Dev Diary - November 2018


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  • Hinterland
2 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

To be fair @the_watdabneyraised a few really good points that I find hard not to agree upon, and I'm very positively impressed by you taking them seriously, @Raphael van Lierop.

For many people the story mode is the core element of the game, and it's still not even halfway done. I think it is hard to convey the reasons lie, in big part, in your own aspirations to deliver an uncompromised experience that holds up to everything you imagined for it to be - and will stun the world in awe. It's probably also something only a developer or creator will understand that now you "geared up" with your new acquisitions in colleagues and hardware that horizon of what can be achieved has expanded by a large margin and you want to use those possibilities now rather than later.

Although doing very different software myself, I know this attachment I have to my babies, and that I more often than not am willing to work off hours for free just to get them as close to my own vision as possible. But it's hard to make people understand that. We live in a results based world in which a vision only gets you so far, in which possibilities only pay so much. As much as my boss will eventually put his finger on the deadline and demand a result, as much will the customers eventually demand their product. And I feel like "eventually" kinda is now.

I think being an independent studio run by developers and creators and not managers and businessmen is really what makes you people stand out and personally: I love that fact. It shows - for better and for worse. Despite all the great things you achieved with The Long Dark the patience of the community will eventually start to dwindle if after all this time you don't really start delivering starting with Episode 3 - soon. Another year spent waiting on Episode 3, or another "Redux" after that ... and The Long Dark just might make the history books as the best playable vaporware ever.

I personally don't want that. I personally strongly believe that The Long Dark is the game with the single greatest potential out there. A different take on how a game should work by a studio with a different take on how games should be made. I truly and sincerely wish you the best and hope that The Long Wait eventually pays off for you as much as for us, the Survivors.

Thanks for taking the time to articulate your thoughts. I do think using "vapourware" in reference to The Long Dark is pretty misguided. It's not like people haven't been playing the game for nearly 5 years already. Yes the story mode is taking longer than expected but it's not like we haven't been delivering a lot of free updates along the way. I'm happy to take hits for delaying the episodes but I won't accept this logic that for people who only care about the story, they've not benefitted from the ongoing development. Every Survival Mode update has added polish, features, tuning, bug fixes, etc. that directly impact the quality of the Episodes. Apart from tuning differences, WINTERMUTE and Survival Mode share a common gameplay and world foundation so improvements in one area directly benefit all areas of the game.

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  • Hinterland
1 hour ago, Le Petit Prince said:

Look sir, i have a great respect to you and what you do. I really do. If you really do "care a lot" please read this comment carefully and try to understand.

You are the developer and we are the players (customers). We bought a game and we want to play it. But we can not, all we do is waiting. Problem is simple as this.

It is not only about disappointment but also angryness. You say that you care, but we've been having the same arguement many times, and nothing ever changes. You always keep delaying what we're waiting for. We were expecting so much goodness from the long dark, we recommended it to our friends, we thought it was perfect and it would get even better by the time. But now i don't recommend it to anyone and i don't think this game will provide me a good experience. And it is all because of time. It's easy to say "be patient" but you are never giving us something, easy to say "we care a lot" but you are not proving it. It seems to be there will be around 2 years passed for a single episode. Don't you think IT IS "LITERALLY" TOO MUCH?

Don't delay it anymore. I've told this before. I am interested with art and if i want to go back and correct my mistake on a work, i will never be able to go further, i will stuck in a single work. Because nothing never ever becomes the best, there are always absences or mistakes. Accept them as they are and move on. Just like episode 1&2 were pretty amazing and made me fall in love with the game and did not need any redux. But you are losing your time and also losing our interest on the game. I don't want the best, it doesn't mean anything to me if it comes too late that i forgot the game. Instead, give me what you gave on first 2 episodes. I can't even count how many times i have read the statement: "Episode 3 is delayed, but we are working for the best, be patient" in dev diaries over the years. Make a change and suprise us for once and then we know you really do care!

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and as a paying customer you are entitled to have your anger and disappointment, and we will accept it and continue to hope that we can turn your opinion around over time. But really, nobody can tell us when to release the game, nobody can demand that we release it before we are ready, and nobody can tell us how we should best be using our own resources. You may not want the game to be the best it can be, and you may be completely happy with how the first two episodes turned out. But you are not the arbiter here. Ultimately, it's my call, and I accept the consequences both good and bad.

