Dev Diary - October 2017


Admin

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

As to the difference between Sandbox and Story, and the "constraints":  How else could it be really be done!?  Sandbox is that, a sandbox...and story is a story.  If Episode 1 starts with Will in Milton, what literary sense does it make for him to trot off to say, Desolation Point when his story has him doing stuff in Milton?  What would he (therefore the player) see and do there?  Even considering different paths/routes through the story, it still has to follow a something...isn't that what makes it a story.....  So why shouldn't it be constrained to such an area, or certain activities suggested or likewise constrained.  It is a balance though, I get that.

I agree, i liked the story mode like it is now, for me it looks like in the gaming world that people that shout loudest is getting heard, or we people that are happy with the game as it is, isn't good enough to say it to the game  developers.

And i think it is troublesome if game developers starts to change the game, because you can't please everybody and if you change it too much, you risk to lose some of the people that was happy about the game as it was, a good example is Hitman 2016 which i don't play anymore, because many people complained to IO-I that Agent 47 had to low health and they died a lot, IO-I gave him more health and now Agent 47 is a half-track tank, so for me the thrill is gone and i deleted the game.

I think game developers should be more aware of that this can happen.

Edited by ingrobny
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem is not "fetch quests" or the story itself. The problem is the lack of enviromental storytelling, aspect of survival, decision making and the non-existant exploring aspect. Yes, there are plotholes within the story, boring characters, bugs and so on - but even the best games have those.

The Long Dark does very poorly in these points that are a must in every open world game. Let me explain.

Exploration - You follow a path and discover a building and if it's a good level design, you automaticly want to go there and find out what this place is about. Who lived there? What happened there? What does this place tell me about the world/main story? Oh, a hidden key, i should take it and maybe it'll be useful later. And whats that up the hill? Lets have a look. Maybe that's a way out? .....  Storymode actually punishes you if you try to explore because you have to do things in the exact order as it is supposed to be. It doesn't matter what you find in a house or behind a rock. All you have to do is get tons of firewood and because of the weight limit and your needs you don't do anything else than that - collecting wood. And you do this so that grey mother tells you her boring story and you have to listen or just quit the game. You have no choice, you have to listen, you have to do what she wants and you can't say no or chose a diffrent way. Imagine you would find out yourself about her story by EXPLORING Millton. There you find a sweatter that belongs to her daughter, but you find it at the barn. You find out that family X had trouble with family Z, but their children loved each other in secret .... My god, there is so much potential.

I say this because i think Raphael is wrong in his view what has gone wrong (about critique from players). I am one of the "long time Interloper players" and i don't mind the "tutorial like" intro. Actually the very first part at the crashside was well made and fun to play. Nor am i too concerned about a bumpy release regarding bugs. Wether you like the story or not, isn't so much important for a good game. It is about how you tell the story.  Storymode ignores everything that makes Survivalmode so unique and strong and is just bad regarding storytelling. There is no connection between survival and the world/story of Storymode. You get punished for exploring because places you discover don't tell a story but are there to be visited at a specific point in the game. You can find items, but they don't  have anything to do with anything. The world is beatiful, but empty. There is nothing to discover or explore. You have to go there because the game forces you, not because you want. And that's the issue.

 

  • Upvote 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 25.10.2017 at 5:50 PM, MueckE said:

Exploration - You follow a path and discover a building and if it's a good level design, you automaticly want to go there and find out what this place is about. Who lived there? What happened there? What does this place tell me about the world/main story? Oh, a hidden key, i should take it and maybe it'll be useful later. And whats that up the hill? Lets have a look. Maybe that's a way out? .....  Storymode actually punishes you if you try to explore because you have to do things in the exact order as it is supposed to be. It doesn't matter what you find in a house or behind a rock. All you have to do is get tons of firewood and because of the weight limit and your needs you don't do anything else than that - collecting wood. And you do this so that grey mother tells you her boring story and you have to listen or just quit the game. You have no choice, you have to listen, you have to do what she wants and you can't say no or chose a diffrent way. Imagine you would find out yourself about her story by EXPLORING Millton. There you find a sweatter that belongs to her daughter, but you find it at the barn. You find out that family X had trouble with family Z, but their children loved each other in secret .... My god, there is so much potential.

