Why are Wolf attacks Deadlier Than Bear Attacks?

[Revantulet]

What is the logic here?  Is this intended?  Why?

a bear attacks me and I will be torn up, but a wolf attacks me and I die 9/10 times.

i played with an auto clicker for a while, and felt lame so now I just avoid them or die

And I'm  not asking for an easier game -- I love the brutal challenge, but seems like the wolf damage should be capped like the bear damage is

i wonder if younger more coordinated dudes are able to click their way out of the wolf screen, but I can't.,.

Is this working as intended?

[mystifeid]

Use a hatchet. (@Timber Wolfdid some tests once on the effectiveness of the various weapons in wolf struggles. I seem to remember the hatchet being the best)

In my current game, I've had 2 bear attacks. Both times they've destroyed treasured headwear.

Also survived something like 29 wolf struggles. With a hatchet.

[Seshins]

X2 on the hatchet. I use to use the knife but would get torn up badly. Since then I’ve used the hatchet and generally come away with maybe a sprain and some torn clothing. 

[mystifeid]

23 minutes ago, Seshins said:

I use to use the knife but would get torn up badly.

Me too but it was because I handicapped myself in part by never making a hatchet. It does make things harder. No constraints in this game though.

[Samsonguy920]

The bear attack is capped because it has to be. Otherwise even at full health you'd lose your life to a bear every time.  The weight and claws alone guarantee that. The trade off for getting handed a second chance from a bear attack is your clothing is mostly destroyed.  And a fair bit of you, too.

Fighting off a wolf is difficult, but doable. I've beaten off a wolf with bare hands, and that does require earnest clicking to do so. As was stated earlier, the axe is your best weapon. You will notice it requires a lot fewer button presses to discourage a wolf with an axe, and you will likely suffer little clothing damage and probably no personal damage to worry about. Remember the name of the game is about survival. If you aren't willing to give your all to fight off a wolf, then survival is not going to happen.

Best thing for either of them is stay the hell away. Keep your eyes and ears open and don't rush into unfamiliar areas. Always look for places you can hop up to that might force the bear/wolf to find a different path to get to you, giving you room to find the next area.  At full health you can actually outrun a wolf. If you are getting fatigued or such, bridges can be your friend. I was near the rail bridge across from Carter Dam in Mystery Lake, and got surprised by a wolf. Little shit had been practicing his ninja skills. Having nothing on me, I ran for the bridge and just as I went onto it, I then made a 90 degree turn and jumped off to slip around under the bridge. That confused the wolf so much he ran off yiping.  Allowed me to make it to the dam without another care...well, until I got inside and had to worry about Fluffy(when she still inhabited the dam).

[GreenBeing]

I wish that I could find the post where someone tested various weapons against wolves, but I seem to remember that the hatchet did the most damage to the wolf, but that the hammer would get the wolf off of you quicker.

[mystifeid]

26 minutes ago, GreenBeing said:

I wish that I could find the post where someone tested various weapons against wolves, but I seem to remember that the hatchet did the most damage to the wolf, but that the hammer would get the wolf off of you quicker.

As mentioned above the someone was @Timber Wolf and here are the tests:

 

[GreenBeing]

8 hours ago, mystifeid said:

As mentioned above the someone was @Timber Wolf and here are the tests:

Those excellent tests that you linked to are showing condition loss to the player. The test that I was talking about measured the damage done to the wolf and how quickly the fight ended.

[mystifeid]

1 hour ago, GreenBeing said:

The test that I was talking about measured the damage done to the wolf and how quickly the fight ended.

How do you measure the damage done to the wolf?

[GreenBeing]

9 minutes ago, mystifeid said:

How do you measure the damage done to the wolf?

Ok, I found it. It was from a Steam thread where someone quoted from the test branch. Here it is:

Quote

From test branch:
* Knife & Improvised Knife: (PUNCTURE) Damage-dealing, puncture wounds, results in shorter Wolf bleed-out times.
* Hammer & Prybar: (SCARE) Heavy hits intended to scare the Wolf off; reduces Struggle duration to limit your damage. Non-puncturing weapon means no bleed-out.
* Hatchet & Improvised Hatchet: (SLASH) Heavy damage intended to kill the wolf; standard bleed-outs. 
* Barehanded: (DESPERATION) Low-damage, no bleed-out, better than nothing.

 

[mystifeid]

Hammer and prybar....reduces struggle duration to limit your damage??

Compared to what? Barehanded struggle?

[GreenBeing]

1 minute ago, mystifeid said:

Hammer and prybar....reduces struggle duration to limit your damage??

Compared to what? Barehanded struggle?