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A game like The Long Dark deserves as much time as it needs to finish. The game developers have worked hard to share more and more content with us and are still pushing to get us a much anticipated December update. Saying disrespectful comments like they have not shown/proven to us that they care, doesn't really get anything across. We are all a little disappointed in wait but we all know that once it is released, it was worth the wait. Don't rush developments, we have already waiting this long. We can trust Hinterland Studios is working hard to create the content we are hoping for. Thanks for all the work you have already done for The Long Dark. Stay warm out there...

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Guest jeffpeng
Just now, Raphael van Lierop said:

Thanks for taking the time to articulate your thoughts. I do think using "vapourware" in reference to The Long Dark is pretty misguided. It's not like people haven't been playing the game for nearly 5 years already. Yes the story mode is taking longer than expected but it's not like we haven't been delivering a lot of free updates along the way. I'm happy to take hits for delaying the episodes but I won't accept this logic that for people who only care about the story, they've not benefitted from the ongoing development. Every Survival Mode update has added polish, features, tuning, bug fixes, etc. that directly impact the quality of the Episodes. Apart from tuning differences, WINTERMUTE and Survival Mode share a common gameplay and world foundation so improvements in one area directly benefit all areas of the game.

I don't dispute the amazing amount of work you put into this, plus using the term vaporware surely is overdrawn, but purposefully so to highlight how some people are feeling about this taking from some comments over the past year. It wasn't meant to offend. I'm personally one of those people that don't even care that much about story mode as I think The Long Dark has its actual strengths elsewhere, but that's not really the point.

The point is that I believe there is quite a severe discrepancy in what some people expected from The Long Dark and what they actually got, and that part of that is due to marketing the game as having a rich story mode. Communicating some of the amazing work you do towards that and other goals, much of which yet has to see the light of day, is hard to people that are not getting the one thing they actually wanted yet again. It simply makes ignoring the amazing value many people, me included, got out of The Long Dark much too easy.

Basically all I am trying to say is that I hope you are now all set to get Episode III rolling with a vengeance, and in a way that will leave people's mouth wide open - and silent. I've invested over 1000 hours into The Long Dark. It's a little bit my baby as well by now, so I just hope it finally has the success it deserves.

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  • Hinterland
35 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

The point is that I believe there is quite a severe discrepancy in what some people expected from The Long Dark and what they actually got, and that part of that is due to marketing the game as having a rich story mode. 

Not targeting you specifically but since you brought it up...

But the game does have a "rich story mode" (we can argue about quality and subjective things, certainly). It's also episodic, which was also outlined from the very earliest stages of the project's history (going back to KS). So, apart from delays -- around which frustration is entirely justifiable -- we haven't failed to deliver on anything we've promised.

I think part of the perceived disconnect is:

* Some people expected it to be a story-only game. We did too at the beginning. I'm sure it's frustrating to see progress on Survival Mode when you only care about Episodes. That said, it's one common foundation of content and gameplay so each survival update is a brick in the wall of each episode. Despite that, we shipped 15+ hours of story content last August and are about to reship it to a higher quality. Episode Three (another 5-7 hours) will follow when it's done. Etc. 

* Some people expected the game to launch with all five episodes completed, and are upset to discover that this hasn't been the case. I'm not sure where they might have got that impression since we never said we would release all five episodes at once.

All our store documentation, to my knowledge, clearly indicates the state of the game -- the Survival Mode + Challenges are "done" (and yet we continue to update them for free because we believe that's the right thing to do, so far, and it benefits our customers and the game a a whole), and the first two episodes are out, with more coming as they are finished, and customers will not have to pay anything more for them when they do release. Meanwhile, we'll also release free Survival mode updates along the way.

In most other contexts this would be considered a fantastic deal and we'd be lauded for it. 

I can't do anything about delays apart from apologize. I won't crunch my team to hit them. I won't compromise on quality or vision as long as I have money in the bank to pay for ongoing development. Despite unhappiness around Episode delays, The Long Dark continues to sell very well, and frankly, a lot of that comes down to people understanding that their purchase comes with a lot of future value, in the form of free updates. If you don't like the way I've updated The Long Dark you probably wont' like how I make future games either. But, from my perspective, what we are doing is no different from most other games out there today that launch something and then continue to update it post-launch with new content. In most of those cases, however, they are asking you to pay for those additional updates.

