Positives and Negatives to running all the time...

[xman1]

Just thinking while I am running around in game, I can run for an abnormal amount of time.

I understand some people will want to explore and this is the way they will do it. Others, like me, would want a more realistic approach to running where it results in fatigue loss. A price should be paid for running or a calculated cost.

Some ideas:

1. The first one is known from what I write above - fatigue loss as a result of running. The idea should be that you should be able to run to get out of a storm, but that should come at a price;

2. Additional calorie loss from running. If Cal count gets does to 0, then fatigue should increase due to no calories left to be consumed (starvation);

3. As you are burning more calories and fatigue, the trade off should be increased heat so you don't freeze as fast or not at all do to natural heat buildup from exertion. This will allow you to survive a storm better, but now you have to contend with fatigue as an opposite reaction.

Maybe to keep the people that like to explore happy, put this in as a hardcore mode for us people looking to make survival hard or natural or realistic.

-X

[themole4]

I agree. I also started a thread (we ended up discussing other things, but it could be worth for you to take a look):

Encumbrance, perceived temp and other issues

[JErosion]

I think you might slow down a bit at least once you start running out of breath

[elloco999]

Running already increases the rate at which fatigue goes up, and it already costs more calories to run vs walking. I do agree that fatigue should increase even faster when running and at 0 calories.

Warming up when running has been suggested many times already, but always seems to end in a discussion whether or not you should also start to sweat or not and if so, what would the effect of sweating be once you stop running?

[xman1]

Some thoughts here to the responses above -

- I watched my cal count and it didn't change one bit whether I was running or not.

- Fatigue didn't seem to change a whole lot when running from one end of the map to the other. I ran all the way from Trappers cabin to the Coast Highway without needing to stop. If it did change, I was able to run the whole map on one go.

[elloco999]

In v.138 you still had the calorie deficit (calories could go to -1500) and from 0 down the calories would always be on the screen. You could clearly see it going down faster when running. I've never tested this in v.156, but I do feel my calories run out faster when running. Also there's been no mention of this changing in the release notes so I'm pretty sure it still works the same.

I've ran from the Camp Office in Mystery Lake to the Log Sort in Coastal Highway with a 28kg load and back with a 11kg load without having to stop. But that was when I was at 100% condition, and started with all bars at 0 except for hunger. I had about 130 calories left when I started my run. By the time I got back, my fatigue was at 80%.

Another time, I had been starving for 30 hours, condition at 70%. Temperature and thirst at 0, hunger at 100 and fatigue at 25. I couldn't even run to the dam before exhaustion set in. Both in the same weather (weather also influences how quickly fatigue goes up, at least that's my experience).

Conclusion, starving influences how fast your fatgiue rises. No you won't notice much when you're just starving, but after a while it starts to be a hassle to manage fatigue.

[madrepityu]

When the game had the calorie burn/hour display in the UI, I was noticed the increased calorie burn when moving by pressing the TAB key. When I pressed it, I was able to notice the counter dropping back to the "default" value of not moving. It happened so fast that I never saw the actual calorie value of moving or running, but I noticed that it's dropping back after I stopped, becase I hit the TAB key.

[Amy]

3. As you are burning more calories and fatigue, the trade off should be increased heat so you don't freeze as fast or not at all do to natural heat buildup from exertion. This will allow you to survive a storm better, but now you have to contend with fatigue as an opposite reaction.

-X

I agree with this. When you're running in real life, your body naturally gets warmer, so this should definitely be a feature in game.

[themole4]

Warming up when running has been suggested many times already, but always seems to end in a discussion whether or not you should also start to sweat or not and if so, what would the effect of sweating be once you stop running?

I agree with elloco999 and I understand that warming up when running would have a lot of tricky implications, and I gave it up the idea, but the more I play, the more I get irritated when my "Cold" condition keeps going up while I'm exerting myself like a mule.

What should happen? You should sweat, some of your clothes get a "wet" condition (internally keeping the temp of the fluid making it wet), and as soon as you stop, you should imediately begin to feel much colder, as your sweat chills on you.

This could also address the possibility of surviving falling through ice (very small, I think) that was suggested elsewhere. You get wet with very cold water, but if you find dry clothes and a fire soon enough maybe you would be able to make it up for your horrible heat loss.

Also, if you've been out all day while snowing heavy, some of your clothes will be wet.