I say this because i think Raphael is wrong in his view what has gone wrong (about critique from players). I am one of the "long time Interloper players" and i don't mind the "tutorial like" intro. Actually the very first part at the crashside was well made and fun to play. Nor am i too concerned about a bumpy release regarding bugs. Wether you like the story or not, isn't so much important for a good game. It is about how you tell the story.  Storymode ignores everything that makes Survivalmode so unique and strong and is just bad regarding storytelling. There is no connection between survival and the world/story of Storymode. You get punished for exploring because places you discover don't tell a story but are there to be visited at a specific point in the game. You can find items, but they don't  have anything to do with anything. The world is beatiful, but empty. There is nothing to discover or explore. You have to go there because the game forces you, not because you want. And that's the issue.

I started playing video games in early 80's, back then there wasn't any internet of forums, we had to play the game like the developers made it.

I think the story mode was intended to teach us to how to survive in The Long Dark survival mode, it was never intended to be what you are describing and that is a problem with internet and forums today, i think game developers are more or less forced to change their games maybe against their liking, just to satisfy people that wants more.

And remember this is a developer studio with ca 20 employees, there is now way they have the recourse to meet the high expectations to some of The Long Dark owners, this game was never intended to be a full fledge RPG like Fallout or The Elder Scrolls and i'm okay with that, because i know what kind a game i'm playing and the story mode is good enough for this kind of game, i even liked to help Grey Mother and Jeremiah and i was looking forward to do this again in episode 3 and 4, i was hoping the next npc i needed to help would teach me how to make a bow and in episode 4 a npc who needed help would teach me how to make the bear jacket.

We can already see the backside of the whish for a greater story mode now, since the story is going to change and it is now delayed and i will not be surprised that the people that wanted a better story mode is starting to complain about this delay later on, in my opinion Hinterland should make it clear what the story is about and let the story mode be like it is now, then they have more time to work on bugs and future add ons.

This is just my thoughts about this :).

Edited by ingrobny
  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah let's not start holding this game to the same production standards as an AAA studio, I'm glad they're doing the game in their way instead of trying to make the same stuff as everyone else. I like niche games like this, and trying to make it something it's not won't be good for anyone, because those people that want more and more are never satisfied and will always tell you they know how to do it better. 

Personally I already got more out of this game than I ever expected back when I bought it in early access, Hinterland has done amazing work, especially for such a small team. If they start aspiring to compete with games like Fallout or The Witcher it may well collapse upon itself.

  • Upvote 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hackfleisch said:

Yeah let's not start holding this game to the same production standards as an AAA studio, I'm glad they're doing the game in their way instead of trying to make the same stuff as everyone else. I like niche games like this, and trying to make it something it's not won't be good for anyone, because those people that want more and more are never satisfied and will always tell you they know how to do it better. 

Personally I already got more out of this game than I ever expected back when I bought it in early access, Hinterland has done amazing work, especially for such a small team. If they start aspiring to compete with games like Fallout or The Witcher it may well collapse upon itself.

I couldn't agree more :). Hiterland have made a unique game and i have never played anything like this before and i love it, it is a simple game yet it is very intense, scary and fun at the same time, when i start to play the survival mode i usally burn away 3-5 hours in no time, because the game is so involving and you know if you die, the weeks of playing will be gone and you need to start a fresh game again, The Long Dark is a awesome game.

We need games like this, not a Fallout or TES etc copy cat.

Just look at what Ubisoft are doing, they are turning all games into Far Cry, i was so disappointed about the latest ghost Recon: Wildlands, it wasn't Ghost Recon at all, so i deleted the game after an hour, that was 500,- NOK in the garbage and now Assassin Creed will also go full open world, so in my opinion Ubisoft have destroyed the fun with Far Cry and Ghost Recon by turning all games into a Far Cry clone.

 

 

 

 

Edited by ingrobny
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, MrsmZinja said:

my question is i have read other people saying they had to restart after every update and lost all progress is this something i should worry about or am i good to continue trying to get faithful cartographer, because i only just finished mapping desolation point.

Hi, and welcome to the forums!

It depends.. some things you need to start again, and some you don't.