In any case, I'm sure you're as tired of hearing my arguments as I am of making them. So, I'm just going to go back and finish up what I was doing to ensure our Dec release goes smoothly. 

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Guest jeffpeng
4 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

In any case, I'm sure you're as tired of hearing my arguments as I am of making them. So, I'm just going to go back and finish up what I was doing to ensure our Dec release goes smoothly. 

I'm not tired of hearing arguments, but it's a bit sad that critique that was meant to be actually constructive is met with such a defensive mindset - but I get why, to a certain extend. In any case - best of luck and we're all thrilled for December.

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  • Hinterland
13 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

I'm not tired of hearing arguments, but it's a bit sad that critique that was meant to be actually constructive is met with such a defensive mindset - but I get why, to a certain extend. In any case - best of luck and we're all thrilled for December.

Not at all -- sorry that it came across that way. I was just trying to answer to the general sentiment that some people might have and not at all to you specifically. I appreciate that you are trying to see all points of view and I think that's important.

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Nice to see the creative minds behind the game taking in player feedback, I'm sure it's very well clear that although massive, the TLD world is still not big enough both in features and land to explore to accommodate the whole screenplay for story mode as you devised, even though it feels big enough to the sandbox player base ( myself included ). Would people be happy if story mode was constrained to the current map we have, and then future updates\DLC brought more content after a rushed  and reduced story mode? I'm guessing a downpour of harsh criticism would ensue, story mode won't have the same replayability allure that sandbox has, for obvious reasons, it's important that it is done right. 

Also, many of the features that are forthcoming were at some point mentioned by the community in some form, I'm also a software developer and I understand the frustration and demand for hard deadlines but I'm happy to accept a few slips on the most work intensive/innovative parts of the game and have a good two way relationship with the developer of a product I really enjoy and can in some way, help make it better. 

This is after all is a AAA quality game, made by a much smaller (albeit talented) studio. Each sandbox update has brought improvements on graphics, gameplay and sound design ( one of the game strongest points, IMO ). Quality trumps quantity in my books, my free time is precious and every single time I fire up the game I feel it was well worth it doing so. 

Just my 0.02. :coffee:

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My only take on all of this:

5bf7b9629a8e7_Delayedgame.png.6f9dc714279574636f993054aae9ec01.png

I can wait.

I would rather wait for a very good game, or cup of coffee, than get a rushed mess, which *may*  explain Episodes 1 & 2, as people were adamant about constantly yelling "When iz my GAEM??????" on Steam and other forums. I feel like Raph and his team may have felt pressured to release the first 2 episodes before they were really ready to.  I am concerned that the hard deadline they have given for mid-December is going to make people scream for hard deadlines again, after the Redux episodes are shipped.  That is a lot of stress, which can cause creative blockage, especially for a small studio that does not have hundred of people to rush a project out, and does not make their employees crunch, like many AAA studios have done (and gotten bashed for doing so...). I don;t like games rushed out half baked. And I don't like poorly brewed or burnt coffee colored water either. I'll wait for a fresh pot, thanks.coffee-with-beans.thumb.jpg.f8d97923f0d6b2dbe55e1d9a8b746450.jpg

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41 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

My only take on all of this:

5bf7b9629a8e7_Delayedgame.png.6f9dc714279574636f993054aae9ec01.png

I can wait.

I would rather wait for a very good game, or cup of coffee, than get a rushed mess, which *may*  explain Episodes 1 & 2, as people were adamant about constantly yelling "When iz my GAEM??????" on Steam and other forums. I feel like Raph and his team may have felt pressured to release the first 2 episodes before they were really ready to.  I am concerned that the hard deadline they have given for mid-December is going to make people scream for hard deadlines again, after the Redux episodes are shipped.  That is a lot of stress, which can cause creative blockage, especially for a small studio that does not have hundred of people to rush a project out, and does not make their employees crunch, like many AAA studios have done (and gotten bashed for doing so...). I don;t like games rushed out half baked. And I don't like poorly brewed or burnt coffee colored water either. I'll wait for a fresh pot, thanks.coffee-with-beans.thumb.jpg.f8d97923f0d6b2dbe55e1d9a8b746450.jpg

Waiting is not the problem here, this is what you insist on not to understand. Waiting "TOO MUCH" is the problem. Wintermute is the season 1 of the story mode, and there are 3 episodes remaining. If we wait 2 years for each, a season will be completed in 6 years! Imagine you are watching a TV series and new season is coming in each 6 years. 

