User Experience Tuning


FoneBoneJay

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I am hoping the time to search each drawer/cupboard will be reduced. I spend about 2/3 of the game inside structures searching them cleaning them out, moving the goods to fridge and then offloading to carry "take only what you need to survive"

Here is the main point I have... I have found the game to not be very challenging except for the cheap ways you die.

This is my survival list for Recon Travel, when I am moving from structure to structure or short travel distances, 1-2 hours in one direction.

1-Lightest piece of wood

Premium weather gear 15+ degrees if possible

Sewing kit

Basic Tool kit

Prybar

Less than 1 gal water (potable only)

Less than 20 matches (wood if possible)

1 tinder bundle

1 acclerant

1 can of soda

2-3 pieces of cooked meat with 750+ calories in the 90% condition range

1 dose of pain killers

1 dose of antibiotics

1 bandage

1 bottle of antiseptic

If I go to hunt with the gun I'll take bullets too and then lose the tool kit and prybar. I only hunt on clear days in good weather. I plan to only hunt in a 1-2 hour radius of a fixed shelter.

For long distance travel, more than 4 hours in one direction, I pack more firewood, in-case I have to build a fire some place in the open.

If I avoid wolves altogether and just hunt the deer I figure I can easily make it to 30 days and probably 45 given then snares for rabbits. I have had success attacking wolves without the gun beating them after they attack me armed with the prybar.

As long as you can rest and recover this seems like a risky but efficient way to get food if you start with 75-100% condition. I wouldn't chance attacking a wolf with less than 80% unless I was already starving. Always attack just one wolf. If there are two in an area or within sight it is not a good idea to try to take one, because even if you succeed and the other one wanders while u harvest meat you are screwed unless you have the gun. In which case you're screwed again because you can't harvest all the meat in time without freezing or having the meat freeze.

Two tweaks to be made. The fridge and freeze both hold 88lbs, the oven too. The fridge should hold about this, the freeze should hold half as much, the oven somewhere in between but closer to the freezer in amount. I speak of the volume if you look at the volume of a fridge as advertised online you'll find the freezer on the type of models in the game don't hold exactly the same amount and that should be adjusted. I think its about 16-32 cubic feet. It doesn't matter in total but the size does matter.

The reason it is an issue is drawers hold 11lbs and I dont know about the cupboards but the fridges and oven are my preferred supply depot because I can move everything in a house into them or in an area into one location and I dont have to sort it I just store it, then the structure either has it or doesn't. Once I do the initial inventory and dump it all in that one locale it is there. It might be better to store foods outside in the containers outside I've read that keeps them fresher longer but I don't know I am not that far into the game yet.

I also want to point out the density of stuff in structures and structures themselves feels too crowded.

I don't like the weak ice instant death and I dont like how wolves don't hunt in packs and work as individuals. That AI behavior would make sense for a cat like a mountain lion or puma, cougar etc but dogs, foxes, coyote, wolves, especially wolves are pack animals. The whole Alpha term comes from that.

I know it is just Alpha hoping those things get fixed. Also would love to see the ability to build my own shelter some way some how to fend off the weather or more sparse locations in the upcoming maps. Maybe with a few really big open but desolate areas. More living off the land than living off the placed items.

Also has any thought been given to making it so that we can sustain ourselves for longer. Really right now besides, falling through weak ice, with zero survival chance, or being attacked by a single wolf, offering minimal survival chance, un-medicated food poising is massively over powered in terms of death. If I get food poisoning yeah sure its going to be bad, but people did not die from food poisoning exclusively, they die from dehydration or choking on their vomit if they sleep while weak, or if they get pnemonia, which is also something that should be modeled since we are in the cold weather constantly.

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One more thought. Boiling water, and melting snow.

A. You should need a kettle to do this.

B. There should be a carrying cost to the kettle, you know that thing on the stove with no purpose at present. Lets use that.

C. Melting snow should have a gather cost in time and risk. You should be exposed to wolves while doing that and exposed to the weather.

Right now we can magically generate snow to melt without containing it and magically boil water without a container. Clearly this needs to be advanced.

Snow gathering is easier than ice gathering, can be done with bare hands and reduces to about 1/10 the volume. At most you should be able to melt down about a 5 gal bucket sized amount of snow into about 1/2 gallon of ice. If you have ever tried to do that its a pain in the ass, another idea, is that indoors at 40F snow would melt over say 24-48 hours and potentially be another way to gather unsafe water.