Regarding your situation about achieving faithful cartographer, this is currently being investigated by Hinterland. See this post by Mel:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/25/2017 at 3:06 AM, Wayfarer said:

I only got to playing a little of the story when it came out, and I liked what I played.  I haven't gone back just yet (among other places, I went visiting Hinterland's part of Canada instead :D)  I didn't really follow the details of the release, so wasn't particularly aware of the problems.  What I'd perceived was good...  There was the announcement about August release, then it was August, I had the download in Steam, then I played it some.  I did stay away from the forums etc because I didn't want to see any spoilies ;)

 

Whether the devs will see these posts directly or not, not sure, but either way:

Negative reviews and criticisms aren't great to receive, but can be valuable, as you've clearly recognised and utilised.  Much respect to you all at Hinterland though, I reckon you've produced something very special.  My old-person-sounding generalisation is that "gamers these days", with Steam and such like, there's so much demanding negativity, seemingly for the sake it.  TLD is an example of early access that's worked.  Seems it's a risky business; a lot don't see 1.0, or if they do, don't deliver what was promised or intended, for whatever reasons.

 

As to the difference between Sandbox and Story, and the "constraints":  How else could it be really be done!?  Sandbox is that, a sandbox...and story is a story.  If Episode 1 starts with Will in Milton, what literary sense does it make for him to trot off to say, Desolation Point when his story has him doing stuff in Milton?  What would he (therefore the player) see and do there?  Even considering different paths/routes through the story, it still has to follow a something...isn't that what makes it a story.....  So why shouldn't it be constrained to such an area, or certain activities suggested or likewise constrained.  It is a balance though, I get that.

If it's fully open, like Skyrim, they've done it so I suppose it can be done, but how many problems, extra work and resource does that introduce and require?  Maybe sections of logical, progressive narrative could be circumvented.  Maybe if you wandered out of the "current" area, you'd just end up going through a region where there's nothing happening.  Or anything else that just doesn't make sense, which could ruin the experience as much as people claim invisible barriers and potentially-obvious debris/blockages do.

 

Anyways, all the best for what's next.  Have fun with it :)

It won't allow for freedom that destroys the chronology of the Story. But more freedom in let's say, smaller actions. Like being able to refuse NPC's or actually make the choice to help them. Things like that. 

Also while were talking about DP in Story Mode, I can confirm that it will be in Story Mode along with Coastal Highway after doing some digging through game files while not actually digging through game files. (I won't get detailed)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/25/2017 at 11:50 AM, MueckE said:

The problem is not "fetch quests" or the story itself. The problem is the lack of enviromental storytelling, aspect of survival, decision making and the non-existant exploring aspect. Yes, there are plotholes within the story, boring characters, bugs and so on - but even the best games have those.

The Long Dark does very poorly in these points that are a must in every open world game. Let me explain.

Exploration - You follow a path and discover a building and if it's a good level design, you automaticly want to go there and find out what this place is about. Who lived there? What happened there? What does this place tell me about the world/main story? Oh, a hidden key, i should take it and maybe it'll be useful later. And whats that up the hill? Lets have a look. Maybe that's a way out? .....  Storymode actually punishes you if you try to explore because you have to do things in the exact order as it is supposed to be. It doesn't matter what you find in a house or behind a rock. All you have to do is get tons of firewood and because of the weight limit and your needs you don't do anything else than that - collecting wood. And you do this so that grey mother tells you her boring story and you have to listen or just quit the game. You have no choice, you have to listen, you have to do what she wants and you can't say no or chose a diffrent way. Imagine you would find out yourself about her story by EXPLORING Millton. There you find a sweatter that belongs to her daughter, but you find it at the barn. You find out that family X had trouble with family Z, but their children loved each other in secret .... My god, there is so much potential.

I say this because i think Raphael is wrong in his view what has gone wrong (about critique from players). I am one of the "long time Interloper players" and i don't mind the "tutorial like" intro. Actually the very first part at the crashside was well made and fun to play. Nor am i too concerned about a bumpy release regarding bugs. Wether you like the story or not, isn't so much important for a good game. It is about how you tell the story.  Storymode ignores everything that makes Survivalmode so unique and strong and is just bad regarding storytelling. There is no connection between survival and the world/story of Storymode. You get punished for exploring because places you discover don't tell a story but are there to be visited at a specific point in the game. You can find items, but they don't  have anything to do with anything. The world is beatiful, but empty. There is nothing to discover or explore. You have to go there because the game forces you, not because you want. And that's the issue.