Am i the only one who thinks, for a single episode, for 5 hours to play, waiting 2 years is Literally TOO MUCH. Firstly it was announced as the end of 2017 now the delay is announced -again- and we are in the end of 2018. This is the problem. They are saying: 

"coming soon,

sorry delayed,

coming soon,

sorry delayed,

coming in December finally,

sorry delayed again."

Look how annoying it is.

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2 hours ago, Le Petit Prince said:

 

Waiting is not the problem here, this is what you insist on not to understand. Waiting "TOO MUCH" is the problem. Wintermute is the season 1 of the story mode, and there are 3 episodes remaining. If we wait 2 years for each, a season will be completed in 6 years! Imagine you are watching a TV series and new season is coming in each 6 years. 

Am i the only one who thinks, for a single episode, for 5 hours to play, waiting 2 years is Literally TOO MUCH. Firstly it was announced as the end of 2017 now the delay is announced -again- and we are in the end of 2018. This is the problem. They are saying: 

"coming soon,

sorry delayed,

coming soon,

sorry delayed,

coming in December finally,

sorry delayed again."

Look how annoying it is.

Honestly, I get that you find it annoying. I think anyone who reads this thread gets that. Look how annoying your repeated posts are, honestly. I do find the fact that you expect everyone to feel the same way you do and throw tantrums like you are, a wee bit annoying. And the coffee> video game analogy is honestly, a terrible analogy. Not sure why you chose to compare making a complex video game to having a cuppa poured for you. Not even close to a reasonable comparison. But, I tried to work with it. 

Sorry if not everyone else finds it as annoying as you do. I am not thrilled to wait, but I am not having hissy fits over it either. I am fine with waiting, do you not understand that? That some of us would rather wait, and have a top quality game in the end, than have a half-baked game given to us right away, that never gets fully cooked, and is a ugly lump of "hurry up !" forever? 

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. I am sorry if it upsets you that I do not agree with you. But, I don't. Sorry if it upsets you that not everyone feels the same way you do. But not all of us do.

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Guest jeffpeng
4 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

I don;t like games rushed out half baked. And I don't like poorly brewed or burnt coffee colored water either. I'll wait for a fresh pot, thanks.

I always think of "Knights of the Old Republic II" in this context. Maybe a bit before their time for many younger folks here, but back then in the early 2000's I was a huge fan of KOTOR and how it singlehandedly revolutionized the rpg genre of that time. Then when KOTOR II came out I wasn't waiting for reviews or anything. I just bought it -and it scarred me for life.

The story was half finished, inconsistent and full of loop holes, the initial version was buggy and prone to crashes, many places were hinted but never visited, balance hadn't been the strength of the first game already, but it was just hilarious with this one - and especially the final chapter was just a mess in every aspect. Obsidian had a very tight time table to deliver, and they did deliver on time - but the game was basically a glorified beta version. A community effort went on over 10 years to try and fix the game and the third installment was never released. What could have become a legacy franchise like Fallout or The Elder Scrolls (notably both Bethesda titles) died a shameful, premature death with its second installment.

Bethesda is a good example here. They are notorious for many things I disagree with, but their release style is pretty much "It's done when it's done" and when they announce something, it's basically already shipping out to vendors - and I kinda think it's the way to go. That's not saying that Skyrim, for example, wasn't rigged with silly bugs and frankly still is to this day. And comparing Hinterland and Bethesda is certainly not fair as the sheer funds Bethesda can throw at development are ridonculous. But success shows that the philosophy of rather polishing than rushing is the right philosophy.

And maybe you are up to something here, @ThePancakeLady:

4 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

I am concerned that the hard deadline they have given for mid-December is going to make people scream for hard deadlines again, after the Redux episodes are shipped. 

I agree. Personally... I would be fine to not have any set release dates any more, period. Maybe a week in advance. How the "save wipe" was communicated was admirable: in-game news to notify me. Fair game. You can't miss that. I think the community, long term, would take it much better to just get small little tidbits of new things like the hinted spear or that amazing artwork for Episode III (the one with the strande whale) and that's it. Estimated time to release: when it's done. People eat that. They might not always like it, but they eat it. Rather have no premature celebration than an eventual snow storm when things get delayed. And it gives the much needed free room for creative work at that level - and yes, software development is creative work! (I have that argument all the time ...)

