Why are Wolf attacks Deadlier Than Bear Attacks?

[mystifeid]

1 hour ago, Pillock said:

It is counter-intuitive that bear attacks are less dangerous than wolf attacks if the player is already on low Condition

It's also counter intuitive that, with full health, going naked and bare-handed into a wolf struggle provides a good chance of death but not with a bear attack.

1 hour ago, Pillock said:

if you're surprised by an unexpected close encounter with a bear, there's very little you can do to avoid being mauled, and instant death in that scenario could potentially be very frustrating for the player

Getting jumped by a wolf without warning does happen. How is instant death in this scenario any different?

[Pillock]

6 minutes ago, mystifeid said:

It's also counter intuitive that going naked and bare-handed into a wolf struggle provides a good chance of death but not with a bear struggle.

Getting jumped by a wolf without warning does happen. How is instant death in this scenario any different?

Getting jumped by a wolf without warning does happen, but even at very close quarters there are still (theoretically) ways to avoid it - like getting a torch or flare lit to delay the charge (if you're very quick), or by starting to light a campfire (this takes 3 button presses and can be done in under 1 second!). With a bear, there is literally no way out of it, since they got rid of bears' fear of flares/torches/fire. I'm just saying that that could be a reason for it, not that it's a perfect or ideal system.

I can't speak from experience of going naked into animal attacks - I've never done it. I would have thought you're likely to die from a bear attack in those circumstances, though, given that you'll be both bleeding and freezing afterwards, and losing your single-figure condition on two measures at once? I've never died from a single wolf attack when on full condition beforehand, but maybe you do if you're naked and you don't fight back - that seems fair enough to me if it's the case.

The issue comes to the fore if you're on mid-low condition before the struggle, because that's when bear attacks are consistently less deadly/harmful than wolf ones - which doesn't make sense. I think the bear attack system works well as it is (except for the clothing damage / clothing protection issue mentioned earlier). I think maybe the wolf attack system could be brought more into line with it for consistency's sake (giving a similar 'safety net' to wolf encounters), but that could cause problems with the overall game balance/difficulty as well.

Maybe it's just that the bear is not trying to kill you? And wolves are? 

[mystifeid]

2 minutes ago, Pillock said:

like getting a torch or flare lit to delay the charge (if you're very quick), or by starting to light a campfire (this takes 3 button presses and can be done in under 1 second!).

Flare? Torch? Fire? Not possible. Here's a quick example of what I'm talking about and it comes from my very last wolf struggle in my current game: I crested a ridge and was immediately engaged in a wolf struggle. There had been no woof and no growl and there was absolutely no time to do anything beforehand. These sort of attacks are pretty rare but they are a lot more common than unintentionally walking into a bear's aggro range.

Ok maybe I don't walk naked into wolf struggles anymore but I have been jumped plenty of times, both with warning and without warning, in the opening stages of an Interloper game when I have very little protection afforded by my clothing and no weapon. I don't die so often now in these early stages but that has come at the expense of probably a hundred or more attempts when I did. Cause of death 95% of the time: wolf attack.

I just don't see the problem associated with being killed by a bear occasionally instead of it requiring something else to maybe finish you off afterward.

[cekivi]

5 hours ago, Pillock said:

I think that's possibly something that could be looked at (we used to be able to throw torches and flares at bears to scare them off, and it did lead to some memorable, heart-pounding moments for me in my games, so I don't really know why they changed it, personally).

I really, really miss this mechanic. The first time I was exploring TWM I accidentally walked up on a bear. It was a very tense moment of lighting a flare, throwing it to scare the bear, and then running for a climbing rope to get away before the bear came back. It was a lot of fun. 

[Pillock]

19 hours ago, mystifeid said:

I just don't see the problem associated with being killed by a bear occasionally instead of it requiring something else to maybe finish you off afterward.

I don't either, as long as you're on low-ish condition before the attack. But I wouldn't want to see bear attacks commonly be fatal when you're on high condition, because I think that would just be aggravating.

Wolf attacks that are really genuinely, totally unavoidable are very, very rare, I think. In fact, I can't remember a single occasion when I honestly couldn't have done something before the wolf was on top me. Honestly, not a single one. Bears are different - if you don't have a flare gun, the bear is going to maul you if it aggros and there's no handy tree trunk or building to bolt to nearby. If bear attacks were fatal, you'd often just press escape and restart the game as soon as it began its charge, because what's the point in waiting if you know you're going to die? With a wolf, there's always some chance of survival, however small, because you can fight back.

Maybe wolf attacks could be changed to give a higher chance that you black out before death, and the wolf leaves you alone to come to on single-figure Condition? That might fix the disparity a bit? Coming back from a near-death experience, nursing yourself carefully back to health, is fun and rewarding (as long as you're playing with slow condition regain!), whereas instant sudden unexpected death when you thought everything was going fine is... well, a bit aggravating.

[Pillock]

16 hours ago, cekivi said:

I really, really miss this mechanic. The first time I was exploring TWM I accidentally walked up on a bear. It was a very tense moment of lighting a flare, throwing it to scare the bear, and then running for a climbing rope to get away before the bear came back. It was a lot of fun. 