 

The game has TONS of environmental story telling. The problem is that we LACK the ability to see that. Every single note found around shows a bit of backstory to the world. Every location has it's own story but needs a little imagination to actually see it. Every corpse laying around even. The aspects of survival are very much there but since Story Mode is made SUPER EASY it doesn't seem that way for veteran players. You are right when you say there's little decision making, MEANINGFUL decision making that is. 

Feel free to discuss. I'm all ears.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a player that was new to The Long Dark, I really enjoyed some of the tutorial mechanics in Episode One. It really helped me get a grasp on how to play and therefore helped me to enjoy the game as much as I do today.  I can truly say that I haven’t enjoyed a video game THIS MUCH in quite some time.  Keep up the good work!!! Excited for December!!!

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, ROBOxROBERTS said:

As a player that was new to The Long Dark, I really enjoyed some of the tutorial mechanics in Episode One. It really helped me get a grasp on how to play and therefore helped me to enjoy the game as much as I do today.  I can truly say that I haven’t enjoyed a video game THIS MUCH in quite some time.  Keep up the good work!!! Excited for December!!!

Same here, i had never played TLD so i died so many times in episode 1 when i was trying to find Milton and for the first time in a long time in gaming i had to think what to do next, what do i need to survive, i need water, some food and fire, so i had to make a plan to survive, i have to stop up earlier and make a fire, melt snow and boil water etc and when i follow my plan, i survived :) and finally i saw Milton in the distance, episode 2 was a bit easier, maybe because episode 1 learned me how to survive, the bear quest was a bit hard, but enjoyable and boy was i happy when i managed to kill him, thanks to Grey Mother and Jeremiah i learned how to surivie in the survival mode voyager difficulty.

One of many things i like with this game is that it dosen't hold your hand, i have to figure out stuff for myself, that's rare in games today :).

 If you die, it dosen't matter how long you have played, it's over and you have to start a new game, similar to Hitman 2016 Elusive Targets which i loved, you had one chance, if you died it was all over.

I will play the story mode from the beginning again after Hinterland have changed it, but i hope they don't change it too much.

Edited by ingrobny
  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 30.10.2017 at 10:34 AM, ingrobny said:

thanks to Grey Mother and Jeremiah i learned how to surivie in the survival mode voyager difficulty.

One of many things i like with this game is that it dosen't hold your hand, i have to figure out stuff for myself, that's rare in games today :).

 

Wintermute is doing well in that regard. Both episodes teach you the basics of survival in TLD and it is doing it in a balanced way for new players, that's true. But that's not the issue. See, if you look at it objectivly than Wintermute so far is nothing more than a smaller version of the "whiteout challange" and a 1 to 1 copy of "the hunted part II" with a few cutscenes. The main point of TLD, not taking the hand of the player, is simply not there when it comes to the story.

Hinterland could have done this diffrently without any more effort. I can give you an example how it could've been done ( 1 of a million possibilities).

You arrive in Millton, you try to enter the house but you get shot at (maybe even wounded) and you simply can't enter. So you go away and either continue finding a way out of Millton (which you will find out isn't there) or start exploring Millton right away. By doing this you discover slowly the story behind the person who shot you and because this person seems to be your only chance to get out of Millton (that you discovered by yourself by exploring) you go there again. With the knowledge about the person and Millton you can now talk to her and at least gain trust so she doesn't shoot you anymore and talks to you.

This would be an example of how you could tell the story by actually playing the game and at the same time reward exploring. You discover the story about grey mother yourself, so you can have empathy and you also have a proper reason why you couldn't just keep on moving in the beginning. So everything would make sense. And this is no opposition to Raphael's wish to tell "his story" - it still is his story that is been told, but it is the player who discovers it by playing and not a few lines you have to read. Again, that's just an example but i think the point of the missing storytelling gets clear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4.11.2017 at 11:04 AM, MueckE said:

Hinterland could have done this diffrently without any more effort. I can give you an example how it could've been done ( 1 of a million possibilities).