Just keep people up to date that amazing stuff is being cooked up behind the scenes (the dev diaries do a marvelous job at that) and then bonk them over the head with a surprise announcement for Episode III. "Astrid's going ham next week. Take your vacation days now!" Time and time again people - especially in the software business - have failed to come through on promises and took a lot of flak for that - but nobody ever got any thanks for delivering on time. The risk/reward calculation on announcing something before it's done and ready didn't work out for anyone pretty much ever. Sadly: the interwebs are like that. 

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21 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

 

Rather have no premature celebration than an eventual snow storm when things get delayed. And it gives the much needed free room for creative work at that level - and yes, software development is creative work! (I have that argument all the time ...)

Just keep people up to date that amazing stuff is being cooked up behind the scenes (the dev diaries do a marvelous job at that) and then bonk them over the head with a surprise announcement for Episode III. "Astrid's going ham next week. Take your vacation days now!" Time and time again people - especially in the software business - have failed to come through on promises and took a lot of flak for that - but nobody ever got any thanks for delivering on time. The risk/reward calculation on announcing something before it's done and ready didn't work out for anyone pretty much ever. Sadly: the interwebs are like that. 

Software dev myself, and a paper & pen artist, and a digital artist (mostly fractal art/dancing fractals/fractal movies). Yep. Even the "mundane" SW is creative work. I own and run the business. We do not give set deadlines to our clients, because stuff happens sometimes. We give "roundabout" dates. With my side work doing fractal art to order, I do not like giving set dates fr completion of custom orders. Because if  I get an block, and can't visualize what I am creating in my head, the algorithms I need to use to make it aren't going to pop out of thin air on my demand either. Either business, if a client demands a set deadline, that means I have to pull my employees off of other projects to finish theirs up "pronto"... that l client is going to pay more for their job. Significantly more. Or they flat-out get told to go elsewhere. I will not make my employees crunch and disrupt their lives for you. I would much rather loose a client than make my employees physically, mentally, and emotionally ill just to get a small amount of money. 

 

 

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  • Hinterland
2 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

I agree. Personally... I would be fine to not have any set release dates any more, period. Maybe a week in advance.

I think this is probably what we'll do moving forward, for all the reasons you outlined. And also, the no-crunch thing which we take pretty seriously at our studio. We're mostly veteran "triple-A" devs at our studio, most of us have done heavy crunch in the past, and most of us came to Hinterland to avoid that in the future. No release dates until a week before is the best recipe for avoiding disappointment and for avoiding crunch.

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Guest jeffpeng
1 minute ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I think this is probably what we'll do moving forward, for all the reasons you outlined. And also, the no-crunch thing which we take pretty seriously at our studio. We're mostly veteran "triple-A" devs at our studio, most of us have done heavy crunch in the past, and most of us came to Hinterland to avoid that in the future. No release dates until a week before is the best recipe for avoiding disappointment and for avoiding crunch.

Just having entered a heavy crunch session until the holidays I kinda wanna work at HL :D But good decision. 

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9 hours ago, Le Petit Prince said:

Because nothing never ever becomes the best, there are always absences or mistakes. Accept them as they are and move on. Just like episode 1&2 were pretty amazing and made me fall in love with the game and did not need any redux. But you are losing your time and also losing our interest on the game. I don't want the best, it doesn't mean anything to me if it comes too late that i forgot the game. Instead, give me what you gave on first 2 episodes.

Honestly, I hope this point of view is a minority among the player base. No offense intended to @Le Petit Prince and do think it's a valid way of looking at TLD as a project, but I don't agree with it or share that perspective, personally. At least not completely.

I'm very happy that the first two episodes are being reworked, because I think they were lacking something in their initial (current) form. I'm glad that Raphael and his team recognised this and are making positive changes. I don't mind waiting longer for the finished article if that means it ends up being better.