Same.

I was on Coastal Highway and had just been mauled by the bear who lives up the hill from the Townsite. I didn't see where he'd gone, so I was picking my way very cautiously back to shelter with an unlit flare in my hand just in case. Suddenly, there he was in front of me again, not 10 metres away and rearing up on his back legs. I just instinctively lit the flare the threw it towards him before I could even think. And he ran away. My heart was absolutely pounding through my chest. I survived, and I still remember it as one of the most intense moments playing TLD. With the current mechanics, it'd just have been another forgettable death.

[mystifeid]

1 hour ago, Pillock said:

Wolf attacks that are really genuinely, totally unavoidable are very, very rare, I think. In fact, I can't remember a single occasion when I honestly couldn't have done something before the wolf was on top me. Honestly, not a single one.

I should think that with the scent mechanic this would be reasonably easy to reproduce on any map with broken or hilly terrain (but I can remember it happening before then). Walk around a corner, over a hill and bang, wolf struggle. Happened twice in this game - once from scent (I think). Two out of thirty makes it reasonably rare for me. I can only remember the same thing happening (being totally surprised) with a bear once. Ever. But that might be my memory at fault.

I'm not saying that all bear attacks should be fatal. Protection from clothing now plays a part for example. Any wolf struggle I have with late game clothing is never fatal and bear attacks should probably be nearly the same given full health (still I think with a small chance of death). But early game wolf struggles are a different matter and bear attacks should be the same.

And if I was going to restart the game when attacked by a bear, why wouldn't I do the same for a wolf struggle in the early game.

Fortunately for me I find the early to mid game to be the most engaging and have no problem with being killed and starting a new game. It is called TLD after all. It's surprising then that suggestion of any extra chance or any redistribution of the chance of death is usually met by resistance and if I say that I'm truly sick of wolves being nearly the sole instrument of my demise, the stock answer is that well, we should make it easier to survive wolf attacks.

For me " instant sudden unexpected death when you thought everything was going fine is... " ...what makes the game worth playing.

[Pillock]

On 1/11/2018 at 5:16 AM, mystifeid said:

I should think that with the scent mechanic this would be reasonably easy to reproduce on any map with broken or hilly terrain (but I can remember it happening before then). Walk around a corner, over a hill and bang, wolf struggle. Happened twice in this game - once from scent (I think). Two out of thirty makes it reasonably rare for me. I can only remember the same thing happening (being totally surprised) with a bear once. Ever. But that might be my memory at fault.

I'm not saying that all bear attacks should be fatal. Protection from clothing now plays a part for example. Any wolf struggle I have with late game clothing is never fatal and bear attacks should probably be nearly the same given full health (still I think with a small chance of death). But early game wolf struggles are a different matter and bear attacks should be the same.

I think I might agree with you, if (and only if) players were given back the methods of evasion/escape for bears that we used to have, and still have for wolves.

Wolf attacks are not fatal, unless you have significantly diminished Condition already. To me, that means you're putting yourself in that position in the first place and is therefore player-error (I appreciate that it's difficult to avoid doing this in Interloper, but the point still stands, I think). With bears, you don't often stumble straight into a mauling in the same way you might stumble into a wolf struggle (that's never happened to me either), but you can relatively easily find yourself in an exposed position when a bear appears near enough to you to charge without you having the option to get away (and that has happened to me on numerous occasions). If you were on full health and you died from that, I think it would be bad gameplay design, because you'd feel as if you couldn't possibly have avoided it. Wolf deaths are always avoidable to more of an extent, because you can choose whether to risk being out and about with low Condition or to heal up when you get low enough for wolves to be a mortal danger.

I'm fine with sudden unexpected death when I thought everything was going fine, as long as I feel that the death was caused by my mistake and that I could have played it differently to survive. A bear suddenly appearing in front of me over a hill and then mauling me to death from full health before I can run away to some inaccessible log/rock/building is not avoidable as far as I see it, and therefore not a satisfactory way for the game to kill me!

[mystifeid]

7 hours ago, Pillock said:

A bear suddenly appearing in front of me over a hill and then mauling me to death from full health before I can run away to some inaccessible log/rock/building is not avoidable as far as I see it, and therefore not a satisfactory way for the game to kill me!

Surely something similar already happens like when a bear attack is immediately followed by a blizzard or even a bear attack in a blizzard. This has happened to me a couple of times. And no matter how I might have played it I was always going to die on those occasions despite what anyone else might think. Like I said, why not spare me the blizzard and let the bear kill me occasionally.

Bear attacks already seem to be very rare. Recently I had to be reckless to the point of foolishness to suffer two bear attacks in five hundred days and I think a rare chance of death in these situations would be good. At the moment in a bear attack I know for sure that I'll survive the attack and it is this knowledge that lets me do stupid things around the bear in the first place. If I knew that there was a chance, no matter how small, that I might die, I would be much more prudent around bears.

I think the last time I had a bear charge me when I didn't already know it was in the vicinity was before Interloper was released.

