Torch exploit

[Tsayers1068]

Ok, say you want to light a fire and only use 1 match.  Your skill is low, you have no accelerant, but you do have a "magic" firelighter:  an unlit torch--not a new, crafted one but one you've extinguished after either crafting it or removing it from a previous fire.  All you need do is light your torch with 1 match , and presto!  You can now use your magic firelighter to repeatedly try to start your fire until it lights.

 

This obviously defeats the intent of the game's fire lighting system and should imo be fixed.  The fix is simple: only allow torches that are newly crafted or previously unlit to be lit with a match, all previously lit & extinguished torches must be lit at a fire.  This is really how it should be anyway--irl what would allow you to light a torch with a match is the fuel-soaked rag wrapped around the end, which immediately burns up.  Just try lighting a half burnt stick of wood that size with a match, you'll see what I mean.  But since you can light a new, crafted torch with a match due to the fuel soaked rag still being present you would (and should) totally still be able to use it for repeated fire lighting attempts on 1 match.

 

This would make it a little harder to drive off wolves but would really just make things more interesting: you would have to either have a new torch handy to light or carry a lit one around with you.  Imo it would just make gameplay a little more immersive.

[Hotzn]

This topic has been discussed amply in other threads anf for a long time. The "torch exploit" has been criticized since early days, and in aversion of the game long gone, Hinterland introduced the brand: If you pulled from a fire, you would not get a torch, but a brand, which had lesser capabilities than a torch. Mainly, it could not be re-lit once burned out. The brand was widely acclaimed as a good solution to the problem (only downside: it didn't disappear from the game world). For reasons left unexplained, Hinterland scrapped the brand again and re-introduced torch-pulling. Do a forum search for "torch" and "brand" to learn more about it.

[greggbert]

I was so happy when they brought back the torches.  On a logical level the brands made sense but I hated them nonetheless.  TBH torch pulling is not a very powerful thing the edge it gives you is minor.  Plus, have you EVER been in danger of running out of matches?  I certainly have not.  

[hozz1235]

I don't really see the

On 7/11/2018 at 2:51 PM, Tsayers1068 said:

Ok, say you want to light a fire and only use 1 match.  Your skill is low, you have no accelerant, but you do have a "magic" firelighter:  an unlit torch--not a new, crafted one but one you've extinguished after either crafting it or removing it from a previous fire.  All you need do is light your torch with 1 match , and presto!  You can now use your magic firelighter to repeatedly try to start your fire until it lights.

 

This obviously defeats the intent of the game's fire lighting system and should imo be fixed.  The fix is simple: only allow torches that are newly crafted or previously unlit to be lit with a match, all previously lit & extinguished torches must be lit at a fire.  This is really how it should be anyway--irl what would allow you to light a torch with a match is the fuel-soaked rag wrapped around the end, which immediately burns up.  Just try lighting a half burnt stick of wood that size with a match, you'll see what I mean.  But since you can light a new, crafted torch with a match due to the fuel soaked rag still being present you would (and should) totally still be able to use it for repeated fire lighting attempts on 1 match.

 

This would make it a little harder to drive off wolves but would really just make things more interesting: you would have to either have a new torch handy to light or carry a lit one around with you.  Imo it would just make gameplay a little more immersive.

I don't really see this as an exploit.  Think about it, how quickly does a match burn out compared to a lit torch?

[MarrowStone]

Yet another reason why I wish they kept brands and brandishing.... it was much easier to fend off predators, harder to exploit, and them not despawning really wasn't much of an issue.

[MrWolf]

On 7/20/2018 at 4:28 PM, greggbert said:

Plus, have you EVER been in danger of running out of matches?

Oh yes, in Interloper.  Sometimes I find a lot and have a hundred matches.  Sometimes I only find a few boxes.

On this topic, I think "exploit" is the wrong word, this just now torches work.  To me, an "exploit" means taking advantage of a bug to use something in an unintended way.

 

[Pillock]

I really like the idea of only being able to relight used torches with a proper fire (or maybe another lit torch?)