Where I do share a concern of the quote above (if I'm not misinterpreting it) is in terms of players "forgetting" the story. That is, if we play episodes 1 and 2, and then number 3 isn't released for another 6 months or a year, there is a real danger that we players will simply lose track of what's going on in narrative. For me it hasn't got anything to do with being a 'customer' and wanting the 'product' I've paid for to be delivered. It's a simple, practical matter of remaining engaged with the unfolding plot of the story that's being told. If I get into a series of movies or a TV drama, and the episodes or seasons have large gaps between releases, it isn't a huge problem: I can just re-watch the previous ones immediately before the new one comes out to refresh my memory; there's often a recap written into a new episode to remind the audience of key events as well. But I'm not sure this is really the same with an interactive experience like a game. I don't think I'd want to re-play previous episodes purely as a plot reminder in this case - I am part of the story, controlling the actions of the protagonists, and I might well do something different the 2nd (or subsequent) times I play through it. Playing the early episodes multiple times before I've been able to complete the full story once would break up my engagement with the whole thing, I think.

Now that episodes 1 and 2 are being effectively re-released, I'm happy to start the story again from scratch. But I do think it's fairly important for continuity that the final 3 arrive at reasonably regular intervals after that. Otherwise we will be forgetting what we were doing between releases.

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23 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

It's not like people haven't been playing the game for nearly 5 years already.

I just want to comment on this point you made.  Yes, you have updated the sandbox, and that was clear from the first time I read about this game around 4 years ago.  You were going to update the sandbox to test the mechanics and features for the story mode.  At least that was my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong.

I was happy to provide feedback and bug reports as I played the sandbox as it gave me a good idea of what you folks were working on and were planning for the story mode.  And then finally, the first 2 episodes were released.  There were hiccups and it wasn't as polished as I had hoped after all the testing and bug fixes and updates to the sandbox.  You folks worked to fix the bugs and get a more stable release fairly quickly, and if I hadn't made it clear (which I probably didn't) I did appreciate you folks finally releasing a working game I could try to enjoy.

My main problem with the continued updates to the sandbox is that any new content is going to feel old once the episodes do finally roll out.  I already know almost every nook and cranny, stash locations, etc. in the maps that were available before the first 2 episodes.  Even though Milton was a new map with the release, there was nothing really new.  Before the next episode is released, I want to forget all the locations and features, and hopefully, be presented with all the new features as I play the new episode.  This is my main reason for not wanting to play the sandbox until then.  I want to see the story fresh, without any known new locations (if there are any in the next or subsequent episodes) and without knowing all the tricks of the new features.  I feel that was a major reason I did not fully enjoy the first 2 episodes.  I already knew how to heal myself, I already knew how to fight off a wolf, or evade a bear, or where to find food, shelter, supplies, etc.

Having so many updates is great for some, but not for all.  I know you can't please everyone all the time, and I would never ask anyone to do that.  All I ask is for a game I was excited to play to finally get some progress.  I knew it wasn't going to be released all at once.  I knew it would take a few years to get the first season completed.  What I didn't know is that you would go back to "redux" the first 2 episodes before even finishing episode 3.  That is what really upset me.  I think it's great that you were able to hire more developers and get new hardware, however, making delays because you want to go back to fix or redo what you didn't do the first time around is very upsetting.

 

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  • Hinterland
1 hour ago, the_watdabney said:

I just want to comment on this point you made.  Yes, you have updated the sandbox, and that was clear from the first time I read about this game around 4 years ago.  You were going to update the sandbox to test the mechanics and features for the story mode.  At least that was my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong.

I was happy to provide feedback and bug reports as I played the sandbox as it gave me a good idea of what you folks were working on and were planning for the story mode.  And then finally, the first 2 episodes were released.  There were hiccups and it wasn't as polished as I had hoped after all the testing and bug fixes and updates to the sandbox.  You folks worked to fix the bugs and get a more stable release fairly quickly, and if I hadn't made it clear (which I probably didn't) I did appreciate you folks finally releasing a working game I could try to enjoy.

My main problem with the continued updates to the sandbox is that any new content is going to feel old once the episodes do finally roll out.  I already know almost every nook and cranny, stash locations, etc. in the maps that were available before the first 2 episodes.  Even though Milton was a new map with the release, there was nothing really new.  Before the next episode is released, I want to forget all the locations and features, and hopefully, be presented with all the new features as I play the new episode.  This is my main reason for not wanting to play the sandbox until then.  I want to see the story fresh, without any known new locations (if there are any in the next or subsequent episodes) and without knowing all the tricks of the new features.  I feel that was a major reason I did not fully enjoy the first 2 episodes.  I already knew how to heal myself, I already knew how to fight off a wolf, or evade a bear, or where to find food, shelter, supplies, etc.