7 hours ago, Pillock said:

but you can relatively easily find yourself in an exposed position when a bear appears near enough to you to charge without you having the option to get away

So you've never had this happen with a wolf? But lots of times with bears? This is exactly what I've been talking about btw - the unavoidable charge but with wolves sometimes they start from so close that there is no time to even draw a bow.

 

[Pillock]

10 hours ago, mystifeid said:

So you've never had this happen with a wolf? But lots of times with bears? This is exactly what I've been talking about btw - the unavoidable charge but with wolves sometimes they start from so close that there is no time to even draw a bow.

Yeah, but the wolf attack isn't fatal unless your condition is already low - and that's on you. I've got no particular objection to bear attacks being fatal if your condition is low as well - but I would want to be able to use more defensive measures against the bear than just rifle/bow/flaregun in that case. There's also the fact that you have the chance to fight off a wolf with relatively little condition loss if you're lucky.

10 hours ago, mystifeid said:

At the moment in a bear attack I know for sure that I'll survive the attack and it is this knowledge that lets me do stupid things around the bear in the first place. If I knew that there was a chance, no matter how small, that I might die, I would be much more prudent around bears.

This part I do agree with. But again, if you've got 100% condition I don't mind that safety net being there. It's the same with wolves - they aren't going to kill you if you're in good shape beforehand. I also agree that if you get a bear attack closely followed by a blizzard, then you're very likely to die (but not certain), and that in that circumstance it's just tough luck.

The main issue with all this is that when you are on low condition, wolf attacks are far more dangerous - and I agree that the game would be improved if that were addressed in some way. Intuitively, bear attacks should always be a greater threat because of the size and power of the animal. Unless it can be passed off as a difference in their behaviour - ie. wolves are trying to kill you, whereas bears leave you alone once you go limp?

[mystifeid]

6 hours ago, Pillock said:

The main issue with all this is that when you are on low condition, wolf attacks are far more dangerous

And in the early game when clothing protection is minimal and weapon choice for a struggle is limited. I've had bare-handed struggles with wolves in the first few days of Interloper and while I have survived some, I've also been killed.

 

6 hours ago, Pillock said:

Intuitively, bear attacks should always be a greater threat because of the size and power of the animal. Unless it can be passed off as a difference in their behaviour - ie. wolves are trying to kill you, whereas bears leave you alone once you go limp?

I mean the mechanic is ok except that it is always the same. All I'd like to see in the hardest mode of this game is just a tiny bit more...

6 hours ago, Pillock said:

...tough luck.

 

[Pillock]

15 minutes ago, mystifeid said:

And in the early game when clothing protection is minimal and weapon choice for a struggle is limited. I've had bare-handed struggles with wolves in the first few days of Interloper and while I have survived some, I've also been killed.

 

I mean the mechanic is ok except that it is always the same. All I'd like to see in the hardest mode of this game is just a tiny bit more...

 

And with that, I think we finally reach some common ground!

[Ape88]

I've been able to survive damage from 2 to 4 wolf attacks starting at full health before but only 2 bear attacks can and will kill.

[Wish]

On 1/7/2018 at 12:33 AM, Revantulet said:

What is the logic here?  Is this intended?  Why?

a bear attacks me and I will be torn up, but a wolf attacks me and I die 9/10 times.

It seems like the intent is that the wolves want to kill you, but the bears are just angry with you. The bear is like "I'm going to show this upsetting creature who's boss", and the wolf is like "Hey, there's some supper!"

[cekivi]

18 hours ago, Wish said:

It seems like the intent is that the wolves want to kill you, but the bears are just angry with you. The bear is like "I'm going to show this upsetting creature who's boss", and the wolf is like "Hey, there's some supper!"

That's not a bad interpretation  

[cullam]

I think the other important aspect is that - realistic or not - it's awesome to have wolf and bear encounters feel like very different (heh) animals. For game play, having the dangers from various beasts feel unique is crucial, I think. 

[s7mar7in]

On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 4:43 PM, GreenBeing said:

weapon/tool condition have a large bearing on the outcome

@GreenBeing, This is very interesting to me also. As a new player I imagined that a sharp knife would serve me better in a wolf struggle, (as compared to a dull knife). Then I "read/heard" that tool condition has no effect in the game mechanics, (I know, don't believe everything you hear). My current play style allows tool condition to be somewhat lower to conserve whetstones...but I will be thrilled if in fact a sharp tool is now a more effective tool.

[Doc Feral]

On 1/2/2018 at 4:39 AM, Wish said:

It seems like the intent is that the wolves want to kill you, but the bears are just angry with you. The bear is like "I'm going to show this upsetting creature who's boss", and the wolf is like "Hey, there's some supper!"

That's what I think too. Bears' purpose in life is showing off how damn badass they are. This can be easily observed when a bear walks by a deer and they both don't give a damn (I've seen it happening), while wolves flee in panic when a bear is around.

My encounter with the werewolf (in my survival story) proves that if you're 100% condition you will survive a wolf attack no matter how big a failure you are. Of course the main issue with wolves is that there's always more than one around.

A determined and hungry bear would realistically be certain death, and this may be unfair.