Although I much preferred the old brands from the exploity-pull-torches-from-a-fire mechanic we had before and have had since - both in terms of their effect on gameplay, and also because they just looked really nice! - in the end it doesn't really matter what they are called or what their graphical representation is. It's just the fact that you can pull 10 torches from a fire and then relight them as much as you need to, and this seriously undermines the utility of flares, lanterns, lamp oil and, especially, crafted torches.

The method of one-match firelighting using a torch is fine in itself, as @Tsayers1068 says - but it would feel much more satisfying and less like an exploit if you had to craft a torch out of rag and oil in order to get this benefit.

[Stone]

I recognise, and 'exploit' the 'unrealistic' pulling of torches from fires. I see why people don't like this but I still prefer it to the alternatives. And hey, if it's an exploit you dislike then don't use it. Brands are more realistic to pull from fires yet, in real life, it's a rare you can pull a stick that warms you and lights your way for several minutes. Impossible even. There's lots of aspects of firemaking you could pick apart. I.e. why can't you use all your tinder to make sure that one match lights? Anyhow, for the moment, I'm happy with torches as is.

[Hotzn]

On 20.7.2018 at 10:28 PM, greggbert said:

I was so happy when they brought back the torches.  On a logical level the brands made sense but I hated them nonetheless.  TBH torch pulling is not a very powerful thing the edge it gives you is minor.  Plus, have you EVER been in danger of running out of matches?  I certainly have not.  

Try an Interloper run and do not use torches for a new experience concerning matches.

[Stone]

@Hotzn the horror!

[Kayosiv]

On 7/20/2018 at 2:33 PM, hozz1235 said:

I don't really see this as an exploit.  Think about it, how quickly does a match burn out compared to a lit torch?

Taking a burning piece of wood (torch) from a burning fire and using it to then light another fight is not an exploit.

Taking a burning piece of wood (torch) from a burning fire and then immediately extinguishing it, then when you need to light a fire, just lighting that half burned piece of wood with 100% light chance because all torches light with 1 match 100% of the time whether taken from a fire or crafted, is the exploit.

Having a fire lit makes it so you have 100% chance to light all fires because if the "light fire with torch" option fails you can just do it again 3+ times until the fire is lit. It takes all the match management and risk-reward design work around fires and fire-starting pointless AND is unrealistic to boot.

[Tsayers1068]

I guess for now I'll just refuse to carry torches unless A) they're newly crafted, or B) I'm already carrying a lit torch (can you light a torch with a lit flare?) to light the non crafted one with.  That way I can't forget and use a match for what I still hold to be an exploit which I'd rather play without.

[Doc Feral]

I'm too scared to try it, does lighting a torch with a fire still paralyzes you?

The "exploit" complaint comes up often. Using multiple tinder wworith one match, or preventing torches to be re-lit when under 40% condition (real torches need oiled cloth and at that point they would be enough to keep burning but not to catch fire) would be reasonable.
I previously suggested the new resource "rags", coming as a leftover from harvested clothes, failed repairs, used bandages or just crafted from cloth (two or three from a cloth) to make torch crafting more carefree without using too much non renewable cloth.

[MrWolf]

7 hours ago, Doc Feral said:

I'm too scared to try it, does lighting a torch with a fire still paralyzes you?

Thankfully, that was fixed in one of the hotfixes a while back.  I've had no issues lighting a torch from a fire or from another torch since then.

[huntergathers]

It was mostly about having less game assets, which makes the game run smoother. I could see them being a different thing, because pulling a perfect torch from a fire isn't realistic, but I like having a smart option to conserve matches early game as well when I don't have any books or accelerant. You can always abstain from using it if you want the challenge, of course. No need to take the tool away from everyone completely, but it would make sense to see a different type of torch come from a fire, or maybe a burn chance from extinguishing a freshly pulled and high quality torch. There aren't many burn chances in the game besides actually walking over a fire, and it does basically seem like you're putting it out with your hands, not sticking it in the snow or anything. The thing is, nobody used the crafted torches besides as lighters anyways from what I saw, because they had that huge utility as firestarters and lanterns did not, so it just made sense to use them that way and make the most out of the lamp oil you had to put into them which didn't seem like something they really needed to have in the recipe. I'd love to see them needing tinder for each light, to take some of that extra tinder that becomes useless late game out of my shelves. Maybe needing to pack them with tinder before you use them after that first light. Hopefully firestarting becomes a more "active" process in the end, like the cooking overhaul and less of random chance.