Having so many updates is great for some, but not for all.  I know you can't please everyone all the time, and I would never ask anyone to do that.  All I ask is for a game I was excited to play to finally get some progress.  I knew it wasn't going to be released all at once.  I knew it would take a few years to get the first season completed.  What I didn't know is that you would go back to "redux" the first 2 episodes before even finishing episode 3.  That is what really upset me.  I think it's great that you were able to hire more developers and get new hardware, however, making delays because you want to go back to fix or redo what you didn't do the first time around is very upsetting.

 

This is the last comment I'll post re: this topic because we're not getting anywhere, but really what you are saying is that playing Survival Mode for so long has reduced your enjoyment of Story b/c you know the game so well. There's nothing we can do to alleviate that, apart from wiping your memory. If you want Episode Three to feel fresh and new when it comes out, I recommend you DON'T play Redux then and go into Episode Three having forgotten how to play the game. Also, DON'T play Survival Mode either. As @NardoLoopa said -- you can always wait until Episode Five is released. 

And saying there was "nothing really new" in Episodes One and Two is pretty silly, IMO. There was a STORY. Isn't that what you want?

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9 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

This is the last comment I'll post re: this topic because we're not getting anywhere, but really what you are saying is that playing Survival Mode for so long has reduced your enjoyment of Story b/c you know the game so well. There's nothing we can do to alleviate that, apart from wiping your memory. If you want Episode Three to feel fresh and new when it comes out, I recommend you DON'T play Redux then and go into Episode Three having forgotten how to play the game. Also, DON'T play Survival Mode either. As @NardoLoopa said -- you can always wait until Episode Five is released. 

And saying there was "nothing really new" in Episodes One and Two is pretty silly, IMO. There was a STORY. Isn't that what you want?

 You said, "It's not like people haven't been playing the game for nearly 5 years already."  Not everyone has been playing for 5 years.  I stopped playing the game about 2 months after the episodes were released.  So I played for about 2.5 years at best.  I do not want to play any more sandbox because I want to see all the new stuff you have done in the story mode.  Yes, it was my fault for playing the sandbox and knowing the game too well when the story finally came along.  I have never bought in to an early release and it was a mistake I made and I learned from that mistake.  I won't make it again.  So I will not play the game again until episode 3 is released.  Therefore I no longer have a game to play.  That is my choice and it is why it's so upsetting every time I see another delay.

But since you keep missing this point, I'll say it again.  I'm upset because now that episode 3 was set to release, you announce that you are releasing episodes 1&2 redux and delaying episode 3 again.  Which means you have spent your time redoing the first 2 episodes instead of moving on and accepting that there were faults with the first release.  Stand by your product, good or bad, admit your missteps and commit to do better on the next episode.  If you did that and worked to make episode 3 release when you said it was going to be released, I wouldn't be so critical.  But instead, you took resources out of your progress to redo the first release, delaying again the progress of the story.  It's been 2 years and we have yet to even know when the next episode will finally be finished.  You got new staff and toys to play with.  Great.  Use them and get this story going. 

 

 

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You can also say all this from the perspective of a Survival-mode player. Every few months i read that more people have been hired and now progress is been made quickly. At the same time an announcement of a delay for a release. I remember multible devblogs on "regular updates for sandbox". Sure, every year an update is regular.

How about fire people, go back to state of 2015 and release monthly updates?

To make it short: From no standpoint the time Hinterland needs for developement is acceptable. Yes, you got something to play already but it's far from perfect. The point is that the "perfect" game is what was and is  promised and what people are waiting for since 2014. Everything that has happened since then is a little compansation for the waiting and delaying. It was enjoyable for a short time and definetly already worth every Penny you've paid originally for TlD - but it simply isn't the final product.