Ice will melt to about the same volume as water. Anybody who lives up north who melts ice or snow will tell you they prefer ice because it is less work than diking around with snow. Try it melting a 5 gallon bucket filled with snow in your basement this winter and you'll see what I mean. You only get a half gallon of water or so.

Or just see this... http://www.dickersonsresort.com/snow-vs-water/

http://www.containersupplycompany.com/images/5galpl.pdf

Looking at this if a 5gal bucket is really only 14" high 6.25" is about 44% x 5gal = about 2.2 gallons of unsafe water. Not bad for 24-48 hours. But that is packed snow according to what they are saying and the interior in the game is only 40F unless its in front of a fire, which usually only burns for an hour or two, I would have to assume the folks in the above example had their house at a steady 68-72 deg F. Which would more rapidly melt the water.

In any event. A huge volume of snow = a smaller volume of water, ice is more compact, easier to fit in a backpack or bucket as it were. Snow is everywhere so it would probably be the best to simulate.

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I am hoping the time to search each drawer/cupboard will be reduced. I spend about 2/3 of the game inside structures searching them cleaning them out, moving the goods to fridge and then offloading to carry "take only what you need to survive"

Here is the main point I have... I have found the game to not be very challenging except for the cheap ways you die.

This is absolutely true. I have now reached a point where I almost completely control the game.

At the same time many people have complained bitterly that the game is too hard, and we do not want to lose them. I have seen both issues in numerous topics, and I think that the solution would be a difficult setting.

Perhaps you should join us, and lobby for that ;)

1-Lightest piece of wood

Premium weather gear 15+ degrees if possible

Sewing kit

Basic Tool kit

Prybar

Less than 1 gal water (potable only)

Less than 20 matches (wood if possible)

1 tinder bundle

1 acclerant

1 can of soda

2-3 pieces of cooked meat with 750+ calories in the 90% condition range

My load is usually 10-15 kg. I would leave the toolkit and prybar at home. I also carry only a few matches of low quality. I take only salty crackers and energy bars and MREs because they are the lightest sources of calories.

1 dose of pain killers

1 dose of antibiotics

1 bandage

1 bottle of antiseptic

Very important! Going out without a complete set of medicine can be the end of you.

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Quite right, I forgot to list that, but I never unload medication or antibiotics. There is no reason to because they weigh so little and the impact of not having them is huge. Their importance is greater than that of water, since you can forage for the materials to make water except for are almost never without matches. Forgot to list em :).

I do think they need to modify the way food poisoning is modeled. It is too cheap to lose 100% health from it. If should have an effect, it should dehydrate you but it should not kill you.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I do think they need to modify the way food poisoning is modeled. It is too cheap to lose 100% health from it. If should have an effect, it should dehydrate you but it should not kill you.

Agreed. I can understand if it was poisoning from raw meat since that could be potentially deadly if not treated, but from the basic foods like peanut butter, salty crackers, pork and beans, soda, etc etc it's just a little unnecessary.

I am hoping the time to search each drawer/cupboard will be reduced. I spend about 2/3 of the game inside structures searching them cleaning them out, moving the goods to fridge and then offloading to carry "take only what you need to survive".

Agreed. They should either shorten all searching times in general or vary search times randomly. For example, currently the searching time for cabinets is the same every time. But realistically, there's gonna be different amounts of "junk" in different containers. I'd say just make it vary randomly, just like how item spawning places vary.

Here is the main point I have... I have found the game to not be very challenging except for the cheap ways you die.

I think the best way to solve this problem to allow players to select a difficulty when they start a new sandbox mode. This way we can keep the interest of people like you who want more of a challenge AND the people who would like the game easier or just how it is currently. It could be done like this:

Easy - (Fewer wolves, wolves are slower or less aggressive, you can get closer to deer before they start to run away, food items spawn with higher conditions, maybe a few extra bullets, foraging for reclaimed wood regens faster, more resistance to the cold, etc.)

Normal - (Similar to above but much less handicaps.)

Moderate - (Pretty much how it is now, or at least in my opinion. :) )

Advanced - (More wolves, some wolves hunt in small packs of 3 or so, more aggressive, less deer, food naturally spawns less or with lower condition, etc.)

Dangerous - (Most wolves hunt in couples or packs, more aggressive, Less quality clothing+food+meds etc, much fewer deer, etc.)

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I'd rather see the sandbox have settings to determine many aspects yourself like sliders for

1) amount of wolves

2) aggressiveness of wolves

3) amount of deer

4) amount of food loot

5) amount of tools loot

6) amount of clothing loot

7) weather (lots of good weather <-> lots of bad weather)

etc.

