FunkyFuggerson

Regarding The Choice With Hobbs

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In another play through I might pull the knife and place a pack of painkillers next to him. Won't save him but would ease him out. It's going to be a pitiless new dog eat dog world, the more acts of grace you can manage, even for wretched scum like Hobbs, the less you'll succumb spiritually to this crueller, wilder world.

In reality I don't think any of us know what we'd do for sure, with emotions and adrenaline pumping through us. There's a world of difference between theorising in a comfy chair and being on the spot, in the moment, and the uncertainty, fear and anger working on you. Maybe a self-proclaimed man of eye-for-an-eye justice would be moved by pity at the last. Maybe spiritual ma  would be overcome with anger from what he saw at the schoolhouse.

Anyway it's a great story beat, and just what I was hoping for, being in keeping with all those British 1960s catastrophe novels I love so much.   

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On 12/20/2018 at 2:30 PM, Ice Hole said:

Calvin made us do it.   

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He said it had something to do with "snow-persons".

 

Was hoping I did not have to show this.

j8vj8f7jgjsgonfrrf6q.jpg

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I pulled the knife based on the dual idea that it was what Hobbs thought would be the best treatment and would be grateful for whilst personally knowing (and assuming the story knows too) that it's more likely to be worse for him than leaving it in and a slower death than ending him there.

I wondered why we didnt get to keep the knife. In my playthrough you could actually see the knife under the couch vertically half in the ground. Basically set to the character models root position rather than disappeared. You couldn't pick it up though.

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14 hours ago, Ice Hole said:

Was hoping I did not have to show this.

 

  Hide contents

 

j8vj8f7jgjsgonfrrf6q.jpg

 

 

Id think a crazy calvin and hobbes snowman in some obscure corner of timberwolf mountain would be a nice easteregg! 

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7 hours ago, DaveMcD said:

I pulled the knife based on the dual idea that it was what Hobbs thought would be the best treatment and would be grateful for whilst personally knowing (and assuming the story knows too) that it's more likely to be worse for him than leaving it in and a slower death than ending him there.

I wondered why we didnt get to keep the knife. In my playthrough you could actually see the knife under the couch vertically half in the ground. Basically set to the character models root position rather than disappeared. You couldn't pick it up though.

Yea in real life pulling it out would be a big mistake, so yea either way in real life Hobbs would be dead. 

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In FO4, the canon ending is you kill your son and nuke the group that has the best technology known to man. Wanting a "knife" after you pull it from a convict is pretty low on the video game psycopath scale. Just want and see what I will do for a nice hot plate of pancakes with syrup! lol

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48 minutes ago, terryt3535 said:

see what I will do for a nice hot plate of pancakes with syrup!

@ThePancakeLady hide your hotcakes, hide your pancakes, hide your flapjacks cause they're hangry (hunger&angry) out here.  :D

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6 hours ago, FunkyFuggerson said:

Id think a crazy calvin and hobbes snowman in some obscure corner of timberwolf mountain would be a nice easteregg! 

Maybe seemingly splattered by a storage container.:D

I'd also go for the snowman hit by a car, with the head resting on the hood (not pictured).

Nice to see fellow Calvin & Hobbes fans.  It makes me want to pull out the old books.

Ooooo.... How about a cardboard box with "Duplicator" drawn on the side?  -From Scientific Progress goes "Boink!"

Edited by Khan_Drichthyes
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On 21/12/2018 at 12:31 PM, hozz1235 said:

Hmm...getting labelled a psychpath or obtaining a tool that may save my life...hmm...tough choice. O.o

The real moral dilemma was whether or not you wanted people to find out that you're a psychopath.

I didn't think about the knife until later, when I went back to town and found the deer carcass. I just assumed that the knife would be in my inventory - I just found it weird when it wasn't. If it's deliberate, then I think it's a poor design decision (because it breaks immersion by reminding you that you're playing gamerules); if it was an oversight, I think the devs should fix it. 

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10 hours ago, Khan_Drichthyes said:

Maybe seemingly splattered by a storage container.:D

I'd also go for the snowman hit by a car, with the head resting on the hood (not pictured).

Nice to see fellow Calvin & Hobbes fans.  It makes me want to pull out the old books.