The few times I went skiing as a kid, I remember that, when I was back to my lodging, I had to put my clothes on the radiator, because they were wet from snow and sweat.

This could be done in-game near stoves or campfires, requiring that you have a set of dry clothes to put on in the meanwhile.

I know this would be complicated, but it could add to the gaming experience, and there are games that manage to keep track of much greater levels of complexity (if you ever gave a shot at Dwarf Fortress or at UnReal World, you'll know what I mean).

TL;DR: to summarise, I keep getting annoyingly frustrated at my getting colder while exerting myself.

[elloco999]

Although I agree that this would make things more realistic, I can also see it detracting from the fun of the game. If things are implemented as you describe, that means changing clothes a lot more often than is the case now. And changing clothes is not a very smooth process the way it works now. I think it would need a major overhaul of the GUI so changing clothes would be easier.

Also, if running makes you warmer and also makes you sweat (and it should not just be running, but all physical activities like foraging wood), I also want to be able to easily remove layers of clothing (to prevent or at least minimize sweating) when warming up and putting them back on when cooling down. It's what I would do IRL and what survival experts advise when surviving in cold weather. But the way this works now is opening the inventory, setting the filter to clothing, selecting the piece of clothing you want to take off/ put on, click the button, exit the inventory. That's a lot of steps that you need to take every time you need to manage your temperature.

All of this is technically possible and not even all that hard to do, but I don't think it would improve the gameplay.

[FoneBoneJay]

Although I agree that this would make things more realistic, I can also see it detracting from the fun of the game. If things are implemented as you describe, that means changing clothes a lot more often than is the case now. And changing clothes is not a very smooth process the way it works now. I think it would need a major overhaul of the GUI so changing clothes would be easier.

Also, if running makes you warmer and also makes you sweat (and it should not just be running, but all physical activities like foraging wood), I also want to be able to easily remove layers of clothing (to prevent or at least minimize sweating) when warming up and putting them back on when cooling down. It's what I would do IRL and what survival experts advise when surviving in cold weather. But the way this works now is opening the inventory, setting the filter to clothing, selecting the piece of clothing you want to take off/ put on, click the button, exit the inventory. That's a lot of steps that you need to take every time you need to manage your temperature.

All of this is technically possible and not even all that hard to do, but I don't think it would improve the gameplay.

Running all day is unrealistic. About 60% of energy expended during exercise is heat, the more you move the more you heat, however because you body is a three dimensional object with different mass to surface area ratios that heating is not consistent. It is entirely possible to be sweating and even profusely so on your chest and where your body naturally folds but also to have your finger tips to be so cold so as to not be able to strike a match.

Without adding a whole other module for managing your dryness, which I favor by the way, there is about as much realism in the current build as you can get without getting tedious if the intention is to model the negative effects of running.

I think you can run far too far in the game as it is without running out of endurance but I look at the "running speed" as an endurance level jog not a run. I think it might be more prudent to adjust speeds first.

Wolves when they are charging you at close distance seem to move their fastest and will eventually get you, but they don't seem to be able to do that reliably when they first start tracking you. If anything that is the time they should be moving the fastest. Once they get within about 50 feet then they would slow down and observe you and size you up and then attack. I think for play ability we should have the current walk speed, jog speed, but also a sprint speed speed which massively adds to tired, and can really only be used 3 times before sleeping, through the slow re-building up of a sprint bar which would be another module. This could give you about the length of two bridge lengths of distance of say about double the speed of normal running to get you away from a wolf.

[elloco999]

Without adding a whole other module for managing your dryness, which I favor by the way, there is about as much realism in the current build as you can get without getting tedious if the intention is to model the negative effects of running.

I agree, it would get tedious. That's why I don't think it would improve the gameplay.

I think you can run far too far in the game as it is without running out of endurance but I look at the "running speed" as an endurance level jog not a run. I think it might be more prudent to adjust speeds first.

True, you can run for far too long in TLD. I once ran from the Camp Office to the Log Sort and back, carrying 28kg on the way to the Log Sort and 12kg on the way back. I doubt that there are many people in the world who could do that even in good weather, let alone the weather we have in TLD. Even if it's at a jogging speed.

But on the other hand, walking all the time just takes too long. If it could be made in such a way that walking from A to B takes less time (RL time that is, not game time) I wouldn't mind if I couldn't run so much.