As it is a sandbox, you should be able to tweak the experience every time. Maybe make some presets and a random button so you can also start quickly if you want to do so.

For the story mode however, a difficulty setting functioning much like LilAmy described would be preferable.

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I'd rather see the sandbox have settings to determine many aspects yourself like sliders for

1) amount of wolves

2) aggressiveness of wolves

3) amount of deer

4) amount of food loot

5) amount of tools loot

6) amount of clothing loot

7) weather (lots of good weather <-> lots of bad weather)

etc.

As it is a sandbox, you should be able to tweak the experience every time. Maybe make some presets and a random button so you can also start quickly if you want to do so.

For the story mode however, a difficulty setting functioning much like LilAmy described would be preferable.

Oh good idea! I didn't even think of that :)

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The game essentially puts the player against nature and its principles right? Therefore, I think sliders would dilute the challenge and experience. If your not smart enough, your dead. Tough Sh^%.

How would leader boards work? Would the achievement of surviving 30, 40, 50 + days mean anything if the player is in control of all the variables? Those that are struggling (as every player once would have) will eventually become more effective at surviving. The fun is getting better! The challenge for the devs is therefore to make the game harder / more complex to keep the game stimulating. Having said that, food poisoning is way too deadly in its current format! But then again, eating dirty wolf meat all and everyday, can't be good for ya!

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The game essentially puts the player against nature and its principles right? Therefore, I think sliders would dilute the challenge and experience. If your not smart enough, your dead. Tough Sh^%.

How would leader boards work? Would the achievement of surviving 30, 40, 50 + days mean anything if the player is in control of all the variables? Those that are struggling (as every player once would have) will eventually become more effective at surviving. The fun is getting better! The challenge for the devs is therefore to make the game harder / more complex to keep the game stimulating. Having said that, food poisoning is way too deadly in its current format! But then again, eating dirty wolf meat all and everyday, can't be good for ya!

That's true. But the leaderboards could be done if it was just difficulty modes like I suggested. There would be an individual leaderboard for each difficulty.

Of course, I'm still fine with the both increasing the overall difficulty, or keeping the current difficulty. It seems the majority is for more challenges though so I'm sure we'll get to some new layers of that kind of stuff in upcoming patches. :)

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Well, since the leaderboard functionality is build into steam, it probably wasn't much effort to use it in the game. All that's really needed is probably to upload the time you survived the moment you die. Anyway, leaderboards are already implemented so those resources are spent already.

Having leadersboards function well with a sandbox that has multiple settings is something I'm sure the devs can figure out. But it could be as simple as only adding your survival time to the boards when you select (one of) the preset(s) the devs have set.

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I really do not favor adjusting the difficulty at all. Reasons are numerous. First is development time/resources. 2nd is implementation is never as good as a level playing field. 3rd, making survival artificially easier is bullshit which is the heart of the argument I'd put up against that. You can't get cold slower or live longer because there is more meat, you can't have fewer wolves or less aggressive wolves without impacting the game in a pretty negative way. Should the game have a learning curve? Yes and no, should there be a baby mode or even a more difficult mode? No not really.

I have not lived even 10 days yet but have spent maybe 50 hours learning to be better. A less difficult mode would do 2 things which are CARDINAL SINS IN GAMING!

1. It would make my learning experience come easier and cheapen the experience of leaning the dos and don'ts of survival. Subtle things like watch you back for wolves, when you spot one, look for another one since you can learn that you can take one on in certain situations but against two wolves you can't win once one is attacking you.

2. It would accelerate the rate at which the game becomes just another game rather than an engaging and challenging pursuit of survival.

The whole reason players choose to try to survive in the world that has been created and established already here in the Alpha of The Long Dark and not in the real world is to be able to take the risks and try to survive without the consequences of getting it wrong. Say you make it 50 days in TLD, but die from something silly and you never make it 50 days again, you've reached your apex. In the real world the consequences of making failing survival is game over for good. We want all the challenge but I do not support artificial easy modes, short cuts, or modes that modify values of something just by flicking a "switch" before entering the situation. Not cool at all.

I would like to spend less time overall opening and closing cupboard doors though. Yes searching and foraging is part of survival and I'd like to find more items scattered in the world outside. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of items in the new map outside to be found which is an unfortunate departure from Mystery Lake. However there are way more places to look in Coastal Highway which is great.

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Leader boards are cool and everything but a waste of resources, build the game first then bother with a leader board on whos the best at a great game.

I have to agree here with FoneBoneJay -- better to worry about providing a good set of achievement leaderboard rankings once everything else has been put in place.