I took it to mean "to limit the damage that you take, by way of limiting struggle time"

[mystifeid]

Just now, GreenBeing said:

I took it to mean "to limit the damage that you take, by way of limiting struggle time"

Well, looking at @Timber Wolf's tests, the best way to limit the damage that you take is to use the hatchet.

[GreenBeing]

@mystifeid For what it is worth, here is the full discussion that I was talking about: https://steamcommunity.com/app/305620/discussions/0/1353742967809577163/

[GreenBeing]

@mystifeid Also, I just ran across this more recent info, but it does not give any sources: http://indiefaq.com/guides/21-the-long-dark.html

It is interesting because it is claiming that the weapon/tool condition have a large bearing on the outcome. Unless I missed it, I do not think that @Timber Wolf tested for that.

[mystifeid]

14 minutes ago, GreenBeing said:

Unless I missed it, I do not think that @Timber Wolf tested for that.

Try looking at the very first test. Wolf struggles with knives at 100%, 75%, 50% and 25% condition. Granted that this may have changed since but at least at that stage there is very little difference in the outcome based on the condition of the knife.

Also, has anyone seen a wolf not bleed out lately after a struggle with a hatchet?

[GreenBeing]

1 minute ago, mystifeid said:

Try looking at the very first test. Wolf struggles with knives at 100%, 75%, 50% and 25% condition. Granted that this may changed since but at least at that stage there is very little difference in the outcome based on the condition of the knife.

Ahh...I thought that was the player's condition haha... Thanks.

[Revantulet]

Thanks for all the replies, but, my bad, I should have said "Bare-Handed."

With a hatchet, or even the knife, I can survive, but the bear-handed wolf fight I die every time.

I think they should cap the damage on the bare-handed wolf struggle to be in-line with the bear "fight."

[mystifeid]

3 minutes ago, Revantulet said:

I think they should cap the damage on the bare-handed wolf struggle to be in-line with the bear "fight."

It's reasonably rare to be jumped by a wolf without warning.

With warning and without a weapon is the time to explore the various strategies for evading the struggle. Being killed by a wolf in a bare-handed struggle is fair enough I think. What might be better is if the bear attack damage was not capped.

[Timber Wolf]

16 hours ago, mystifeid said:

Well, looking at @Timber Wolf's tests, the best way to limit the damage that you take is to use the hatchet.

The hatchet has always been the best weapon for limiting damage to your character.

 

18 hours ago, GreenBeing said:

Those excellent tests that you linked to are showing condition loss to the player. The test that I was talking about measured the damage done to the wolf and how quickly the fight ended.

I haven't run any tests to determine which weapon will end the struggles the quickest, although I'm pretty sure the hatchet would be the winner.

And there is no way to test for how much damage is being done to the wolves.  I did verify that the wolves bleed out faster when a knife is used, but I don't see as enough of an advantage to select it instead of the hatchet.

 

15 hours ago, GreenBeing said:

Also, I just ran across this more recent info, but it does not give any sources: http://indiefaq.com/guides/21-the-long-dark.html

I'd like to see the data that led to the conclusion that there is a large difference between a weapon that is at 90% condition and a weapon that is at 50% condition.  As far as I know, I'm the only one that has ever provided any actual data at all on this subject.

I haven't tested weapons with different conditions for a while now, but I also haven't observed a noticeable difference during struggles in the normal course of a game.  I'm not at all worried about going into the struggle with a hatchet that is at 25%, as opposed to one that is at 100%.

 

15 hours ago, mystifeid said:

With warning and without a weapon is the time to explore the various strategies for evading the struggle. Being killed by a wolf in a bare-handed struggle is fair enough I think. What might be better is if the bear attack damage was not capped.

I completely agree.  I've always felt that some of the bear attacks should result in death, especially if my character has a lower overall condition.  

[Pillock]

1 hour ago, Timber Wolf said:

I've always felt that some of the bear attacks should result in death, especially if my character has a lower overall condition.  

I think they do, don't they?

Bear attacks, as far as I've experienced/noticed, result in loss of 90% of your current condition, plus bleeding. That means that if you're below 50% condition when the bear attacks, you're going to be left with below 5% at the end of it, and struggling against time to get a bandage on before you bleed out.

I've been killed outright by bear attacks before, or before regaining control of the character following a mauling, because of this. And I think it's a pretty good system. Maybe some similar thing could be done for wolves... at the moment you're better off being attacked by a bear than a wolf if your condition is around 50% or below. (not that you're likely to actually be in a position to make that choice!)