Ooooo.... How about a cardboard box with "Duplicator" drawn on the side?  -From Scientific Progress goes "Boink!"

I think having an affectionate tiger knocking me off my feet and out of my boots every time I return home to Pleasant Valley Farmhouse would just about finish me off.

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On 12/20/2018 at 7:17 AM, Simone Else said:

i killed the bastard, the only regret is i couldnt keep that knife

On 12/20/2018 at 12:41 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

Only players of this game could experience a moment like that, face a choice like that, and then worry about why they didn't get to "keep the knife" after. :) 

Ultimately, I think that the knife, as an object, is a very important part of this particular interaction. It had a bit of the "Trolley Problem" vibe to it. If you don't kill Hobbs, are you just allowing the death of another person? In the end, he's a bad guy, bad guy.

"Why is the knife important?" You might ask. Well, the Trolley Problem falls under a theory of Ethics called utilitarianism. Utilitarianism attempts to determine the value of certain ethical choices by it's overall outcome. But there's a reason why Ethicists still continue debate the Trolley Problem and the overall value of fully committing an utilitarian model for judging ethical choices, the overall outcome of real life ethical choices can never be fully calculated before hand. And there's another important part of ethical choices that needs to be addressed, the psychological impact the choice has on the person making the choice. Sure you saved people by pushing a guy in front of a moving trolley, or sure you probably saved people by pushing a knife into Hobbs, but... what did making that choice do to you? Chances are, making that choice changed you as a person. You've killed someone. There's no going back now.

Now you're probably thinking, "OMG! What about the knife though?!" Okay, I'm getting to it. When you push the knife into Hobbs the overall outcome is much more concrete relative to the outcome of the other choice. Hobbs is dead. You killed a man, but the people can sleep a little more soundly (relatively speaking:wolf:). Whereas, if you pull the knife out, Hobbs lives, or does he? Even if he does, what does that really mean? Would it really be that bad to let him live? He might do something stupid like try and mess with Grey Mother and die anyway. But at least you get to keep what little humanity you have left and the knife will remind you of that. Make it a special item: :huntingknife:Bloody Knife: You pulled this knife out of a convict named Hobbs.

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6 hours ago, shade_grey said:

Ultimately, I think that the knife, as an object, is a very important part of this particular interaction. It had a bit of the "Trolley Problem" vibe to it. If you don't kill Hobbs, are you just allowing the death of another person? In the end, he's a bad guy, bad guy.

"Why is the knife important?" You might ask. Well, the Trolley Problem falls under a theory of Ethics called utilitarianism. Utilitarianism attempts to determine the value of certain ethical choices by it's overall outcome. But there's a reason why Ethicists still continue debate the Trolley Problem and the overall value of fully committing an utilitarian model for judging ethical choices, the overall outcome of real life ethical choices can never be fully calculated before hand. And there's another important part of ethical choices that needs to be addressed, the psychological impact the choice has on the person making the choice. Sure you saved people by pushing a guy in front of a moving trolley, or sure you probably saved people by pushing a knife into Hobbs, but... what did making that choice do to you? Chances are, making that choice changed you as a person. You've killed someone. There's no going back now.

Now you're probably thinking, "OMG! What about the knife though?!" Okay, I'm getting to it. When you push the knife into Hobbs the overall outcome is much more concrete relative to the outcome of the other choice. Hobbs is dead. You killed a man, but the people can sleep a little more soundly (relatively speaking:wolf:). Whereas, if you pull the knife out, Hobbs lives, or does he? Even if he does, what does that really mean? Would it really be that bad to let him live? He might do something stupid like try and mess with Grey Mother and die anyway. But at least you get to keep what little humanity you have left and the knife will remind you of that. Make it a special item: :huntingknife:Bloody Knife: You pulled this knife out of a convict named Hobbs.

Ill be honest with ya, I just asked this and sat back, totally wasn't expecting this amount of dedication to a singular question or outcome of a moral choice. Damn good job hinterland, and bravo Grey for this response.

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I stabbed him without remorse. He would not survive. I mean, really, he could have pulled that knife out himself. It would also seem that he was basically hanging out watching the "real" bad guys do things without enough gumption to either join in or attempt prevention. Even in perfect health, I don't think he would have survived. It made me wonder how he even got to the farmhouse.

