave, climb back down via Eric's to collect cat tails, vacuum up the cattails at the lake and back to PV, Skeeters, Draft Dodgers if need be, Farmstead, pick up my stuff, Radio Tower, through Winding River to the dam, skip most of ML except the Camp Office, make

first base at Trapper's, craft some equipment if I can (Mitts, Deerskin Pants, that sort), make a tour to the forge in FM living off cattails, craft 20-ish arrow heads, return vacuuming more cattails, craft bow and arrows at Trappers. This should happen around day 50.

 

Try to stick to your route. Make a timetable where you wanna be when at big way points, and try to stick to that as well. Don't dally. Don't collect the last of the last. You're on borrowed time all the way until you have your weapons. Manage your food resources and realize in advance when you are in trouble. Learn how to utilize wolves to do your hunting for you. Don't actively hunt rabbits, they aren't worth the calories and time, but if one basically begs you to kill it and it suits your schedule take what mother nature offers you. Don't fish. Just ... don't.

Once you've got your arrow heads craft as many arrows as you can as it raises your skill - and archery skill matters. Now ... you are the Hunter. Shoot everything you can shoot, including rabbits. Being a successful hunter long term requires you to attain Archery V sooner rather than later. Being the Hunter you can stay several days in one place, and you should have a "base" by now, even better if it supplies you with rabbits. But don't get lazy. Stay on the move, hunt for bad days in advance, plunder the regions you haven't plundered yet.

Having done a complete sweep of Great Bear you should find yourself around Day 150, depending on how progressive you were. You've attained Cooking V and Archery V some time ago, probably also Fire Starting V and Carcass Harvesting V. You already have a well established base and probably made plans how to live out the next 350 days. If an almost 40 years old casual gamer can do that in a Sleepwalker game without sleep recovery and just "Low" recovery while being awake without starving in said 150 days you clearly can do it with the lush sleep recovery Interloper grants you. It doesn't require extraordinary skill, just good planning and good knowledge of what you are doing - which is basically the essence of any undertaking in life. You don't need to be a scientist to build a radio, but schematics help and knowing a battery from a capacitor is equally important.

And in general ... don't ask how you can make a challenge easier. Ask yourself how you can become better to be up to the challenge. If people can do it, you can do it. Plus, what I always say: Games are games. They are neither logical nor realistic. They are a fictionalized abstraction of what life could be. If deer in TLD have just 10 kg of usable meat max ... well, that's probably for a reason.

Very well said.

I am still a newer player to this game, only 362 hours so far, and just started playing Stalker difficulty. With that in mind it did not take me long to understand that there are several things one must do to have a successful run.

1.  Know the regions
2.  Have a plan
3.  Set priorities and always change your priorities as opportunities/mishaps occur.
4.  Manage your time.

As was shown in @jeffpeng example, he did all four with a hefty amount of experience and was thus successful.