Wolves when they are charging you at close distance seem to move their fastest and will eventually get you, but they don't seem to be able to do that reliably when they first start tracking you. If anything that is the time they should be moving the fastest. Once they get within about 50 feet then they would slow down and observe you and size you up and then attack. I think for play ability we should have the current walk speed, jog speed, but also a sprint speed speed which massively adds to tired, and can really only be used 3 times before sleeping, through the slow re-building up of a sprint bar which would be another module. This could give you about the length of two bridge lengths of distance of say about double the speed of normal running to get you away from a wolf.

I like this idea! Would make things a bit more interesting

[aemaccoll]

It seems to me that walking and running the same distance burns the same number of calories, but when you walk it takes longer. I think there should be more of a benefit for walking. I mean, you don't see Bear Grylls running everywhere, do you?

[Dark]

About 60% of energy expended during exercise is heat, the more you move the more you heat, however because you body is a three dimensional object with different mass to surface area ratios that heating is not consistent. It is entirely possible to be sweating and even profusely so on your chest and where your body naturally folds but also to have your finger tips to be so cold so as to not be able to strike a match.

I think that this is quite hmmm. While the first part is true the second part lacks and is not necessary true. While doing anaerobic exercise the body produces Lactate and elevates the pulse and raises the blood pressure. This results in pressing the blood into the outer extremities with the effect of the distribution of temperature into them. For the described effect your core body temperature has to be already lower than normal.

It seems to me that walking and running the same distance burns the same number of calories, but when you walk it takes longer. I think there should be more of a benefit for walking. I mean, you don't see Bear Grylls running everywhere, do you?

Bear Grylls is also a fraud and this is a series that is not produced, like it is shown. Also he shows often too risky things, like jumping into unknown water from greater heights. But the first part is correct, this should not be. The difference should be at least 4 - 5 times the energy consumption of walking, for running.

Also to add that running in the wilderness is more dangerous, than walking. One sprained ankle could mean death.

Edit: Necessary muscle pump and joint movement to warm up a cold extremity.

To warm up an extremity is also necessary movement of the joint adjusted to the part which should be warmed up, because the movement of the muscles of the calf or forearm provides the necessary pressure to press the blood into the cold tissue. That is the reason why running and jumping warms up the feet and why we when we have cold hands we open and close the hand to warm up the fingers. Therefore ForeBonesJay statement was not bad.

[ErickRedfieldh]

I mean, you don't see Bear Grylls running everywhere, do you?

That'd be because Grylls takes a jeep ride between camera takes...

I'm sitting on the fence on the running = wet clothing from sweat issue. I do think there should be a mechanic involved that prevents run spam. Right now it's too easy to just run everywhere since the only thing preventing me from doing so is fatigue, which doesn't rise that much. But removing clothing to dry it out seems too tedious right now. So maybe meet halfway?

You run for awhile and you gain Sweating status. Then, if you stop running, your cold bar starts shooting sky high. So you've a few choices: keep running and a) stop and make a fire; b) get to a stove and make a fire; c) get someplace warm. After a bit of time, the status goes away and you can continue on (good time to do some crafting).

I disagree that all physical activities would cause you to sweat. They take up enough time for the amount of resources we get that if feels like we're moving slow to prevent sweating already. But say you ran for awhile and got the status then went foraging? Bad juju....

[FoneBoneJay]

It seems to me that walking and running the same distance burns the same number of calories, but when you walk it takes longer. I think there should be more of a benefit for walking. I mean, you don't see Bear Grylls running everywhere, do you?

If you are using Bear Grylls as a model of survival you are one of the guys who won't ever make it beyond 10 days lol

Actually Good ole Bear expends massive amounts of wasted energy doing fantastic stunts and taking multiple risks would when compounded in a survival situation would get him killed. In survival More risk = shorter lifespan. Once you start having condition issues pile up you are almost guaranteed to die.

I do agree that running and walking need to be modeled better but its ok for Alpha at least we can move around.

[FoneBoneJay]

About 60% of energy expended during exercise is heat, the more you move the more you heat, however because you body is a three dimensional object with different mass to surface area ratios that heating is not consistent. It is entirely possible to be sweating and even profusely so on your chest and where your body naturally folds but also to have your finger tips to be so cold so as to not be able to strike a match.