In a coffee shop, the seller lures you into buying a very unique and special coffee, in itself a oerfect coffee. On top of that you will get 5 cups and all that for only 2 bugs. While you wait, you get a standard Espresso but with a little bit of chocolate on top of it and then you get delayed evey 30 minutes. After 4 hours of waiting and 10 "special" Espressos you get the first two cups of the promised coffee but it isn't far from perfect. So the seller tells you to wait only a little bit longer to make it right and after another 4 hours and 5 Espressos you get 2 cups that have been remade. Sure, the Espresso already was worth more than you've paid for the "perfect" coffee. But you also spend all the day in the shop, hoping for the coffee and went pissing like a camel.

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2 hours ago, MueckE said:

 

How about fire people, go back to state of 2015 and release monthly updates?

 

Are you out of your mind? Studios and businesses in general need to grow, to become more efficient and to make bigger projects. Firing people will have what effect? Crippling the ability of the studio to put out updates and begin work on a new game. So... you want to see Hinterland shrink and crumble, is what you are saying?

The only reason games have monthly or bi-monthly updates during early development (Early Access) is because the game is not even baked yet. The updates are literally like adding ingredients to a bowl to mix together, before baking. Once a game becomes HUGE, like TLD has become, updates slow, because most mechanics, maps, systems, items, ect. are already in the game, and the dependencies and complex interactions of one with another make it more difficult to add anything new, that interacts with what is already there. This is true of ALL software, not just games.  Expecting a huge update every month is a greedy and entitled attitude to have. And expecting a studio to provide them by firing team members on your whim... nice that you take enjoyment from the thought of more game devs out of work, in light of the huge number of studio shutterings and closures this past year. It's like me telling you to go cut off your right arm and right leg, and now go do MORE, NOW! You can do more as half a body, right? And keep doing more, every month, because... as a whole body you are too slow for my liking? You don't really need to have that arm and leg, right?

 

Seriously, can you be more entitled or rude? And... the coffee analogy is STILL a really bad analogy. And the camel remark... how do you know what camels' bodily functions are like? 

 

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On Xbox, I got one hour to try the game, in 5 minutes I bought it. 

After that, I bought the game 3 more times, on steam, one for me and 2 as gifts, and it was a well spent money.

To me (again, to me) the sandbox mode is the reason I play. And, in a very selfish way, I'm happy with the delay, because it means more development time, and more features added the sandbox mode. 

Again, this is me, and I respect those who are angry about the postponement. 

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15 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

you can always wait until Episode Five is released

Yeah, with amazing developement speed of HS let's wait around 10 years maybe? And who's going to remember the game then? No Thanks.

Like others said above, i am not interested in Sandbox. You should understand that there are 3 group of players, some only want the story mode, some only interested in sandbox, some interested in both. As a customer, people have right to demand something, and as a developer you have to provide something for all groups of players. The only reason i buy this game is the story mode and i don't care about others. Like he said above:

5 hours ago, the_watdabney said:

So I will not play the game again until episode 3 is released.  Therefore I no longer have a game to play.

For our group of player, there is no playable game for 2 years.

For some of us it goes like this: you hear about this game from a friend, or read it somewhere, they critisize it and say it has a great story, game is pretty good. So you check it on Steam, look at rates. You know that there are 2 episodes for now, but you see devs said other episodes will come like 4-5 months later. So you trust them, you think you can wait those time intervals between episodes and you buy the game. Only to play and enjoy the story mode.

And then the devs -for some reason idk why- start to think they have all the time of the earth, they don't have to provide you anything anymore, anything that they give you is extra, they don't need to have a deadline. NO! IT IS NOT LIKE THIS! You are a company and we are the customers. You give us a deadline and you keep postponding it over and over again. Nothing that you give us is extra. I'm not asking for free DLC or something here. I am asking for what i've been promised before i buy this game. If you will not succee to make it happen ON TIME, then remove the story mode trailers and advertisements on websites and on steam! Because you are cheating people. Stop ignoring the people who bought the game only for story and waiting to continue to play it. Imagine they sell Half-Life 3 but only half of the game is able to be played. Other half will come in god knows when. It is not forgivable. You are paying for this in the first place with the opinion that they will continue it soon.

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Because it looks like, the thread is becoming somewhat toxic, i want to add that my post was an expression of frustration - not because i hate Hinterland or TlD, but because i like it. I follow the progress since 2014, play the game on and off and have seen it all. If you hear over the years over and over again the same things about the progress and over and over again you get delays, at some point you just resignate. So many chances have been missed that it became a sad story and now even the update in December can not and will not satisfy in any way anymore. It's too little, too late.

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