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Leader boards are cool and everything but a waste of resources, build the game first then bother with a leader board on whos the best at a great game.

I have to agree here with FoneBoneJay -- better to worry about providing a good set of achievement leaderboard rankings once everything else has been put in place.

No argument there. I would also build a solid game first and worry about the leaderboards later. But the leaderboards have already been implemented, therefor the point is moot. Maybe they felt the boards were necessary for feedback on how long players were able to survive while playing the alpha.

If the devs have a overhaul planned for the leaderboards, I'm pretty sure they'll wait until the game is much further along. The current version if working well enough.

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I think as more areas are added, livability goes up because you have access to more resources. I think the ability to craft some more goodies would help too.

Id like to see an emergency shelter and a bear trap if they add bears, mountain lions or cougar would also be pretty damn cool. I'm going to start out my next video series on a 100 day survival goal. I think it is possible the only thing I'm pretty wary of is food sickness.

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You're right. With the addition of the Coastal Highway map it became much easier to survive for longer because of the added resources.

There was a feature in v.138 where you could make an emergency snow shelter but that was removed in v.152. Not sure why though. I never had a reason to build one, but at some point I decided to build one just to see how that worked. But to my surprise the button was gone... Maybe nobody ever used it and that's why it's removed. Even though I never used it, I did like the idea of having something to fall back on when needed. I hope this gets put back into the game, or else some other form of emergency shelter.

Good luck with reaching that 100 day goal! It is certainly possible.

Do keep in mind though that with the upcoming update this week your savegame will be invalidated. That means you'll have to restart after the update! It would be a shame if you're off to a great start and then have all your hard work be in vain because you need to restart. Just thought you might want to know upfront.

Also, in my experience I get food poisoning most often from pre-packed food that is below 20% condition while meat as low as 1% is usually fine. Of all the times I've gotten food poisoning it was pre-packed food 9 out of 10 times. That's just my experience and it may be just coincidence, but maybe it will help you stave of that food poisoning.

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Appreciate the heads up. I'll just run two copies of the build until I die, I don't think I'll make it 100 days, maybe 20, historically I've only made it half that but I think I have the concepts and skills now to make it.

An emergency snow shelter would be best used for when you need to immediately sleep, either far from shelter from wandering, which if the maps ever get so big, or get released so frequently or become randomly generated to a degree would become necessary. When you roll an ankle and want to sleep it off until you feel better. For when you have the food poisoning but are 20-30% points from the nearest shelter may as well spend an hour building one, if you have wood start a fire and get some sleep and hope for the best.

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Yeah, in an emergency it would be nice to have the option to make some sort of shelter.

Once you've made it past 20 or so days, getting to 100 isn't really that far off. Once you make it through your first month, you'll only die by making a (stupid) mistake, being very careless or just plain old bad luck. Like spraining your ankle while being stalked by a wolf that turns out to be a super wolf that kills you even though you were at 90%. I was glad my daughter didn't here what came out of my mouth when that happened! I still have hope I'll be able to teach her not to use such language ;)

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The game essentially puts the player against nature and its principles right? Therefore, I think sliders would dilute the challenge and experience. If your not smart enough, your dead. Tough Sh^%.

How would leader boards work? Would the achievement of surviving 30, 40, 50 + days mean anything if the player is in control of all the variables? Those that are struggling (as every player once would have) will eventually become more effective at surviving. The fun is getting better! The challenge for the devs is therefore to make the game harder / more complex to keep the game stimulating. Having said that, food poisoning is way too deadly in its current format! But then again, eating dirty wolf meat all and everyday, can't be good for ya!

Dealing with the leader-boards would be easy. Personally I never finish a game because it gets boring after a while. My recommendation on the leader-boards vs various difficulty levels as well as a custom value with sliders, there are several different ways that it is commonly addressed. In some games you just will have boards for the default difficulties and then for others you have an overall difficulty percentage that is adjusted by all the sliders. At that point you can either do some sort of direct conversion of days or even deal in points that can also be adjusted based on the difficulty percentage. All these values are going to be arbitrary as the difficulty percentages would be very hard to actually tune correctly. There could also be several different breakpoints between the various levels of difficulty. Having 100 wolves on a map is not going to be much easier then 150 wolves because in either case the density is going to be too great to really matter. The same goes for 1 wolf or 2 wolves as in either case the wolves are just to sparse to make any difference.

Other things that could be tweaked could be certain modifiers such as carry weight or affliction chance. There are really hundreds of different values that could be put into the sliders and act as tweaks that could allow a player to have a little more control over their game.

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