[Pillock]

I think the easiest fix would be to cap the condition of a torch you pull from a fire at, say, 25%, and also make it so you can only relight with a match torches that are 26% or above. (maybe lower condition torches could be still re-lit from a fire or even perhaps from another torch?)

That would fix it for me.

That would mean you could make a torch using lantern fuel and rags to give you the match-saving fire-starting technique; and you could pull torches from a fire in order to break them down into sticks if you want to regain fuel from a fire you no longer need. But if you pull a torch and it goes out, it's dead - just like brands used to be, except you'd still be able to harvest a stick from it.

I think this would bring crafted torches, flares, lanterns and lantern fuel back into prominence as valuable survival tools - because at the moment they're just unnecessary luxury items that you accumulate and seldom use.

[Naia]

Clearly a topic that have dividing opinions. So if Hinterland decided to do something, they would end up upsetting a lot of people no matter which option they chose. Seem to me the best way to "fix" this, is by doing nothing and let people play the game however they want.

Personally I would rather see them spending their time on something that almost everyone would see as improvements, like a craftable hat for example.

[Kayosiv]

On 8/4/2018 at 12:33 AM, Naia said:

Clearly a topic that have dividing opinions.

I don't think there are divided opinions. Lighting torches 100% at all conditions when fires don't light 100% of the time is unrealistic and is an exploit of game mechanics. Does anyone actually disagree with that?

[MrWolf]

16 hours ago, Kayosiv said:

Lighting torches 100% at all conditions when fires don't light 100% of the time is unrealistic and is an exploit of game mechanics. Does anyone actually disagree with that?

Yes, I disagree.  I agree that it's unrealistic but I disagree that it's an exploit.  I guess it's a matter of semantics.  When I see "exploit" mentioned in these forums, I take its meaning as cheating the game.  Exploit also means making full use of and deriving benefit from a resource, so I can say I'm exploiting an animal in the game when I harvest all available items from it.  I don't think that's the conveyed meaning of "exploit" in this discussion, though.  Always being able to light a torch and not always being able to light a fire is just the way the game works, no matter how unrealistic it might be, so it's not an exploit in the cheating sense.

At times when matches are scarce, I appreciate the ability to use one match to light a torch and use that torch to light a fire, in case it takes multiple tries.  I like that I can make a fire, pull several torches out of it, and use them to make my way through a cave or mine, dropping the nearly spent torch and lighting another one from it.  If the developers change the game and torches no longer work that way, or we go back to pulling a brand from a fire instead of a torch, I'll adapt to it and find different ways of doing things.  Right now I'm happy with the torches.  There are many unrealistic things in the game, and I sometimes chuckle (or headbutt the wall) at how some things work (or don't work), but it doesn't hurt the game's immersion for me.

 

[MarrowStone]

Im fine with crafted torches lighting 100 percent of the time due to the kerosene/oil and cloth on it, but one shouldnt be able to re-light a stick they pulled out of the fire...

I never craft full torches, the only time I ever did was when brandishing/brands was a thing and I had no flares. 

[Nogen]

6 minutes ago, MarrowStone said:

I never craft full torches, the only time I ever did was when brandishing/brands was a thing and I had no flares. 

Personally, I always carry 1 crafted torch at 100% condition. The idea behind this is to have a lasting solution to keep wolves at bay if needed. I don't want to be stalk by a tenacious wolf and having on me only one torch at 17%. I want to be sure to have time to keep the wolf away long enough to get to shelter.