I think that this is quite hmmm. While the first part is true the second part lacks and is not necessary true. While doing anaerobic exercise the body produces Lactate and elevates the pulse and raises the blood pressure. This results in pressing the blood into the outer extremities with the effect of the distribution of temperature into them. For the described effect your core body temperature has to be already lower than normal.

It seems to me that walking and running the same distance burns the same number of calories, but when you walk it takes longer. I think there should be more of a benefit for walking. I mean, you don't see Bear Grylls running everywhere, do you?

Bear Grylls is also a fraud and this is a series that is not produced, like it is shown. Also he shows often too risky things, like jumping into unknown water from greater heights. But the first part is correct, this should not be. The difference should be at least 4 - 5 times the energy consumption of walking, for running.

Also to add that running in the wilderness is more dangerous, than walking. One sprained ankle could mean death.

Edit: Necessary muscle pump and joint movement to warm up a cold extremity.

To warm up an extremity is also necessary movement of the joint adjusted to the part which should be warmed up, because the movement of the muscles of the calf or forearm provides the necessary pressure to press the blood into the cold tissue. That is the reason why running and jumping warms up the feet and why we when we have cold hands we open and close the hand to warm up the fingers. Therefore ForeBonesJay statement was not bad.

You are more right than I am. My point on that was that running heats the body up faster than walking. Both use energy, but running uses substantially more energy, causes more fatigue, and more heat is produced. Larger animals such as buffalo have little trouble surviving the cold in the winter because they are well insulated but also because they have a large volume to surface area ratio.

[elloco999]

...I'm sitting on the fence on the running = wet clothing from sweat issue. I do think there should be a mechanic involved that prevents run spam. Right now it's too easy to just run everywhere since the only thing preventing me from doing so is fatigue, which doesn't rise that much. But removing clothing to dry it out seems too tedious right now. So maybe meet halfway?

You run for awhile and you gain Sweating status. Then, if you stop running, your cold bar starts shooting sky high. So you've a few choices: keep running and a) stop and make a fire; b) get to a stove and make a fire; c) get someplace warm. After a bit of time, the status goes away and you can continue on (good time to do some crafting)...

I like the way you think I think this would be a good solution.

It seems to me that walking and running the same distance burns the same number of calories, but when you walk it takes longer. I think there should be more of a benefit for walking. I mean, you don't see Bear Grylls running everywhere, do you?

If you are using Bear Grylls as a model of survival you are one of the guys who won't ever make it beyond 10 days lol

lol

[pulkmees]

They should definitely put sweating in.There is currently no penalty for running with 30kg all day.

Also going up a hill should have the same effect.

[EternityTide]

If you want a survival role model, you ought to look at Ray Mears. Despite the attempt by the media to ruin his career as a bushcraft expert (especially in the light of his involvement in the manhunt for the murderer Raoul Moat, for which he was wrongfully derided by people who did not understand what he was doing, which was as a tracker for the police), he remains one of the foremost experts in his field, and actually knows what he is talking about. His viewpoint is more on living in cooperation with the natural environment, rather than Bear Grylls's "conquering the untameable wilderness" which is based on his former military training. Ray chooses a more quiet, intelligent way of survival as opposed to Bear's action packed nonsense that is more focused on masculinity than proper survival.

[Dark]

Larger animals such as buffalo have little trouble surviving the cold in the winter because they are well insulated but also because they have a large volume to surface area ratio.

The Bergmann's rule. But there is a lot of good criticism towards this rule.

If you want a survival role model, you ought to look at Ray Mears.

Didn't knew him before your post. So thank you. I have looked at three episodes from a series with him. They were really good.

[EternityTide]

no problem. He's written a number of good books too (the quote in my signature is from his latest one), He has a nice, even way of looking at survival, which I'm more comfortable with than the people who insist that the wilderness is a terrible, unpleasant place.

Anyway, back on topic, large animals are better suited to colder climates when enough food is available. This is witnessed in the period of gigantism that affected most animals in the last ice age (examples include Woolly mammoths, Sabre tooth cats, Direwolves(yes, they actually existed at one point) and the Woolly Rhinocerous) when the ice age ended, these large animals died out due to competition from smaller, lighter, faster species that were better suited to a warmer climate.

[FoneBoneJay]

They should definitely put sweating in.There is currently no penalty for running with 30kg all day.

Also going up a hill should have the same effect.

Agree. Would not be that hard to implement.