[mystifeid]

8 hours ago, Pillock said:

That means that if you're below 50% condition when the bear attacks, you're going to be left with below 5% at the end of it

While this has happened to me (wolf struggle followed by bear attack) it is very rare. Much more common to die from bear attack followed by bear attack. The wiki says the first thing to do following a bear attack is to apply a bandage. Actually the first thing to do is to crouch down or run to shelter to try and prevent the second attack. And yeah, I really don't mind things the way they are although I still think a small chance of death in the first bear attack is warranted.

Also, in my last attack I could've sworn I didn't lose 90% health but hey, sometimes my memory can be pretty average.

[Timber Wolf]

On 1/8/2018 at 8:44 AM, Pillock said:

Bear attacks, as far as I've experienced/noticed, result in loss of 90% of your current condition, plus bleeding. That means that if you're below 50% condition when the bear attacks, you're going to be left with below 5% at the end of it, and struggling against time to get a bandage on before you bleed out.

This is true if your character is naked, or wearing clothes that have no protection stats.   However, if you are geared up, then the results are not nearly so serious.

I just tested this a few times over and the results were very consistent.  My character had protection at 24%.   After the first bear struggle, I was down to just over 30% each time.  Then I walked right in front of the bear and was immediately mauled again.  Each time I had 8 - 9 % condition still left, plenty to get to a safe place, bandage up, get some rest and ultimately survive.

It seems to me that consecutive attacks by a bear should result in immediate death.  The main thing I don't care for in the mechanic, is how there seems to be a safeguard in place to help ensure survival of these attacks.  A safeguard that is not present in the wolf struggle mechanic.

[Timber Wolf]

On 1/8/2018 at 12:28 PM, mystifeid said:

Actually the first thing to do is to crouch down or run to shelter to try and prevent the second attack.

Most definitely.  This is always my primary concern following a bear attack.

[Pillock]

13 hours ago, Timber Wolf said:

This is true if your character is naked, or wearing clothes that have no protection stats.   However, if you are geared up, then the results are not nearly so serious.

I just tested this a few times over and the results were very consistent.  My character had protection at 24%.   After the first bear struggle, I was down to just over 30% each time.  Then I walked right in front of the bear and was immediately mauled again.  Each time I had 8 - 9 % condition still left, plenty to get to a safe place, bandage up, get some rest and ultimately survive.

It seems to me that consecutive attacks by a bear should result in immediate death.  The main thing I don't care for in the mechanic, is how there seems to be a safeguard in place to help ensure survival of these attacks.  A safeguard that is not present in the wolf struggle mechanic.

Your results seem to play out consistently with my suspicions, then? If you're getting 24% protection from the attack due to your clothes, the bear is dealing out 76% of 90% (68% if you're on 100% Condition before the attack), leaving you on ~32% afterwards; if the second attack deals out 76% of 32% (24%) you're left on about 8%.

That would mean you're maintaining the 24% clothing protection (or close to it) for the second attack? I guess that there is the thing that ought to be changed: a bear attack should probably consistently wreck up your clothes to an extent where they no longer protect you much, if at all. Then on the second attack, you'd get the full 90% damage to your 32% Condition, leaving you on ~3% and bleeding. I think that would be better.

Again though, and ignoring the clothing protection issue, if this is indeed what's happening in terms of calculations, I actually think it's quite a good system in principle. I wouldn't want to see it changed so that all bear attacks are fatal the second time round, just because. (The game doesn't - and shouldn't - know that you've recently been in a bear mauling when the second attack happens: you might meet a bear for the first time when you're on ~30% Condition for other reasons, and I don't see why the outcome should be different).

I agree that adding something similar to wolf attacks would improve the game by making it more consistent. But in that case, if a wolf does, say, ~50% damage as standard (my experience in the current version), then would it be better if they only did 50% of your current condition? Say you're on 30% Condition before a wolf attack, you'd be left on 15% afterwards - it would make it very difficult to actually die from a wolf attack, and would that be an improvement? I'm not sure it would.

I think the reasoning for having a 'safety net' for bear attacks could well be that you don't have the same avoidance measures available for bear attacks as you do for wolves. You can't use flares or torches or fire - if you're surprised by an unexpected close encounter with a bear, there's very little you can do to avoid being mauled, and instant death in that scenario could potentially be very frustrating for the player. I think that's possibly something that could be looked at (we used to be able to throw torches and flares at bears to scare them off, and it did lead to some memorable, heart-pounding moments for me in my games, so I don't really know why they changed it, personally).

It is counter-intuitive that bear attacks are less dangerous than wolf attacks if the player is already on low Condition, but I don't think there's an easy solution without doing some fairly hefty redesign to entire systems around animal behaviour, animal attacks/struggles, player defensive measures, injuries, health, condition loss and recovery.

(sorry for rambling on!)