Additionally, in the same way, I want to have a reliable and lasting source of light if needed. Again, I don't want to be stuck in a cave and waste a match for 3 minutes of light.

Of course, I could carry multiple low condition torches that I pulled from a fire. But while it save you cloths and fuel (I don't count stick as they're infinite), I am not ready to make this trade off against the weight to carry 3 or 4 low condition torches. They weight 0.3 kg each and that not negligible.

[MarrowStone]

1 hour ago, Nogen said:

I don't want to be stalk by a tenacious wolf and having on me only one torch at 17%

17 percent is all it takes to throw the torch. And they pounce on me if i just back away while holding it now, even with flares. I used to always keep one at 100 percent when brandishing was a thing. But now i just hold 2 pulled torches.

Bringing back brands would encourage me to craft  actual torches more.

You are right about the weight tradeoff though and if you dont know the layout of the caves or want to loot one you definitely are better off with a full torch.

[TheEldritchGod]

Uhhh... I know about this "exploit", but I never do it. I just don't bother. Getting 95%-100% chance of starting a fire with a match is easy, so I just don't bother. The torch lighting thing is an extra step. I only light fires from pulled torches when I'm trying to power level my firestarting, which takes a day or two. Oh wait, you don't just sit there while you are cooking things and light a bazillion fires, do you?

[Stone]

@Kayosiv divided opinion here. The current torch mechanism suits me fine. So it's unrealistic. So is having a ton of nice dry tinder and not being able to us it all to ensure a fire starts! And I don't follow the thing about being able to light a torch when you can't light a fire. You can't light a torch in a gale. It goes out.

But as @MrWolf says, work with the game, if the game changes, adapt. I'm also with @Naia - I'd rather the Devs add something than tinker.

Lastly, the ultimate fire starting fix would be to make it like a sub game: you get a little fire interface popup where you can see what you've got to burn and position it - tinder there, a stick here, and here, the place your match .. steady... Give it a little blow.. add a stick there, blow a little here, protect it from wind there... And if you get it right: fire! 

 

 

 

 

 

[ThePancakeLady]

9 minutes ago, Stone said:

@Kayosiv divided opinion here. The current torch mechanism suits me fine. So it's unrealistic. So is having a ton of nice dry tinder and not being able to us it all to ensure a fire starts! And I don't follow the thing about being able to light a torch when you can't light a fire. You can't light a torch in a gale. It goes out.

But as @MrWolf says, work with the game, if the game changes, adapt. I'm also with @Naia - I'd rather the Devs add something than tinker.

Lastly, the ultimate fire starting fix would be to make it like a sub game: you get a little fire interface popup where you can see what you've got to burn and position it - tinder there, a stick here, and here, the place your match .. steady... Give it a little blow.. add a stick there, blow a little here, protect it from wind there... And if you get it right: fire! 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing personal. But, the fire "mini-game"? Nupe. Nupe nupe NUPE. I have had to make fires that way IRL, and it was a pain, but necessary. I don't need to have an unnecessary pain added to the game. I can adapt and get used to *almost* anything in video games I like. That, however, just made my hackles raise up. And I don;t have hackles, so that is saying a lot about how negatively the idea hits me. Give me more fun, significant gameplay content and options. Not mandatory mini-games to make necessary actions take more time and make me start to finally feel rage with the game. Frustration I can work through, Rage? Nupe. We already have RNG with firestarting. Adding "blow into it this way, put your sticks on the teepee at just this angle, with just this much space between them, regardless of what effect collision has on items in game, then fan while blowing, drip fish oil in at 1 drop per second, and **maybe** get fire...* would just make people who are already frustrated with the RNG in the game, completely furious. 

 

This would be something for a Modder to do, when and if we get official modding support for the game. Then people who want it, can download and run the mod. And the rest of us who don;t want to have to fuss with mechanics more than we already do, do not have to. 

 

TL;DR- I am against mini-games in TLD, tied to any required survival mechanics. I play for fun, not to increase my stress levels with needless padding.