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Everything in my first aid training was telling me that it would be pulling the knife out that would also actually be a death sentence by hastening the blood loss.   I wanted the option to tell him that just leaving it alone was probably what was keeping him alive, and then have him ask me again to pull it out in order to end his miserable life.  I wanted saving him to involve actively bandaging the wound with the knife still in place to stop the bleeding.  In my mind, pushing it in or pulling it out was the same choice - to kill him.

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The problem for me with this choice was that I am not Will. I'd like to think that if I found a badly wounded criminal (even a murderer), that I would do what I could to ease their pain. Except, I don't know how I would react if I knew that that criminal had harmed, possibly quite badly, someone close to me who I care deeply about.

Will is clearly angry with Hobbs for that reason. But I'm wasn't. I know that Astrid is probably alright, because I know that Astrid plays an integral part in the story later on. But Will doesn't know this. As a game/story choice, I think it would have had much more impact on the player if we ourselves had been given the chance to make some sort of emotional connection with Astrid before coming across such a dilemma: if this type of decision had been presented to me in Episode 5, after I'd spent hours in-game playing as and getting to know Astrid and her story, then it's likely that I would have felt something more genuine about a character who hurt her, and it would have affected what I did next much more.

For me, it wasn't a very convincing moral choice, for that reason. I pulled the knife out because I reasoned that it probably wouldn't make any difference to the story or my progress in the game either way, and I didn't feel like killing someone just for the sake of it when there didn't seem to be any reason to.

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On 12/21/2018 at 7:00 AM, MueckE said:

I don't want to be rude here, but folks please! If you think in that situation like "i want this knife" - then actually you are a psychopath. That is exactly how someone without empathy or any kind of moral would think  (a psychopath)..

However you've decided, don't base that decision on getting the knife!

Did I miss the part where this actually became real life? So a couple things, 1. I totally agree it messed up the emersive feel of the get a little. I thought it was a glitch. 2. When living in a SURVIVAL situation, you have to think about these things. 3. Why did you all assume you couldn't keep it if you killed him with it? Wouldn't it be easier to pull it off of a corpse like you do countless other items throughout the quiet tundra? Anyway, thinking like that doesn't make you a psychopath, it makes you a survivalist. Thisan was on a bus to a prision where they held the "worst of the worst." This is a moral dilemma in so many ways. It was a fantastic moment that genuinely triggered an emotional response. I saved him myself. I put myself in his shoes, or I guess put him in mine. I know I couldn't live with myself if I killed him. Why was the no option to do nothing? This game was well done but could use a bit more tlc when it comes to stuff like this. Thanks for a great game guys, keep it up!  :)

Edited by Aphrodite1022

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@Aphrodite1022

Raph also weighted in on this topic in Milton Mailbag Dispatch #21 where he responded:

"I didn't want the decision to be motivated by whether you would get a knife out of it or not. The knife in this instance is a prop. The decision should be a narrative one and a moral one, not a gameplay optimization."

 

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On 6/3/2019 at 6:55 PM, ManicManiac said:

@Aphrodite1022

Raph also weighted in on this topic in Milton Mailbag Dispatch #21 where he responded:

"I didn't want the decision to be motivated by whether you would get a knife out of it or not. The knife in this instance is a prop. The decision should be a narrative one and a moral one, not a gameplay optimization."

 

So maybe there was a way of telling the player you wouldn't get the knife. Like, a line from Hobbs explaining you wouldn't get the item anyway, or a broken useless one, smtg like this. I killed the dude with no hesitation, even if I didn't think about having the knife. Honestly. Seems I'm a psychopath, good to know.

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On 7/13/2019 at 10:10 AM, BareSkin said:

So maybe there was a way of telling the player you wouldn't get the knife. Like, a line from Hobbs explaining you wouldn't get the item anyway, or a broken useless one, smtg like this. I killed the dude with no hesitation, even if I didn't think about having the knife. Honestly. Seems I'm a psychopath, good to know.

You are not a psychopath, but you play one in a video game.

 

Surely this was inspired by Police Squad.

Edited by Ice Hole

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