You arrive in Millton, you try to enter the house but you get shot at (maybe even wounded) and you simply can't enter. So you go away and either continue finding a way out of Millton (which you will find out isn't there) or start exploring Millton right away. By doing this you discover slowly the story behind the person who shot you and because this person seems to be your only chance to get out of Millton (that you discovered by yourself by exploring) you go there again. With the knowledge about the person and Millton you can now talk to her and at least gain trust so she doesn't shoot you anymore and talks to you.

This would be an example of how you could tell the story by actually playing the game and at the same time reward exploring. You discover the story about grey mother yourself, so you can have empathy and you also have a proper reason why you couldn't just keep on moving in the beginning. So everything would make sense. And this is no opposition to Raphael's wish to tell "his story" - it still is his story that is been told, but it is the player who discovers it by playing and not a few lines you have to read. Again, that's just an example but i think the point of the missing storytelling gets clear.

But the thing is that Hinterland made the story out of 1 of those 1 million possibilities and some people didn't like it and i would be surprised if that didn't happen to your story as well, the point is that no matter how a game studio make their game, it will always be people who ask for more or changes, the problem with changing the game is that you can lose some of the gamers who was happy with how it was before, it's simply impossible to satisfy everybody. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 24.10.2017 at 0:08 AM, admin said:

This update will add a few things we know you’re waiting for — for example, Milton as a Survival Mode region, the Moose — as well as a few things you may not be expecting

Could it be a moose hat? I'm not expecting that :D, but i whish for a fur hat of some sort :), but not like this :o:D:

Bilderesultat for moose hat

Edited by ingrobny
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I just started playing The Long Dark about 2 weeks ago. I really love it so far. I made it to coastal highway from mystery lake now trying to head back to mystery lake, I am playing on pilgrim mode for now. I am excited to here about moose coming to the game, hopefully with their own resources too, meat, fur, ect. I had actually thought it would immersive to add in moose along with beavers and beaver traps. Though I don't know how it would work for beavers because all of the lakes are frozen. So I don't know if that is doable. but apart from that I can think of a few requests. Make it so that it shows the gloves your player is wearing while you hold a gun, stone, flare or flare gun. With the exception of mittens ofcoarse because you can't shoot a rifle with a mittens on. Also, I think it would be cool to add in a third person view option. I don't know how big of a development project that would be though. But I'll leave these ideas out there anyways. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also I would like to mention because someone mentioned multiplayer and that "it cannot work". I DO believe that multiplayer could work. You would just have to make it work like minecraft were the other online player would have to sleep on a bed at the same time you do. In order to sleep. Or you could remove tiredness altogether from that (online) survival mode.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@XAlaskan_420X This has been Hinterland's position on multiplayer for 3 years now.  I suppose they could change that position.  But I highly doubt they could follow through...

"The Long Dark was designed from the beginning to be a single-player experience and we don't have any plans to add multiplayer. It doesn't quite fit with type of experience we are trying to build and yes, the technical challenges of trying to add multiplayer to the existing game would be pretty significant.

However we do understand many people are interested in a multiplayer experience, and don't fault anyone for finding the idea compelling (it IS fun to imagine). We've seen quite a few requests for it, and it might be something we consider for a future game -- but not this one."

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great quote, @selfless, technically with the current game, everything thats not in real time would be a super long loading bar until someone else did an action as well, (kinda like that one mobile game called Blockheads). Harvesting, sleeping, waiting, forging, crafting, cooking, and repairing all would turn the game into a loading screen simulation.

I do like the suggestion of showing gloves on your character and your current coat's sleeves. And maybe when the rifle is equiped it has to play an animation of the player taking his right hand's mitten off or pulling off the part the covers the fingers if its one of those cool hybrid gloves. It doesnt really bother me too much however.

Also, welcome to the forums @XAlaskan_420X!

 

 

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, selfless said:

@XAlaskan_420X This has been Hinterland's position on multiplayer for 3 years now.  I suppose they could change that position.  But I highly doubt they could follow through...

Except that, as others have noted, Hinterland have recently been seeking to employ somebody specifically with experience in coding multiplayer games.. so I suspect they're at least exploring possibilities.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now